If I had a dime for every time ...

Ludicrous analogies aside, let's compare that to something in the game. I know a few people who had well-IO'd and accoladed Forts before I13, and they're now wishing they'd invested that time and inf in something else. It's like deciding who to put Forge on - you can put Forge on that Tanker and boost his relatively low damage modifier to more respectable levels, or you can put Forge on that Blaster and boost his insanely high damage modifier to even higher levels. Given the choice between the two, I know very few people who would give Forge to the Tanker, because most people want the best results in a given situation. Basically what I'm saying is, if you want to spend a lot of inf and time on a sub-standard build, I won't stop you. I've tossed around builds for oddball set combinations, and it's made me do a lot of number-crunching to see what works best for those particular builds. However, you'd be foolish to suggest that you would not get a far better return on your investment by working on a build that is more suited to the task at hand (sure a Rad/Elec Defender can farm, but why do that when you can use a Fire/Kin, which would be cheaper and much more efficient?).

AR has three single-target attacks. The AoEs are largely worthless because they have hella long animation times and AoEs in general are bad in PvP these days. None of AR's three attacks (including the snipe here, which is debatable) are particularly good. If someone wants to play an AR/Ice in zone, I won't say much, and if they asked for a build I'd try, but I'd tell them "don't expect much from it, neither of your powersets are particularly suited for PvP." It may not be what they want to hear, but it's me being honest and me saving them from a lot of frustration down the road. Flying Blasters are only slightly more annoying than regular Blasters because you're not always looking upwards in zone, but on the flip side they're trivially easy to bring down and once they're out of the air they're often a quick and easy kill. I did run into a flying AR Blaster in RV the other day, actually, and I kind of chuckled to myself as I webnaded him and then killed while he was plinking away at me.

Generally what I do in a situation like that (if I'm not using voice chat) is spam the name of the most dangerous target that's currently attacking me (I play support a lot, so I'm often a target in zones). Given that an organized PvP team will have roles (damage, buff/heal, disruption whether via taunt or other powers, debuff, etc), it's not a real issue to have the damage deals and disruptors switch to priority targets.

That's a tremendous oversimplification of the current state of PvP. Yes, the role of support and disruption has been greatly diminished. No, it's not "damage only." The focus has been generally changed to damage, yes, but the role of disruption and debuffs is still important (less important in zone given heal decay and travel suppression). There are some characters you want to be damage dealers, and there are some you want to be disruption builds. There are, believe it or not, some that can do both.

It's not an "I don't know." It's "that won't work well, at all, so save yourself the headaches and make something that will." Again, just because someone doesn't get the answer they want to hear doesn't mean they aren't getting an answer. Yes, I PvPd a bit on a flying AR/Dev before I13. No, I wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole in this current version of PvP. Same with my flying Kat/Regen. The problem with attempting to make everything exactly the same is that the small differences stand out even more than before, so there's less stuff that works well. Prior to I13, a smart player could make a PvE build work in many situations, but that's unfortunately not the case anymore.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Having different definitions for "success" and "good" does not mean the same thing as "using different word definitions than most". I would simply consider myself another guy with an informed opinion.

I'm just being real. The Spike damage reference was a response, it's not the point I'm after atm. It stems from what I beleive to be a general lack of trust in what many set/set combos can offer to a team even if their designed purpose (Archetype) is substandard to other set/set combos when it comes to sealing the deal aka dps and/or Team = Spike.

If I may start with the bold.

I've PvP'ed with just about all of you. I've checked the forums before logging in for just about as long as I've been registered. I can learn from and respect anyone here, and I have been doing so for some time. That's just me. I've learned from much of what I read here, and I can in fact appreciate the work of those you mention (including yourself) have put into reaching out and posting to those wanting to improve their skills in PvP. Please don't get that twisted.

I missed that thread but I'm aware that a solid recognition of CC/Disruption toons' effectiveness on teams exists, and I'll be here to defend anyone who says otherwise as you would.

this.

I know as support in every kickball I hate all Ta's, gravs, colds, ice etc. Especially colds. They should be perma-banned.

That reminds me. I stopped pvp'n when i13 came out and just got back in to it a few weeks ago. I could have sworn I heard slows were nerfed. Someone please tell me why every time a cold is on the other team I have no ******* powers up and can't move for ****? The nerf apparently phailed. Just saying.

Movement slows got hit hard, recharge slows are pretty much the same. Biggest thing is some powerset combinations can stack insane amounts of movement slow (Ice/Cold is one of those builds), enough to the point where you can get to pre-I13 levels.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Just for the record, the few of us who kept playing our forts and adjusted for the current system do just fine. Fotm psi/em blasters and mind/fire doms really aren't a problem. It's to the point where I can't get them to duel me in the arena. Colds are difficult, and therms are only beatable when the RNG isn't a ******.

Trying to stay on topic... If someone comes in trying to figure out if something works or asking about certain powersets; it's understandable the generic answer is "re-roll as <insert fotm>". If someone isn't knowledged in the system then pointing them towards the easy mode toon is most likely their best chance of success.

As a side note, from browsing the forums here, observing in kickballs and arena matches, and doing research I was able to take what is considered a sub-par toon and do very well. I don't find it surprising that the pvp forum frequenters can do the same; with an understanding of the system its possible to come up with oddball builds that have certain advantages they can capitalize on. Most people are simply not good players and can not do the same. Its noticeable in PvE, but even more so in PvP. The PvP forum frequenters that I've come across in game have mostly been skilled and in general not terribly rude (a few exceptions tho ). Those who are seeking guidance, and not spoon-feeding, can find it.

