In a system where money can be generated infinitely, its value of this currency will decrease. Look what happened to the Weimar Republic.
LotG +rech used to be in the 40 mil range for a few months following introduction, they have steadily climbed to what they are today (worse trend on the Black Market)
Inf is surprisingly easy to earn in this game, both from "generating it" in terms of defeats, and getting it, by selling through the market.
edit: The fact that RMT spam continues in this game means that at the very least there is a portion of the playerbase using their services, so factor in the odd 2 bil influx here and there.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Whether inf is "new" or "old" is functionally irrelevant where player to player prices are concerned. What matters is the change in the amount of inf per capita. It matters very little who actually owns that inf as long as they are using it. If they aren't using it due to either lack of interest or because they quit then the inf is effectively removed form the economy.
Mathematically the change in inf per capita for a given time period is represented by: (Inf generated by combat - Inf removed by Inf sinks)/number of active players The first two terms are both functions of the number of players in the game so when the devs increased the amount of inf being generated by combat then the inf per capita for a given time period will increase irregardless of any change in player numbers. At this point all I can really say is go and study some economics. EDIT: Against my better judgment I will try one more time to explain. Let us assume for the sake of an argument that you can actively measure the amount of inf going through the market of two successive days. We will call these values A and B. Now on Day1 IOs sell and a total Inf of A passes through the market. Now on Day2 more sales happen and an amount of Inf equal to B passes through. How much Inf has to be farmed (F) on Day 2 to allow for this to happen? Assume that everyday 100% of the available Inf passes through the market. Now we know that on Day 1 A Inf passed through the market so the amount of inf going into day 2 is 0.9 * A. Therefore F = B - 0.9 * A |
I would say that the player base is less than the capita of the players remaining can generate.
Please provide numbers with an equation before assuming i dont understand economics. And furthermore this is a game and economice while important for a market as we are experiencing here in our little game is important i will postulate to you that there is less influ generated today than 6 monts ago yet prices are more than 8x. So the dev fix on earnings are not enough to compensate for the increase on prices.
I also would like to add that pvp ios as well as purples and some regular ios are so far ahead of the price from months ago that the current base(my server is way less then 10x less than just 6 months ago) acroos all server is down so the increase in prices is not sufficant to account for dwindling pop.
Please for reference go back to my original discussion to new people reading this before we get off topic
cliff notes" population decline versus the increase in xp earned by the new mecahncs is not enought to account for the spike in prices"
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I don't have to kill 2 bill worth of NPCs to generate "new" Influence, that's the thing.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
u say that it takes less than a day it does not you have to kill 2 bill worth of npcs to generate "NEW" influ thats my point the population is way down. Yes they farm 2 bill easily a day but look at whats selling a day. Its SOOOOoo muchmore than that where is the "NEW" money coming from.
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I just use the Market! Case in point, my Mind/Cold. She's level 44 now and sitting on 450 Merits from just doing Phalanx TFs for accolading and my Friday night TF groups (we recently did Shard TFs, massive influx of Merits there).
On the side, I did AE and cashed in at level 35. I made close to 100,000,000 influence just off those rolls from AE.
Other players gave me that money! *YOU* might have given me that money. On the other side, I run my bubbler through my demon farm and just craft the drops and sell them. On a bad run I sell a few crafted uncommons for 5 to 20 million and sell the salvage for 2-10 million. On a *good* run I get a purple and sell it for 70,000,000 plus.
My Warshade on Triumph, The Casual Player, is sitting on 10,000,000 at level 20 and that's not that much, but I've been lazy in playing her. All I did was sell drops to the Market.
If *all* you do is just defeat mobs and vendor stuff you'll make enough to outfit yourself in single origins and still clear the several million cap. Seriously. It's impossible to not make money somehow!
My SGmates on Pinnacle were actually wondering how they'd afford an LOTG for their builds: "It's so expensive!"
I told them EXACTLY how to do it:
i)Roll a new alt
ii)Sell insps on market (20,000 - 50,000 inf)
iii)Sell any salvage on market
iv)Place low bids on recipes and vendor them
v)Do a few TFs, cash in Merits and craft and sell.
