This is a bit of a hunch but i suspect the demographics of the playerbase has an impact on the supply/demand equation too. Things do indeed seem a bit quiet at the minute and I suspect that proportionally more casual players than long term vets have quit or are taking a break. It's the long term vets that are more likely to be serious farmers (or just happily plodding along with 50's generating loads of inf) so if the playerbase is (for example) 50% down the amount of inf generation is unlikely to be 50% down too.
Supply however will be forced in the other direction. Vet's are a lot more likely to be interested in high end builds and so will be shopping for the sought after shinies. A casual player is also a lot more likely to sell a uber shiny drop for fat inf to spend on more reasonably priced stuff, a vet will likely go straight to the market and see how much inf they need to farm to afford the other 5 of the set.
This is a gross oversimplification and as I say it's based on a hunch but I'd say supply of inf and supply/demand for drops doesn't have a linear relationship with sub numbers. Also as various others have mentioned inf grows on trees, shiny desirable stuff grows on bushes that are harder to find...
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One question is whether people leaving the game are doing so (on average) with lots of influence, or whether they are doing so having spent most of their influence on kitting out toons, leaving that influence in other people's pockets.|
Originally Posted by parabola_EU
This is a gross oversimplification and as I say it's based on a hunch but I'd say supply of inf and supply/demand for drops doesn't have a linear relationship with sub numbers.
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I think I shall decline to bash my head on the concrete wall of the OP's total incomprehension.
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I'm going to try this one more time, because the OP quoted [and misunderstood] my post. |
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
THIS THIS THIS
My point is best made by this quote. Getting a purple is not making anything cause you have to "sell" it only killing an npc generates. So with less people where is all this "NEW" influ/infamy coming from Example i got a apoc dmg recipe. Its awsome but I didnt get anything unless i use it. So i sell it where did that influ/infamy come from. Its 200+ mill actually more but for arguement sake lets say its 200 mill. That 200 hundred mill had to come from killing npcs thats the only place "new" influ/infamy comes from. So with a lower player base why are prices GOING UP i cant farm more than i did before and less are playing so where is all the new influ/infamy coming from |
The specific numbers may be off on this, but you didn't just get an "apoc dmg recipe".
You had to drop, let's say 1500 badguys to get that apoc. At 3000 inf each, minimum, that's 4.5 million inf. Probably more like 6 million because lieuts and bosses give disproportionate inf.
You also got, making up a number, 300 generic recipes worth 100K each at the store, so 30 million inf. You've also gotten a bunch of uncommon recipes, which we will ignore. Either they generate trivial inf or they are sold at Wents and merely move inf around, instead of creating it.
The GAME gave you that money, so you've created 36 million inf that didn't exist before. (Exact numbers are unimportant. I'm going to use 36 million and if it turns to be something else, you can cut and paste YOUR OWN DAMN SELF. ) And an Apoc: Damage.
Now if we assume that, roughly, there's as much inf going into the system as coming out, the process of selling that Apoc: Damage (and everything else you sell at Wents) will get rid of 36 million inf. So the Apoc: Damage (and everything else) would sell for 360 million inf, because only 10% of that gets destroyed and the rest goes to you, and you buy something that someone ELSE farmed up and the money goes around 10 times before it goes away. "36 million" farmed is actually "360 million" spent.
Where's the money coming from? THE SAME F'N PLACE THE APOC CAME FROM. You get one purple with every 36 million cash, or to think of it another way you get 36 million cash with every purple.
Why does an Apoc cost more than 360 million ? Because a Soulbound Allegiance costs less.
If you do not understand this explanation, please quote the specific part you don't understand. Please do not repeat your same exact point, because that doesn't help communication. I understand your point and I think it's wrong. You need to explain which of my points you think is wrong:
1) You get inf the same way you get recipes
2) People get to spend ten times as much inf as farmers create
3) other.
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Unfortunately the plural of anecdote is not data. In fact, in this case, the _singular_ of anecdote is not data.
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Originally Posted by magnus1
im a 2yr vet leaving permantly because the game has lost so much appeal i cant stand it anymore. no teams, noone on, it just sucks. with that said im leaving mar 15 and gonna leave with 1.250 billon on one toon. not gonna spend it just gonna let it vanish.
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[QUOTE=magnus1;2587127]
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What server are you playing on? Generally it doesn't really matter how many people are on any server at any given point as long as you can find enough willing participants as you need.|
Originally Posted by Thunderforce
Post Deleted
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That would mean 8 normally unless you are going to do a raid or zone PvP. If you can't find 7 people you really should find out where most people are hiding. Usually that is global channels. If you're into PUGs I'd suggest a server transfer to something like Freedom, Virtue or Justice, and there I'd still use channels versus the LFT flags.
As far as the economy goes, watching everyone trying to explain economics to graystar has been kinda amusing. I can imagine Adeon's face turning all sorts of shades as he is typing.