I'm not going to debate that you can't do decently on a Fort provided it's built right, but the abundance of SS/ characters and people who still build with +acc in mind can give defense-based builds (everything, not just Forts) a hard time. If I'd spent the time and inf on it before I13, and it were a character I were somewhat attached to, I'd probably respec it and continue to play it, but in the case of many of my characters they were fast 50s that I can replace without much fuss.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

My apologies if that seemed like a jab at you, it wasn't intended that way. It was your bane build, combined with some research that I did on elusivity and defenses that lead me to my current build.

I don't disagree Mac. I think the return you suggest is based on an indiviual return though. If I'm building a solo toon to fend for himself, (likey Redside) I pretty much keep all the things you suggested in mind when creating a build. I PvP Spec the toons I've PvE'd with for years the same way however, regardless of whether or not the common trend suggests it to be a good or bad idea. Very much like you I imagine.

I don't PL though... Just unlucky or what ever I suppose. (Actually laughed at for trying to level certain builds that stand solid to this day) So most of my toons have endured weeks, months, or years of PvE'ing before IO'ing and readying them for PvP. Because of this I sometimes forget I'm a PvP vet, and I seek to acheive the same role in PvP as I do in PvE. This leads me to assume that perhaps to recruit and interest more PvPers... we must find way to allow them to fufill their designed PvE purpose. I think we can agree that the roles needed for PvE success are also useful in PvP. Perhaps coach Zone as an intro to PvP allowing one to make the most out of a build they may have come to love... then let them know what they'll need to reroll in order to compete in arena.


How many ST attacks do you need to when you outrange your opponent by 100 ft... and when they recharge repatedly, or perhaps when they're only used to scourge and/or spike for the killshot?

If I coulld humbly ask for one favor Mac. Please revisit the possible effects of AoEs when the number of PvPers is actually at or near the cap aka current Freedom. Teamwise when paired with good CC and/or debuffers, I've witnessed several lol moments in zone when AoEs are coordinated. As you may or may not know... I zone mostly these days, so that is specifically what Im referring to.

I said:
I've been called on this a few times so fine. I take it back. It is indeed an oversimplification and I'll chalk it up to the crap that was being spewed a few weeks/months ago about "Damage being all there is to PvP." My bad. I do think that there are many that need to be reminded though.

You'd change your mind if/when you ever teamed with my Rad/Traps Corr.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I believe the small differences are meant to be stacked and stacked until they make a significant difference in the outcome of a team fight. (again the opourtunity to test lies within freedom atm) I believe the challenge at this time lies in a team leader's ability to adapt and communicate to their team what strategy to take get the most out of what AT/Sets are avalable... whether that be spiking, anti-spiking, turtling, base camping, rooftops only, or whatnot. A guide on the matter would also IMO be useful to many looking to avoid the trauma that is unorganized team PvP.

Yes it would. You're re-defining words with your own meanings. That is ridiculous.

And being informed is not the same as being correct. If anything, saying what you are saying while being informed, is even more embarrassing.

There's a lack of trust in those builds because, with I13, those builds have a lack of ability. It's only natural to have a lack of trust in something if it doesn't perform well.

The sheer amount of inconsistency & contradiction in your posts suggests to me you're a bit out of your depth here.

i went all out schizo on you after our duel.

"GF"
"F YOUR RUNNING"
"BUT RUNNING IS GOOD"
"A FORT? GOD IM BAD"
"WAIT WAIT, MAYBE, MAYBE THIS RANDOM PLAYER IS LESS BAD"
"GF"
"OH SCREW YOU I HATE YOU"
"BUT GF"

anyways. you dont play that fort like a blaster. everyone played forts like blasters. your lack of egomaniacal scrapperlock (yeah, happens on blasters) is what makes your toon work.

you lost all credibility when you started implying your rad/traps corrupter is good in the current system. /Traps was bad before i13.....it's horrible now.

I don't play against sets and toons... I play against the people behind them.

If I had a dime for every sucker I've outsmarted with my loltraps corr, I'd be a rich man.

Don't let the smoove taste fool ya Divine. If you can't make one work... that doesn't mean I can't.


P.S. What I was implying was that /Traps works well when teamed with a competent dev/ blaster... esp if both took fly... this isn't a Mid's guess or hearsay. It's from expereince.

Judging from the attitude and replies... I think It'd be better if folks here try and remember that its just a game. This is just a forum, and it's not that serious. I come from a place that seeks to enjoy my play time... not take is so damn serious.

Everyone who wants to PvP will die at some point. Everyone. Zone PvP is not arena... theres no timer, no kill count, and ya know what... theres no winners and losers! Just a bunch of toons hopping around hoping to kill more than they die. the end.

If people Rage ever time they die in PvP... then I can understand the desire to Only roll toons that have been cookie cut due to their top notch status. It's not that serious to me. Don't make PvP into something it is not... which is that damn serious.

you need HD off with TS and the boat maps? Serious for real stuff there.

Judging from most of your previous posts, you need to take your own advice.

Multimedia Genius Submission

I'm assuming TS is Thunderstrike, but what is HD?

TS = travel suppression

HD = heal decay

Multimedia Genius Submission

Ah, duh. Thank you so much Smeg. I was sitting here at lunch thinking um so I need High Definition and Taylor Swift to make me better at pvp?

You are a pinata. Pinatas should talk less. d;D

You are also a pinata. Pruf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp555fftQCQ d;D