Eventually you'll get your millions, and quickly at that.
The game also gives you "new inf" with mob defeats; millions of "new inf", especially at level 50! I think Catwhoorg did a report a while back that states an hour's play on even a low-damage character at level 50 got you 1,000,000 per hour...do the math.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
I also would like to add that pvp ios as well as purples and some regular ios are so far ahead of the price from months ago that the current base(my server is way less then 10x less than just 6 months ago) acroos all server is down so the increase in prices is not sufficant to account for dwindling pop. Please for reference go back to my original discussion to new people reading this before we get off topic cliff notes" population decline versus the increase in xp earned by the new mecahncs is not enought to account for the spike in prices" |
The population may be declining but even on a low-pop server like Pinnacle I can get an 8 person TF going which gives me Merits and inf...an infinitely increasing amount of inf coming into the game with few inf sinks outside of crafting and market sales and costume changes and prestige buyins...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
I don't have to kill 2 bill worth of NPCs to generate "new" Influence, that's the thing.
I just use the Market! Case in point, my Mind/Cold. She's level 44 now and sitting on 450 Merits from just doing Phalanx TFs for accolading and my Friday night TF groups (we recently did Shard TFs, massive influx of Merits there). On the side, I did AE and cashed in at level 35. I made close to 100,000,000 influence just off those rolls from AE. Other players gave me that money! *YOU* might have given me that money. On the other side, I run my bubbler through my demon farm and just craft the drops and sell them. On a bad run I sell a few crafted uncommons for 5 to 20 million and sell the salvage for 2-10 million. On a *good* run I get a purple and sell it for 70,000,000 plus. My Warshade on Triumph, The Casual Player, is sitting on 10,000,000 at level 20 and that's not that much, but I've been lazy in playing her. All I did was sell drops to the Market. If *all* you do is just defeat mobs and vendor stuff you'll make enough to outfit yourself in single origins and still clear the several million cap. Seriously. It's impossible to not make money somehow! My SGmates on Pinnacle were actually wondering how they'd afford an LOTG for their builds: "It's so expensive!" I told them EXACTLY how to do it: i)Roll a new alt ii)Sell insps on market (20,000 - 50,000 inf) iii)Sell any salvage on market iv)Place low bids on recipes and vendor them v)Do a few TFs, cash in Merits and craft and sell. Eventually you'll get your millions, and quickly at that. The game also gives you "new inf" with mob defeats; millions of "new inf", especially at level 50! I think Catwhoorg did a report a while back that states an hour's play on even a low-damage character at level 50 got you 1,000,000 per hour...do the math. |
Your not getting it
For someone to buy that stuff
NEW influ had to be earned and the only way to "earn" "new" influ is to kil npcs.
what u sell on the market is irrelevant thats is the point. To sell on market someone had to "earn" "NEW" influ to but itl. the Market is a sink for influ it makes it go away to sell something NEW influ had to bed printed or "earned"
so to say the market helped you is to say your not understanding what im getting at which is totally ok try to look at it in a analytical perspective. Its not what you got from the market its what INFLU ONLY came from npcs kills.
and how did that new influ afford what you sold.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
Your not getting it
For someone to buy that stuff NEW influ had to be earned and the only way to "earn" "new" influ is to kil npcs. what u sell on the market is irrelevant thats is the point. To sell on market someone had to "earn" "NEW" influ to but itl. the Market is a sink for influ it makes it go away to sell something NEW influ had to bed printed or "earned" so to say the market helped you is to say your not understanding what im getting at which is totally ok try to look at it in a analytical perspective. Its not what you got from the market its what INFLU ONLY came from npcs kills. and how did that new influ afford what you sold. |
ill read befoer i post next time my spelling was horrible sorry i had too much wine as im making dinner atm
sorry
Quote:
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
Your not getting it
For someone to buy that stuff NEW influ had to be earned and the only way to "earn" "new" influ is to kil npcs. what u sell on the market is irrelevant thats is the point. To sell on market someone had to "earn" "NEW" influ to but itl. the Market is a sink for influ it makes it go away to sell something NEW influ had to bed printed or "earned" so to say the market helped you is to say your not understanding what im getting at which is totally ok try to look at it in a analytical perspective. Its not what you got from the market its what INFLU ONLY came from npcs kills. and how did that new influ afford what you sold. |
sorry for the spelling its terrible ill try to reread next time im making dinner so i rushed that post.
