New Blaster Secondary: Martial Manipulation
By
Acroyear2,
Posted on: 2010-02-13 18:33 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Really liking this and your reasonings behind it. Was thinking of a few changes though:|
Originally Posted by twelfth
Okay, I'm gonna do a modification and combination of Ransim and Raithnor_Mal's suggestions into what I'm calling Combat Manipulation:
Combat Manipulation is about going into a combat situation and being well prepared to take on what comes your way by manipulating the opponent or the situation to your advantage. It has its basis in martial arts, but adapts minor tool usage, and some street saavy to make the user a force to be reckoned with even if they actually use very little direct force. 1 - Bola Snare: Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Immobilize or Slow, -DEF 2 - Storm Kick: Melee, Moderate DMG (Smash) 4 - Combat Senses: Toggle AOE Debuff/Self Buff(Moderate Foe -To Hit; slight self +Regen) 10 - Knuckle Duster: Melee, High DMG(Smash), Foe KnockUp 16 - Tiger's Eye: Self +DMG, +To-Hit 20 - Blinding- or Sleeping Powder: Ranged (Cone), Foe Confuse or Sleep (not sure on this), -To-Hit, -Perception. 28 - Roomsweeper: PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Knockdown. 35 - Spirit Shout: PBAoE Terrorize, minor DMG (Psi) 38 - Personal Best: Click, +75% EndRdx +75% Regen, +Recharge My concern with the prior posts is that most of the suggestions have been OMG BLAPPER damage-oriented, when most of the Blaster sets are not geared toward hella tons of damage*. Rather, secondaries are usually best described as alternate strategies to your Primary Blast set. It's about versatility and mitigation, in general (work with me here). So. You have the above. * Yeah, I know Fire Manip is about damage, and EM feels like it is while in play, but go with me here Here's the thinking I have behind these: T1: Ranged Immobilize. Unfortunately it might need a new animation, but 5 of 6 of the secondaries have a Ranged Immobilize. That's really what this should be. Keeps enemies controlled at a distance. I added in a -DEF component for what I imagine is actually a minimal damage effect. Alternatively it could be a respectable slow power with same -DEF. Surprising we haven't seen bolas in the game yet, they're pretty standard Utility-Belt items. Alternatively, a "Boomerang" stun, which could use a very slight change to the Throwing Knives animation. T2: Melee Damage. I think Storm Kick is basically on the money here. Maybe rename it to something not obviously a clone of MA (perhaps using MA-Alt animation). T3: This is basically an inverted Rise to the Challenge. In most sets, this is a Toggle with some utility. In some cases this is Damage, others not. I think RttC is a great power and would be easily placed in here, plus it plays into the idea of this powerset being about "controlling the combat". Inverting the emphasis on -To Hit and +Regen makes it a bit more consistent with Blaster rather than standard melee types. T4: Damage, with some secondary soft control. Nothing more to say here. Crane Kick is the inspiration here, but since I see this as being a bit more punchy, I think Knock Up is a decent mitigation. Maybe Dial down Damage and crank up Recharge so you're offsetting the fact that Knock Up does not push enemies away. T5: THIS IS WHERE YOU PUT BUILD UP. All sets except Devices and Energy Manip put it at 16. This is obviously where the devs want BU, don't mess with it. Devices doesn't have BU, and EM's focus is self-buffs rather than enemy debuffs. T6: More mitigation here. I couldn't decide whether this should be a confuse or a sleep. If its a confuse, it sorta seems odd to make it -ToHit (cause then the mobs couldn't hit each other), but -Perception seems okay on other sides. The -ToHit should synergize with Combat Senses. If this is a sleep, the debuffs should persist even if they are attacked. T7 - This is just a non-MA specific version of Dragon's Tail. If we were going for new animations, I'd totally go for a Spinning Clothesline effect, but Dragon's Tail is good enough. Alt animation could be that mid-air spin and ground punch thing that I can't remember the name to. T8 - The T8 is really what I was having a hard time with. What is slotted here varies from secondary to secondary. I decided to go with another moderate control. There's not much resistance to Terrorize, and adding some minor Psi damage seems to make sense in regard to demoralizing enemies. Not sure on the animation here, but between the Howl animation or Psychic Shockwave or something like that, there's something existing that will serve. T9 - Pulling this from Raithnor Mal's suggestion: "Similar to Energize from Electric Armor without the heal", renamed from "Second Wind" above, add recharge instead of heal to make it a reasonable T9 power. For balance purposes this might end crash or have a hefty recharge. Animation wise I anticipate the MotG/Strength of Will FistPump or something like that. Anyway. Up for discussion. |
- Change Combat Senses from Moderate Foe -To Hit; slight self +Regen to Moderate Foe -To Hit; slight self +Speed and Recharge for every foe in range. Essentially an alternate for Against All Odds. I think it has a better vibe with the move name since you're gaining more of a boost as more people are attacking you and would explicitly make you move and attack faster. This would help Dual Pistols preserve that Equilibrium vibe while being nice in it's own right.