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Very much this. It should be obvious now that gaystar is just trolling.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
As far as the economy goes, watching everyone trying to explain economics to graystar has been kinda amusing. I can imagine Adeon's face turning all sorts of shades as he is typing.
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Oh, don't encourage him. He's already told us that his account is canceled. He's just hanging around until it expires, posting doom and gloom in various threads.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
What server are you playing on? Generally it doesn't really matter how many people are on any server at any given point as long as you can find enough willing participants as you need.
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Intellectually I know that it's pointless, emotionally I just have a hard time seeing ignorance without trying to educate it.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
As far as the economy goes, watching everyone trying to explain economics to graystar has been kinda amusing. I can imagine Adeon's face turning all sorts of shades as he is typing.
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Yup. I used to occasionally farm but it was a hassle getting the fillers. Now I can run my brute or fire/kin through a mission set for 8 if I have just a few minutes of downtime. In fact, if I want to play but know I won't have enough time for more than a single mission I'll sometimes do this type of soloing because it can take so long to assemble a full team. I'm guessing the net effect of this is that there's now a legion of casual farmers like Organica and me. |
Originally Posted by Organica
In the past you had to get 7 fillers to run a mission set for 8. I never engaged in the practice.
Today I can do that any time I want. In fact, I have to go talk to someone to AVOID doing that when solo. ^_^ I'm sure there are a lot of people, like me, who are taking advantage of the mission settings that did not regularly solo missions set for 8 the old way. |
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Originally Posted by parabola_EU
This is a bit of a hunch but i suspect the demographics of the playerbase has an impact on the supply/demand equation too. Things do indeed seem a bit quiet at the minute and I suspect that proportionally more casual players than long term vets have quit or are taking a break. It's the long term vets that are more likely to be serious farmers (or just happily plodding along with 50's generating loads of inf) so if the playerbase is (for example) 50% down the amount of inf generation is unlikely to be 50% down too.
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Final point: the amount of inf in the game is ever increasing. The accumulated inf spirals ever upward. A natural result is that prices can spike up not because players have suddenly generated new wealth but because they're deciding to use some of their massive accumulated savings.
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The market is cross server and doesn't require me to be online (to advertise or see advertising). These two things alone make it worth the 10% fee.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
2) if vets are buying it why arnt we just advertising in a chat channel for our wares and stop trowing away 10% in fees.
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Without the market it would be virtually impossible for players to get full sets of of IOs without spending merits.
All of this has been very interesting and the private emails i have gotten also, the stuff on my server from this thread has been very informative and we all have different opinions.
But where is the INLFU/INFAMY coming from.....
I agree the rates of influ earning are way up.
So ill ask this when GR comes will i be even richer if thats possible.
Will prices drop when everone is back or will they go up?
I see a mangled quote upthread causing some confusion, judging from the PMs I am getting. I am not leaving. "magnus1" says he is leaving. If you ever see a quote that appears to be from me where "I'm" is written "im",or with any of that other text-messaging nonsense in, it's a misquote.
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That seems silly. If there is no one playing, and less than 10% of all players read the forums, then there must be... let me see... carry the one... No one here on the forums to read his gloomongering. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Oh, don't encourage him. He's already told us that his account is canceled. He's just hanging around until it expires, posting doom and gloom in various threads.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Intellectually I know that it's pointless, emotionally I just have a hard time seeing ignorance without trying to educate it.
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The game itself does whenever we are rewarded inf. The market only takes 5% of inf during transations, and much of the inf never leaves play. Only when we delete or replace enhancements is inf truly removed.
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
b) leads me to belive someone is printing influ/infamy
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The market takes 10%, but the rest of what you said is true.
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Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
The game itself does whenever we are rewarded inf. The market only takes 5% of inf during transations, and much of the inf never leaves play. Only when we delete or replace enhancements is inf truly removed.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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up to 10%.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
The market takes 10%, but the rest of what you said is true.
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Seriously, and I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but surely you can't be this dense.
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
But where is the INLFU/INFAMY coming from.....
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Blue
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No, the market always take 10% of the selling price.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
up to 10%.
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You put something up for sale and you say the minimum selling price is 10,000. The market takes 500 right there and then as a posting fee. Now when it sells, lets say for 20,000, the market pays you back your 500 and takes 2000 so you end up with 18,000.
There simply isn't enough inf sinks in the game to siphon off all the inf that drops and critter bashing is creating. Few vets pay for costume changes anymore, that's on top of costume tokens from events and costume discounts from day jobs. Buying standard enhancements from the stores is ho-hum in the era of IOs. Few if anyone convert inf to prestige at the current horrible exchange rate.
Maybe we need a luxury tax on 7 or 8 plus figure sales to pull the excess inf out of the economy.
Maybe NCSoft could sponsor a charity drive for some good cause (Red Cross for example), $1 for every million inf donated.
Without a significant inf sink we'll just end up tacking another 0 every few months to the end of our bids.
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If previous issues are any indication; the following is likely to occur.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
So ill ask this when GR comes will i be even richer if thats possible.