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Even a poor at soloing 50 can generate 1 million inf/hour|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
and how long would it "ACTUALLY" take you to farm 100 mill not drops but real influ generation?
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High end folks can get that 100 million inf in 3-4 hours. (counting any drops at vendor rates only)
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=195080
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You can generate 'new' inf in these fashions:
-Inf from defeats.
-Inf from mission completion.
-Inf from sales to vendors.
-Defeating players in PvP activities (paltry amounts, but you still get inf)
-Outside donations such as costume contests.
If your character does ONLY this from 1-50 you should come up with close to two to five million influence. Say Joe Blaster doesn't give a petunia about the Market and just vendors EVERYTHING. Vendor 5 Accuracy/Damage IOs (50) will give you 500,000 influence. Your mission will give you maybe 300,000 - 500,000 as well. You get 5 commons (5 x 250) one rare (5,000) and an uncommon (1,000).
There's a million or so right off. Once you have level 50 SOs slotted (that will cost you what, 4-5,000,000) you're in the clear correct? So...if you play the game you will continue to generate new influence. Forever.
It's like the old days before IOs. My bubbler would just run missions and get inf. Then she'd run Hami raids and people would give me 20 million for a Nucleolus, say. I'd pass that inf to alts for SOs and farm Dreck to get more inf.
Joe Blaster doesn't need purples or even IO sets to defeat the Guides, Tac Ops Commanders and so on. See? So you just vendor your stuff...if you play just an hour a night and make a million, after a month you'll have 30 million?
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Quote:
YES you get influ from sales but it is not generated. NEW generated influ comes from ONLY ONE way killing npcs|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
You can generate 'new' inf in these fashions:
-Inf from defeats. -Inf from mission completion. -Inf from sales to vendors. -Defeating players in PvP activities (paltry amounts, but you still get inf) -Outside donations such as costume contests. If your character does ONLY this from 1-50 you should come up with close to two to five million influence. Say Joe Blaster doesn't give a petunia about the Market and just vendors EVERYTHING. Vendor 5 Accuracy/Damage IOs (50) will give you 500,000 influence. Your mission will give you maybe 300,000 - 500,000 as well. You get 5 commons (5 x 250) one rare (5,000) and an uncommon (1,000). There's a million or so right off. Once you have level 50 SOs slotted (that will cost you what, 4-5,000,000) you're in the clear correct? So...if you play the game you will continue to generate new influence. Forever. It's like the old days before IOs. My bubbler would just run missions and get inf. Then she'd run Hami raids and people would give me 20 million for a Nucleolus, say. I'd pass that inf to alts for SOs and farm Dreck to get more inf. Joe Blaster doesn't need purples or even IO sets to defeat the Guides, Tac Ops Commanders and so on. See? So you just vendor your stuff...if you play just an hour a night and make a million, after a month you'll have 30 million? |
Costumes contests really? thats clearly coming from another player
IM talking about NEW MONEY
not old money
think about HOW new money comes about
Simple answer
AE
You get Inf from killing NPC's You also get tickets that if spent wisely on marketable items will get you large amounts of inf. All of that inf that was generated from the AE PLing and farming didn't just vanish.