- Instead of Blinding or Sleeping Powder add "Chaotic Brawling", a PBAOE confuse click. I think a confuse would be more thematic than a sleep as far as the fight being so furious that enemies accidentally hit each other. This and the PBAOE knockdown would be good setups for Hail of Bullets.
- Replace Spirit Shout with a Power Boost clone. It would be something to help out Swap Ammo and would flow well with other primaries.
- Rename Combat Manipulation as Combat Training
With they would do something like this.
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Hmm. This isn't bad, gets into that discussion we were having earlier about making a Quickness-Hack. A combination of RttC/AAO/Quickness sounds like it'd be unique enough to pitch as a reasonable power.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Really liking this and your reasonings behind it. Was thinking of a few changes though:
[LIST][*] Change Combat Senses from Moderate Foe -To Hit; slight self +Regen to Moderate Foe -To Hit; slight self +Speed and Recharge for every foe in range. Essentially an alternate for Against All Odds. I think it has a better vibe with the move name since you're gaining more of a boost as more people are attacking you and would explicitly make you move and attack faster. This would help Dual Pistols preserve that Equilibrium vibe while being nice in it's own right. |
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| [*] Instead of Blinding or Sleeping Powder add "Chaotic Brawling", a PBAOE confuse click. I think a confuse would be more thematic than a sleep as far as the fight being so furious that enemies accidentally hit each other. This and the PBAOE knockdown would be good setups for Hail of Bullets. |
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| [*] Replace Spirit Shout with a Power Boost clone. It would be something to help out Swap Ammo and would flow well with other primaries. |
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| [*] Rename Combat Manipulation as Combat Training |
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this would be a great idea. right now all we have is energy manipulation which i've been using since the game came out or electric. This would be be good for a natural concept and sounds like it would compliment dual pistols perfectly... especially based on the "source material" this set seems inspired by.
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Not from where I sit.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
No no no, Pistol Blappers. There's a difference.
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Look. Like I said before, I get where this is coming from. And it's cute... in the same sort of way as a kid who's been told he can't have a cookie trying to sneak half of one out of the jar.
But it's not going to happen.
No melee characters with pistols.
It's been asked for more times than I can count over the years (sometimes by me), and every time the Devs have said no. Every time.
Give it up already. You're wasting your time. You're wasting their time.
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I'm only barely invested in this argument, but I think you misread the words of the developers. After all, you can, as of this beta test, now have a character that swings Dual Pistols around in a crazy gun-fu sort of way, and then turn around and use an Energy Melee attack to punch a dude in the face. By the logic you're following, there is zero difference in punching a dude in the face with an energy fist versus kicking them in the face with a martial arts strike, because you're a pistol user that also does melee attacks.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Not from where I sit.
Look. Like I said before, I get where this is coming from. And it's cute... in the same sort of way as a kid who's been told he can't have a cookie trying to sneak half of one out of the jar. But it's not going to happen. No melee characters with pistols. It's been asked for more times than I can count over the years (sometimes by me), and every time the Devs have said no. Every time. Give it up already. You're wasting your time. You're wasting their time. |
What the developers have said many times (and I fully agree with them) is that melee classes will not get Dual Pistols.
A lot of people were specifically asking for Dual Pistols to be given to Scrappers. This is an awful idea. Every time someone in this thread tries to suggest their amended version of the Martial Manipulation/Training/Whatever powerset and add in a defensive toggle or self heal from the Stalker Ninjutsu set, I facepalm myself and then utter a quick curse of carpal tunnel syndrome so they'll quit typing garbage.
But there is no reason there shouldn't be a Martial Arts-styled secondary for Blasters. They honestly should have had one when the game came out. They had energy punches, fire punches, electric punches, ice punches and... gadgets. They also already had a Martial Arts set for Scrappers to use, with plenty of secondary effects to make an effective Blaster secondary through the varied use of stuns, knockback and knockdowns. Add in a couple other powers that aren't specifically defense-oriented (as Ransim has done with Caltrops and Blinding Power), and you've got a set that theoretically performs on par with all the others while bringing a much-needed Natural Origin flair to the Blaster secondaries, to pair up with Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols.