Will prices drop when everone is back or will they go up? |
Many people are going to be creating new characters. There's at lest 2 known about sets; a new MM primary that will be popular if for no other reason than it being a new MM primary, and dual pistols - which will likely be rather popular if past action in the suggestion boards is any indication. And if there's any additional set proliferation on top of that, more new characters.
What does this mean? As they level up, there will be increased demand on current IO recipes (Dual pistols alone will likely place more demand on the ranged damage and targeted aoe types.) Increased demand of recipes will also increase the demand on salvage. exponentially.
Unfortunately, generation of supply of both the salvage and recipes will remain, AT BEST, constant relative to demand. But I expect, to some degree that is not going to be the case for recipes, which people often like to purchace at certain levels - usually 30-40 - So until these new characters reach this range, there won't be sufficient new supply to compensate for the new demand. Purples? I recommend getting them early, because once these new alts start hitting 50...
you thought prices were bad now?Add to this that a good number of these new characters are going to have stockpiles of inf on alts that they can transfer to fund these new builds, market prices are going to go in a generally upwards direction. Eventually, as more and more of these alts either get abandoned, or make it to 50; market prices will stabilize and reach an equilibrium similar to what we have now.
However, because Praetoria is new content, there will be people playing their 50s through much of the content.... but this presents an unmeasurable variable. side switching. How many villains are switching to heroes? Will red side players switch over, take advantage of the lower prices of blue side then go back? how will this effect prices on either market? *shrug* that last bit is something that's harder to predict. We've had issues with new/proliferated sets before, so we can reasonably predict how THAT aspect of GR will impact the market... but side switching is an unknown.
Me? I've already got a plan. I've got a stockpile of Winter's Gift Recipes that cost me, at most, 3mil each to buy from the candy cane store. Which is now closed. That closure has already cut off the supply, and market prices have gone as high as 20mil in less than a month. Imagine with all the new alts being roled in "x" months with GR?
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
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*facepalm*|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
But where is the INLFU/INFAMY coming from.....
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Did you even read any of the responses? I'm just going to just assume that English isn't your native language and give you the benefit of the doubt. That's probably for the best.
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Technically, not always 10%.. Considering the minimum fee appears to be 5inf up front, and 5inf after sale... If you place it on the market for 1inf, and it's bought for 1 inf... market fees are.. over 100%... |
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
No, the market always take 10% of the selling price.
You put something up for sale and you say the minimum selling price is 10,000. The market takes 500 right there and then as a posting fee. Now when it sells, lets say for 20,000, the market pays you back your 500 and takes 2000 so you end up with 18,000. |
That's why I like to sell for 119 minimum. It's that magic number before they charge you 6 upfront.
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
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Actually, it would be more accurate to say that the market takes at least 10% of the selling price.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
No, the market always take 10% of the selling price.
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A while ago, I had a PVP IO. I listed it for 300 million. Prices dropped, and it didn't sell. I pulled it and relisted at 200 million. It finally sold for 250 million. Were my market fees 10% (25 million)? No, they were 16% (40 million) because of the original listing fee combined with the selling fee.
@Roderick
At the other extreme, listing and selling for 1 inf, costs you 5 (a 500% fee)
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Okay, let's try to explain this with a few numbers.
Paradigms:
That the rate of inf earning per player is constant.
The rate of player decline is such that the number of players is 75% of the previous month.
All "new inf" is cycled through the market once in the month in which it was created. Old inf is not cycled through the market at all.
Let:
Number of players = X.
Inf per player per month = Y.
Month 1: Number of players = X, influence earned = X*Y. Influence lost = X*Y*0.1. Inf remaining = X*Y*(1-0.1) = X*Y*0.9
Month 2: Number of players = X*0.75. influence earned = X*0.75*Y. Influence lost = X*Y*0.75*0.1 = X*Y*0.075. Influence remaining = X*Y*0.9+X*Y*0.75*(1-0.1) = X*Y*0.9+X*Y*0.625 = X*Y*1.575
Month 3: Number of players = X*0.5625. Influence earned = X*0.5625*Y. Influence lost = X*0.5625*0.1*Y = X*Y*0.05625. Influence remaining = X*Y*1.575+X*Y*0.5625*(1-0.1) = X*Y*1.575+X*Y*0.50625 = X*Y*2.08125.
Three months - player base has almost halved, influence AVAILABLE to the player base has more than doubled. Because the market exists and holds transactions, even players who have now left the game can have transactions that will allow their influence to move toward the active player base (in fact, it almost guarantees that it will), meaning that inactive players does NOT mean their influence is lost to the game. The slower the decline rate of players leaving the game, the faster the amount of influence available to the player base as a whole increases. I for one do not believe that 25% of the existing player base leaves every month, which means that the numbers given above are pessimistic in terms of the amount of available influence, month on month.
Edit: Can someone pull up Posi's "State of the Game" address from a couple of years ago and post up how much influence had been generated in that time? A lot of that inf is still floating around, available for use.
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