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Quote:
Ok, I will try one more time to explain this in very simple terms. When you buy soemthing on the market only 10% of the inf used is destroyed. That effectively means that every inf you earn defeating enemies can be used 10 times before it is removed from the economy. In other words, to fund a 2 billion purchase only 200million of that needs to be "new" influence to keep the economy stable. If I make a 2 billion purchase only 200million inf is destroyed and needs to be made up by combat. It doesn't actually matter how the 200million enters the economy, whether I'm the one earning it or if someone else does it. As long as 200million enters the economy somewhere it will be stable. If less enters the economy then we get deflation and prices drop, if more enters then we get inflation and prices go up.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
Your not getting it
For someone to buy that stuff NEW influ had to be earned and the only way to "earn" "new" influ is to kil npcs. what u sell on the market is irrelevant thats is the point. To sell on market someone had to "earn" "NEW" influ to but itl. the Market is a sink for influ it makes it go away to sell something NEW influ had to bed printed or "earned" so to say the market helped you is to say your not understanding what im getting at which is totally ok try to look at it in a analytical perspective. Its not what you got from the market its what INFLU ONLY came from npcs kills. and how did that new influ afford what you sold. |
In other words 10 times more influence travels through the market than is actually generated as "NEW" inf.
Quote:
You are misreading his first 4|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
YES you get influ from sales but it is not generated. NEW generated influ comes from ONLY ONE way killing npcs
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NPC defeats
Mission/glowie type bonuses (small change but it adds up)
Sales to NPC vendors (eg level 50 acc IO recipe sells for 113 460). Though admittedly such recipe drops come from mobs or mission completes (Chronologist day job and Pool B).
PVP victories (in zone , not sure about arena)
Those 4 are entirely new inf into the system.
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The problem is simple, farming for purple recipes drops also causes influence to drop. So is selling of unwanted "poor" set or common IO recipes to the market. To much money chasing to few goods equals inflation. Inflation causes players to farm for influence. Rinse and repeat.
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I think I need to bring everyone back to what i was saying in the origin of this post.
Selling to a market DOES NOT MAKE INFLU it makes you influ it does not create new influ for the entire economy as a whole.
Also there were hundreds of farmers lets say 1 year ago. I think we can all agree there are less now. I would say that the 10x player base generated more "NEW" influ then the current diminished base. AND YES the pop will go way up when GR hits.
SO if the player base is less and one year ago ios were out where is this extreme amount of new influ required to support this increase in prce coming from. I have been farming the whole time, Hell on my server we even had a farm channel. But there is no way the current player base is generating NEW influ even close to the amount just one year ago.
You could sell those same drops at a vendor for the same amount nothings changed.
But prices are amazing, I also think people are misunderstading me. I LOVE IT i have made a mint.
IM only asking where is this coming from.
We had hide a year ago and still you could search and find 800 on heros or 500 on vils at lets say 12 noon est now i search and i see 100 on heros and less than 50 on villans. I am not saying its the same on every server but its less on freedom too now.
So this extreme increase in prioces this "new" influ has to come from somewhere. What are your thoughts.
If you just disagree with me thats fine. But im not loking to discuss purple drop rates, or influ earned at the market. those things are nice and for a different disscussion.
KILL an NPC u get influ. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CREATE INFLUENCE. "capitol period"
It's easy. It's easier to make influence more than ever (i.e., by killing stuff). Even if there are less players, the average player has more. With more influence, they can pay higher premiums for IOs.
Numbers of players make no difference to this because the ratio of suppliers and buyers remain relatively the same except the buyers can afford to pay more. You can even argue that there's less supply, driving prices, especially purple prices, higher.
This isn't rocket science.
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Ok, I will explain this one more time (and this time I really mean it).|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
Selling to a market DOES NOT MAKE INFLU it makes you influ it does not create new influ for the entire economy as a whole.
Also there were hundreds of farmers lets say 1 year ago. I think we can all agree there are less now. I would say that the 10x player base generated more "NEW" influ then the current diminished base. AND YES the pop will go way up when GR hits. SO if the player base is less and one year ago ios were out where is this extreme amount of new influ required to support this increase in prce coming from. I have been farming the whole time, Hell on my server we even had a farm channel. But there is no way the current player base is generating NEW influ even close to the amount just one year ago. |
There are two important values to consider when discussing Influence. The first is the absolute quantity of Influence active in the Economy (or total influence). The second is the absolute quantity of Influence active in the Economy divided by the number of active players (influence per capita). These values influence the Demand for IOs.
