PVPEC League Rule Ammendments - Sharks and Lineups

First and foremost, a format for reporting line-ups needs to be decided. At this point, an argument would result if a team reporting came up with "2 trollers, 2 corrs, 3 blasters, 1 veat". It tells you nothing about the lineup.

Part I:

Add:
-Lineup Reports should follow the following format.

(Number of players playing this type of toon) Primary/Secondary/Epic Archetype, (Number of players playing this type of toon) Primary/Secondary/Epic Archetype, (Number of players playing this type of toon) Primary/Secondary/Epic Archetype, (Number of players playing this type of toon) Primary/Secondary/Epic Archetype... etc.

Part 2:
-Sharks should be allowed in the ladder.

Part 3:
-Teams should be allowed 2 wild-cards on the initial reporting of their team lineup.
-Upon receipt of the first part of the lineup. These lineups are to be made public in the Arena Chat channel.
-The two wild-cards must then be reported to the PVPEC representative within a 2 minute period beginning at the announcement of the initial lineup in Arena Chat channel.

I've separated the third and second amendment under the notion that what killed the last ladder attempt was the static nature of lineups under that system. While we did not create prescribed lineups in that system, we were using settings that resulted in that. Creating a set of rules where the most optimal, general purpose lineup is the one that will most likely be reported will have essentially the same results. Teams will be bound to run the "safest bet" lineup instead of having to rely on actual knowledge of game mechanics when dealing with unexpected situations or even expected situations.

I'm confused on the #1 do you want a team to report every at they have like that or just a line up they bring to a match? Your list alone would take hours..:P

It would only take hours if you have downs syndrome... If you have say 3 people logged in, it takes 10 secs to check their powers.. you ask 3 others on vent and report... Not hard. At all.

And this is due at a specified time ; you should know what your running prior to 30 mins before the match assuming you are not just gonna wing it...

Even for lolujlol me and Mel kept a full roster and reporting this would have been a exercise in copy-paste-ing skillz (right clicks are haaaaaaaaaaaaard).

so just the line up they bring to the match..thx appreciate the lack of attitude.

Lineups are to be disclosed by the rep, as is stated.

"Procedure: A PvPEC Rep will ask both captains for their lineups at least 5 minutes prior to the start of each round. The PvPEC Rep will announce that the round is playable once they have received both team line-ups. The PvPEC Rep will NOT disclose the line-ups to anyone until both line-ups have been received."

I did have a format for lineup presentation, but it seems that it was removed from the final copy of the rules. That said, yes, we will certainly make sure that lineups are reported clearly and completely, with each AT and all powersets.

The issue with allowing wild-cards remains: Both teams have the opportunity to swap two of their players before the beginning of a round. Which team swaps first? The team that swaps last has the clear advantage, as they can use their wild-cards to counter the other team's.

As for sharks: Think back to the hero ladder. In i11, a rule was implemented limiting the number of Cagers allowed on one team. Cages were not bugged, but it was the general consensus of team leaders that allowing unlimited cagers was degenerative to the overall dynamics of arena pvp. I think sharks are the same.


Defender TK eluded me, as the "banned powers" section was made last-minute. What are your thoughts on defender TK?

No on Wildcards(because counterpicking is weak), Yes on Def TK ban, and I still don't understand the debate of shark. The power is stupidly unbalanced. I only see two viable options, 2 stalker limit or no sharks. If the argument is "because we aren't fiteklubrs" then there isn't an argument at all. Anyone who doesn't think a non-interrupt/LoS ranged attack that does the damage of an attack chain isn't broken is a fool. Banning a power that everyone knows needs to be nerfed doesn't make us primitive fight club kids, it makes us the civilized bunch we make ourselves out to be.

We'll spend 2 years debating the rules and this ladder will never happen. The partial draft league and it's aim at stacking teams also leaves me uninspired. At this point I may just zone it up or go back to PvE or quit yet again. This is becoming more like work. F- it let's just fight and have fun. But anyway...