That's what this is about. It's not about smacking people with pistols (for the same reason there's no Shield Melee powerset)--it's about allowing players to make a Natural-themed Blaster without also forcing them to be a gadget user.
Here's the kicker (no pun intended): at the very beginning, when I said I'm only barely invested in this? That's because I don't play Blasters. I would very likely never use the set, but I can see how other people would be attracted to it, and also that it can be balanced and cobbled together from existing powers which would thus require much less developer time (not going to estimate how much, because then I'd make Castle and Synapse facepalm
). Sometimes a good idea is just a good idea, whether it affects you or not.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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Well put, Chad.
The thing to keep in mind is that (outside of Devices, which is sort of the odd man out), all Blaster secondaries have at least two "within melee" attacks (by which I mean the targets have to be within melee distance. For example, Fire Sword is melee, and Fire Sword Circle is PBAOE. While FSC checks against AoE defense, it is still only targeting things within a relatively confined range.)
Also, no Blaster secondaries have any heals, self-heals, or major defense/resistance boosts. Yes, Devices has Cloaking Device. After attacking, it's only a 1.75% defense bonus. Given that Devices also has two powers which require placement in order to work, and no "within melee" attacks, again, it's the odd man out.
So, if the Devs were to make a new secondary for Blasters along the lines of a more natural sort of attack (as in no glowy fists, summoning fire, etc.) it would probably not have self-heals, major defense/resistance boosts, etc.
But just because they haven't said that they're making one does not mean that they're not considering it or even working on it. Stop asking for the moon and stars, and stay civil and reasonable (or some facsimile thereof).
To satisfy the people who want Ninjitsu heals, defensive toggles, self buffs in the set or whatever on their blasters, we might as well push for a Martial Arts themed Ancillary pool while we're at it =P
Those belong there at least.
I'd go along with something like this. /signed
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Alright since we're open now I'm going to ask Niviene to move this thread to the public suggestions forum.
Thanks Niviene for the thread move!
-The most important factor of this set is that most of its attacks not cause redraw. This means focus on kicks over punches, and if an attack is a punch, set it up to punch with a pistol, a bow, or an assault rifle in hand.
-This is a set that needs to exist. Absolutely.
-It should still try and follow most of the 'basic' Manipulation setup. Start with an Immobilize, then some melee attacks including an AoE, Build Up at 5th tier, an AoE toggle at some point in there, etc. I mostly like what Twelfth did with it.
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If you're really going to go forward with this, first, drop the "Manipulation." It's silly in this context, an artifact of when blaster secondaries were mostly elemental powers. We don't have "Device Manipulation."
It's still, IMO, an attempt to shove/sneak Pistol Scrapping into the Blaster AT/powersets, and I think I will actually be disappointed if the Devs end up allowing it.
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I admitted the name was lame. I just couldn't come up with anything and it got the idea across. The name Self Defense IMO isn't a bad one that was offered.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
If you're really going to go forward with this, first, drop the "Manipulation." It's silly in this context, an artifact of when blaster secondaries were mostly elemental powers. We don't have "Device Manipulation."
It's still, IMO, an attempt to shove/sneak Pistol Scrapping into the Blaster AT/powersets, and I think I will actually be disappointed if the Devs end up allowing it. |
Honestly if you're upset with blasters scrapping you should have been long upset over every other blaster secondary that provides melee attacks, which is... pretty much all of them except Dev AFAIK. NRG is just the biggest offender when it comes to being a blapper.
But if blasters didn't have blapping sets prior the term Blapper wouldn't even exist.
Honestly I want a set like this for a single kick/knockback and utility powers. I don't need all of the kicks, though a sweeping knockdown like dragon's tail would be nice. I just don't want to be stuck to using "gadgets" or have glowing hands to be a natural theme character. And I think thats really the motivation behind something like this, because we're surely not going to get a secondary like the VEAT secondary powers.
I'm also even ok with the redraw though I know some aren't.