On the other side of the scales we have IOs. As with Inf we have both a total IO supply and the total IO supply divided by the number of active players (IOs per capita).
Let us assume an EXTREMELY simplified in game economy. It will suffice for an example, and I think it is reasonably obvious how to extrapolate from this to the real in-game economy. In this game a player logs on and automatically generates X Inf/hour and Y IOs/hour, for the sake of this argument all IOs are equivalent.
Let us assume that the developers wipe the server and everyone is starting from scratch. The players log in and play for a combined total of Z hours (it is academic how those hours are spread out). After this then there will be a total of Z * X inf and Z * Y IOs available for trade. Since all IOs are equal the market price of an IO is M = X/Y.
Now what happens if the number of players drops by half? This means that the total amount of playing time will also decrease by half. We shall call this Z' = Z/2. Therefore the total quantity of Inf will be Z' * X = Z/2 * X and there will be Z' * Y = Z/2 * Y IOs. Since the reduction in INf and the Reduction in IOs is the same proportional rate the market value of an IO is STILL X/Y. So the number of players has no effect on the in-game market value of items.
Now, suppose that the number of player-hours remains at Z but instead the developers double the rate at which players gain influence (a crude approximation of what happened with I16). So we have the new rate X' = 2 * X. given this the amount of inf generated is Z * X' = Z * 2 * X, however the rate of IO generation is still Y so there are only Z * Y IOs available for trade. The market price of IOs is therefore now 2 * X/Y.
As a final example, let us assume that play-time decreases to Z' = Z/2 and the Inf rate increases to X' = 2 * X. The Inf available is Z' * X' = Z/2 * 2 * X = Z * X while the IO supply is Z' * Y = Z/2 * Y. The market price is therefore still 2 * X/Y
The conclusion to take from this is that market values are based not on the total quantity of players, nor on the total size of the market. But on the rate at which influence (demand) and items (supply) are being generated which is completely independent of the size of the player base.
Ok, that is about as simple as I can make it. If you still don't understand then read the wikipedia article on Supply and Demand. If you STILL don't understand after that all I can suggest is take some classes in economics. I am done attempting to explain this to you.
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The same place the *NEW* purple recipes are coming from: punching NPC's in the face. |
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
where is the "NEW" money coming from.
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If there are fewer players, then there is less money, so prices should go down. But if there are fewer players, then there are fewer recipes, so prices should go up. Result: nothing.
A lower population does not mean lower prices.
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Quote:
Say I get about 3000 inf at 50 for defeating a minion|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
You could sell those same drops at a vendor for the same amount nothings changed.
KILL an NPC u get influ. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CREATE INFLUENCE. "capitol period" |
The Common IO recipe dropped by the same minion, sells to the STORE for 100K and change.
Again, you are mistaken. Yes defeating NPCs creates influence, but for sure vendoring the common recipes they drop adds significantly to the influence created.
This is not selling via the market, this is selling to a store. This creates inf into the system.
You again skip out on the smaller amounts from click glowies and mission completes to create inf. (as well as PVP inf amounts)
Defeating NPC foes is the largest contributor by far (directly and via vendoring drops), but not the ONLY way. Capital period.
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i really think graystar needs to not drink when he is posting as he is over complicating his original question and reading way to much into it. 
seriously though, there are a couple ways to make "new" influence.
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I don't know about you, but I don't really care what you call it.........as long as it is spendable! |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i really think graystar needs to not drink when he is posting as he is over complicating his original question and reading way to much into it.
seriously though, there are a couple ways to make "new" influence. |
Quote:
This has been repeated back at you continually. I'm not sure why you're not reading people's more than thoughtful responses to you. As you just said, you get "new" influence from defeating foes... which includes selling their drops to vendors. And clicking on glowies and completing missions.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
KILL an NPC u get influ. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CREATE INFLUENCE. "capitol period"
|
There are more level 50s in the game now, and they can make more influence than they did before exemplered... all of that adds up to making more "new" influence than money sinks like market fees take out. It's simple, stop trying to overcomplicate it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
So with less people where is all this "NEW" influ/infamy coming from
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Look up what a zero-sum economy is, then re-read my first reply to you.