I'd also rather a 2 stalker limit instead of banning sharks. I never understood why people where more hung up on stacking teams and rules-lawyering than just fighting and having fun.

To correct, the dual squad league aim isn't to stack teams. The purpose is to provide an outlet for the "hardcore" types to fight each other while enabling those wishing to just play for fun a medium to do so and still make a difference for a team.

I do not understand what your point on the who switches first thing is, silit. The opposite team will know your first 6 picks and have no clue what you are bringing for the last two spots until the pvpec announces the full final lineup... By then you aren't allowed to switch and neither are they.. What i'm asking for is a chance at applying the knowledge involved in the countering of a lineup in a fair fashion.

Think of it as poker.. You see a few cards, then you decide what you want to do, but at the end, you get to see your opponents cards before your money's taken away...

What I'm interested in preventing is a scenario where people will always bring the same lineup based on the perceived safest option...

Isn't that what you proposed when you said everyone should bring forts?

No.. I proposed forts as a counter to teams with stalkers.. What if I show you a 6 man lineup with no stalkers.. Will you bring a fort? Or decide to roll with 2 extra blasters for your 7th and 8th spot... Answering that question requires a bit more knowledge of the game than what the average player has..

Also in i12 I remember dual cage teams being run heroside.. Either that rule never passed or was never enforced...

Myk got laughed at when he tried to do that in the villain ladder... After that whole ban stormies chat the vill ladder guys mostly learned not to underestimate the top teams in the ladder by banning things that had once been thought 'unbettable'... Case in point: initial attempt at banning storms from the red ladder, DR trying to ban autolevel'd 50s and myk's attempt at limiting forts (followed by prodigy's legendary guide for villain pvp "doms have domination" "mind link stacks.. But only on doms".), etc.

While I was being somewhat facetious with my list of "we should ban these" powers, I certainly understand why cutting Spirit Shark off the list of usable powers makes sense (yes, craploads of ranged damage with the crit, low DR cap on resists, blah blah), I was more amused at Lingering Radiation and Poisonous Ray. Toss in a vote for banning Defender TK.

Why is defender TK being singled out apart from other TKs? It just repels.

My only input is regarding sharks.

Keep in mind, you're doing this on Freedom, not test. Also keep in mind, like 95+% of stalkers have sharks.

So what do you expect people to do? Specifically respec their character JUST to play in this league? Not gonna happen. As broken as sharks are, they're a big part of some people's builds. No casual or semi-casual player is going to waste 2 respecs just to attempt playing in this league, the success of which is unknown to anyone.

Basically, if you really are interested in getting new people into this thing, don't ban one of the most popular powers in the entire game. A 2 stalker, or maybe even 1 stalker limit would work much better, I think.

I don't think it's possible to have everyone 100% pleased when it comes to line-up submissions. In competitive matches, it certainly seems pointless to fight a round in which you pretty much know what the outcome is going to be (based on line-up/map combos). On the other hand, the back-and-forth line-up swapping at the arena terminals can get boring in a hurry. In a draft league, line-up options are usually pretty limited anyway, so just having a small window of time for line-up decision PvP is all that's needed.

Like I originally said... 8 sharks, even 4 or 5 sharks is pretty stupid damage for as simple as it is to get off. And the benefit of it will be you might end up with more stalkers learning to land AS'es. That part, especially for a league aimed at teaching is a good thing.

My issue more so with the ban is.... what if the team is already countering your say... 2 stalkers with a VEAT? Poison dart spam is up there with acid arrow for screwing over stalker damage. Even between placate and phase there is a decent chance you'll be screwed for much of the match.

Any time I've been stuck opposite a VEAT while stalking, I'll usually just switch to sharks rather than try for the AS, because in the limited time you can be in hide, standing still trying to land an interruptable attack makes you a waste to the team when you end up putting out no damage or a shark from out of hide which suddenly looks pretty weak.

If ppl really want to bann sharks i suggest to bann psi ems...just because they deal insane amount of DPS and don't need hide for it /sarcasm off