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Caltrops here instead.|
Originally Posted by ransim
Martial Manipulation 1 - Thunder Kick, Melee, Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Disorient |
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| 2 - Storm Kick, Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash) |
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4 - Focus Chi, Self +DMG, +To-Hit 10 - Crane Kick, Melee, High DMG(Smash), Foe Knockback |
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| 16 - Caltrops, Ranged (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Lethal), Foe -SPD, -Jump |
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| 20 - Cobra Strike, Melee, Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Disorient |
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28 - Smoke Flash, PBAoE, Foe Placate 35 - Blinding Powder, Ranged (Cone), Foe Sleep, Confuse, -To-Hit, -Perception 38 - Dragon's Tail, PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Knockdown Notes:
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A) self-buff
B) help you get OUT of melee
the replacements above take out the pure-damage attacks and replaces them with theme appropriate mitigation style attacks
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Its also a ninja device thus it fits with the Martial arts "theme" like blinding powder and smoke bomb.|
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
NO Caltrops. It's part of Devices.
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I have no issue with powers that are thematic myself, a few people have recommended decent alternatives though. Like a perception/to-hit auto power, or a minor version of quickness.
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There is no precedent for not getting a power just because another set has it. If anything, there is precedent for a new set getting a power even though another set has it if the fit is thematic. Fast Healing and Quick Recovery are in both Willpower and Regen (Reconstruction is in both for Stalkers).|
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
NO Caltrops. It's part of Devices.
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Of course, even if there was a problem with that, you could just as easily give it a different name and have the same functional benefits similar to how Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch are virtually identical to Energy Punch and Bone Smasher.
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What you're saying here is pure preference. There is nothing stopping a manipulation set from loving the crap out of melee. Fire Manipulation has only a single ranged attack; everything else is melee and a good deal of it is pure damage. Elec Manip is similarly designed with a heavy emphasis on melee damage and a bit of melee range utility. If anything, the existing manipulation sets have demonstrated that they're supposed to be light on buffing and evenly split between control (with special emphasis on soft control rather than hard) and melee damage.
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Originally Posted by Lycanus
You want more mitigation in a blaster secondary and less damage. Pretty much all the blaster secondaries should do one of two things:
A) self-buff B) help you get OUT of melee the replacements above take out the pure-damage attacks and replaces them with theme appropriate mitigation style attacks |
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I agree. While I tend to prefer playing /energy blasters, which are big on self-buffs and getting you out of melee, /energy is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to blaster secondaries. New secondaries shouldn't necessarily be patterned after that.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
What you're saying here is pure preference. There is nothing stopping a manipulation set from loving the crap out of melee. Fire Manipulation has only a single ranged attack; everything else is melee and a good deal of it is pure damage. Elec Manip is similarly designed with a heavy emphasis on melee damage and a bit of melee range utility. If anything, the existing manipulation sets have demonstrated that they're supposed to be light on buffing and evenly split between control (with special emphasis on soft control rather than hard) and melee damage.
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@Valerika
Please excuse the boring names.
Defensive Kick 1 Melee, Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Knockback
Crippling Axe Kick 2 Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Immobilize, -SPD, -Fly
Focus Chi 4 Self +DMG, +To-Hit
Smoke Grenade 10 Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -Perception, -To-Hit
Focus Spirit 16 Self End Discount
Cobra Strike 20 Melee, Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Disorient
Dragon's Tail 28 PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Knockdown
Eagle's Claw 35 Melee, Superior DMG(Smash), Foe Disorient, +Special
Hundred Palms/Defensive Dance 38 PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Disorient, Self +DEF(ALL)
The first power would be a weak version of Crane Kick, simulating Power Thrust.
Crippling Axe Kick would be offered early, although that doesn't really address the range concern.
Focus Chi would also be offered early simply as personal preference.
Smoke Grenade might be a little out of place thematically, and it might also be inappropriate with the Tier 9 power.
Focus Spirit would just be a renamed Conserve Power.
Cobra Strike is awesome. Compared to Stun, though, it might animate to quickly.
Dragon Tail to provide a little PBAoE damage, and also some mitigation in the form of Knockdown. Maybe it could be renamed and changed to Knockback.
Eagle's Claw should probably be renamed, but functionally it would work much like Total Focus.
Hundred Palms is inspired by Hail of Bullets. Something dramatic and fast, lots of footwork and palms to chins. Essentially Cobra Strike + Hail of Bullets. The Defense bonus would only last for as long as the animation runs.
I suggest that you rename it.
Instead of Martial Manipulation...call it...
Self Defense.
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Self Defense was recommended earlier on in the thread...|
Originally Posted by Vitality
I suggest that you rename it.
Instead of Martial Manipulation...call it... Self Defense. |
I should update the OP.
*headdesk*
You're very late to the party!