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Quote:
This. Also, this again. Also, also, what Grey Pilgrim just posted.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
This has been repeated back at you continually. I'm not sure why you're not reading people's more than thoughtful responses to you. As you just said, you get "new" influence from defeating foes... which includes selling their drops to vendors. And clicking on glowies and completing missions.
There are more level 50s in the game now, and they can make more influence than they did before exemplered... all of that adds up to making more "new" influence than money sinks like market fees take out. It's simple, stop trying to overcomplicate it. |
And the many, many others who posted before saying the same thing.
Number of players doesn't directly alter pricing since supply and demand both follow population.
However, the new difficulty settings do make it easier to generate more influence. For example, my DM/Elec Brute sometimes now warms up by running around some RWZ maps punching Rikti in the face and defeating a number of enemies that used to require five to seven teammates to spawn them, and does it solo. Between that and improved inf earning at higher levels it's no surprise that prices might rise. The only way to increase the inf supply in game is to earn mission rewards, sell junk and hit things in the face. People are doing that. i am doing that. Lately i've been doing that more as i focus more on the builds of my various 50's as i await Going Roge to decide what i'm going to do with my lowbies. Seriously, i've been playing my lower level alts less and focusing more on my 40+ alts. Result? More inf. Also, people are far more willing to invite lower level alts to high level missions now that SSK guarantees they are always capable of contributing something.
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Quote:
OK, lets ignore the other ways to actually create influence for a moment.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
KILL an NPC u get influ. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CREATE INFLUENCE. "capitol period"
|
First, there are likely more players with level 50 characters now. It's not just that more time has passed and more people got something to 50. It's also that it's actually easier to get to 50 now because the XP/foe was increased in several key areas and Patrol XP was added. And lets not forget how immensely the devs underestimated what people would do with the AE (and are doing again currently).
Level 50s make more inf per defeat than anyone else.
There are more reasons to play at 50 now. Ouroboros means you can play a lot of content even if you initially raced past it on your way to 50. There are level 50 TFs, now, at least of couple of which remain quite popular. Fighting against L47+ mobs is the only way to get purples. Level 50 characters are as powerful as they can get innately, so many people like playing there.
These factors combine to create another reason to play at 50 - if you want IOs, the supply is concentrated near 50 or whatever the level max is for a given set. The people playing at 50 for the reasons above are generating merit rolls, ticket rolls and random drops at or near level 50. Since the supply is there, it's easiest to get IOs there, so many people wait till near 50 to get IOs.
Then there's IOs themselves. Our characters can be harder to kill, act faster, move faster, fight longer, and hit harder than ever before. As a character makes money and gets drops, they bootstrap themselves to higher and higher levels of performance. The more they get the faster or safer they can defeat more foes.
And then the devs let us fill our missions with foes without padders. Now, those of us with characters that can kill more stuff faster can get as much of it as they want all the time.
And finally, the devs just recently approximately doubled how much inf a level 50 gets per foe defeated.
Add all that up, and the rate at which money is entering the economy has accelerated. Note that defeating more mobs/time also increases common recipes dropped/time, and selling those to NPCs (not the market) is also a considerable source of created inf. However, since the reward doubling for level 50s, that is a smaller part of the pie now (roughly 1/6 of raw inf creation power, where it was roughly 1/3 pre-I16).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Mathematically the change in inf per capita for a given time period is represented by:
(Inf generated by combat - Inf removed by Inf sinks)/number of active players
The first two terms are both functions of the number of players in the game so when the devs increased the amount of inf being generated by combat then the inf per capita for a given time period will increase irregardless of any change in player numbers.
At this point all I can really say is go and study some economics.
Now we know that on Day 1 A Inf passed through the market so the amount of inf going into day 2 is already 0.9 * A. Therefore F = B - 0.9 * A
In actual fact it's more complicated than this but you get the basic idea. The amount of inf being generated doesn't have to cover all the transactions, it just needs to cover the increase plus the amount destroyed by the market in the previous day.