Power effect combinations we just don't have
By
Bionic_Flea,
Posted on: 2010-01-12 10:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I like the ideas of your entire post, but this one really strikes me as awesome. I think it's a perfect ability to tack onto the assault rifle set in the form of "Suppression Fire."|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
*-Range: -Range is one of the rarest effects in the game, so it'd be quicker to list the things it has been applied to. I alternate between thinking that it'd be a great secondary effect for a blast set and thinking it'd be a horrible one. A summoned patch that gives enemies -Speed -Range could be interesting for a control or debuff set. |
The fading buff is also very interesting, and the engine can already support it. Think about how domination or containment is handled. Have the power apply three separate buffs, a 25% damage buff with a duration of 20 seconds, another 25% damage buff for 10 seconds, and another 25% damage buff for 5 seconds. Sounds like an "enforce morale" type power. You get a quick "Go get 'em" attitude that slowly wears off.
I wish I had something creative of my own to add, but I don't. I fully support this thread, however.
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Most of these ideas sound really cool and could be a lot of fun... except for this one.|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
*Corpse-Based Powers: Things like Stygian Circle and Fallout suggest that enemy corpses can be used as targets for basically anything that a living enemy can. So, we could have corpse-focused buffs in the style of Soul Drain. Or maybe a PBAoE toggle that makes every corpse in the area give off a debuff every few seconds to reflect that the user is just that good at demoralizing enemies. |
The problem being is that corpses tend to fade out relatively quickly. Plus it would be that by the time your power effects come into play, you don't need them: they're already dead. Also, what happens when you come up against a single hard foe (GM/EB/AV/Some Bosses)? With no corpses to fuel yourself, you're at a disadvantage.
I do like your notions on -Range though. That should be more prevalent, I think.
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A lot of these are issues that the existing ones run into, yeah, and it's a big reason that I suspect they aren't more prevalent (plus corpse-based powers not being very thematic for most sets). Unchain Essence immediately comes to mind, as does Stygian Circle when fighting AVs. Any self-buffs from them would have to have increased durations and/or effects to compensate.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
The problem being is that corpses tend to fade out relatively quickly. Plus it would be that by the time your power effects come into play, you don't need them: they're already dead. Also, what happens when you come up against a single hard foe (GM/EB/AV/Some Bosses)? With no corpses to fuel yourself, you're at a disadvantage.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
As far as scaling AoEs, fulcrum shift and heat loss are also good examples of this sort of thing. I think the reason we haven't seen more of these (and no debuff versions) is that they're probably a balance nightmare. The absolute amount of damage prevented and extra damage added from a power like freezing rain already scales linearly with extra foes in the area - making it scale quadratically could definitely raise some concerns. The reason I think fulcrum shift and heat loss can get away with it is that the damage cap is generally not that high, on the one hand, and that beyond a certain point extra recovery doesn't really have much benefit, on the other hand. But if the debuffs scaled, you'd have the strange situation that a large spawn is actually less dangerous than, or dies faster than, a small one. The idea is still interesting, though - it just strikes me as difficult to implement.
Another direction that hasn't been explored much, I think, is the general idea of 'toggelizing' enemy-affecting powers we'd usually expect to be clicks - telekinesis being pretty much the only example I can think of off the top of my head. For example, a common suggestion for a hypothetical 'electric control' set is an AoE hold that arcs similar to chain induction. What if you had such a hold that was a toggle? Make it root the player as long as it was active, but hold the targets as long as you can keep up endurance (with a scaling cost per foe held and long recharge so that it wouldn't be abused).
Another idea is toggle summons. What if you could have a summonable barrier of some sort (a sphere pseudopet that spams immobs?), for example, that you can target at a location and then dismiss by deactivating the toggle? What about, say, little ghosts that flit among your enemies causing disruption and damage as long as you can muster the concentration to keep them active? I don't know if the tech for this particular application is possible (I think it'd have to be based on short duration pets that are continually resummoned as long as the toggle is active), but I think it'd be cool.
As sort of a inside-out version of fading buffs, what about escalating debuffs? Say you have a debuff that initially provides only modest effect, but if the target(s) survives long enough the debuff starts to scale up (to some predefined maximum to avoid being ridiculous) , making it harder for them unless they can escape in some manner. This could be done for a click by having effects that are delayed or by having it grant a temp autopower that applies the debuff repeatedly, stacking with itself. Or, for a toggle, it could simply be done by making the debuff amount very small but very long lasting and then allowing it to stack.
Or, and this is a real long shot, what about a sort of 'teleport cage'? Make it a click location drop that summons a stationary pseudopet. Give that pet two powers: a (say) 30 foot radius power that repeatedly attempts to teleport all enemies inside it to the center of the cage (which I'm pretty sure they can do), and a 20 foot radius power that slows foes and gives them 100% teleport resistance. It would basically be a literal 'cage' that they can move about inside of but not escape (at least, things which can be teleported).
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This is I think how PGT in Traps used to work before it was 'fixed'
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
*Scaling AoEs: This already sort of exists, I believe, in the form of the Arsonist's bombs: They appear to spawn a Burn patch for every enemy in the AoE, and the patches are just big enough that if you hit a really tightly clumped patch of enemies, each enemy ends taking damage from multiple patches at once. Doing this with damage would probably be rather exploitable for players, but it could be interesting with a debuff power--it'd result in debuffs that are more powerful the more enemies you're up against, basically. |
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Actually, Guild Wars does a pretty good job with corpse exploitation skills. That's one of the only things I miss from that game. However, due to the cast times and the one-use-per-corpse rule, it would sometimes be exceedingly frustrating. For instance, if you're playing a toon that relies on exploiting corpses so that you can make zombie minions, but are fighting enemies that blow them up, there's a 0% chance that you'll get to use the corpses before they do.|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Most of these ideas sound really cool and could be a lot of fun... except for this one.
The problem being is that corpses tend to fade out relatively quickly. Plus it would be that by the time your power effects come into play, you don't need them: they're already dead. Also, what happens when you come up against a single hard foe (GM/EB/AV/Some Bosses)? With no corpses to fuel yourself, you're at a disadvantage. |
Of course, there are a lot of ways to avoid that. For one, allow corpses to be used by anyone and everyone, even multiple times. Just balance out the recharge times so you can't do it to one corpse over and over.
Anyway, some good ones in GW:
* Animate (blank) - There are a handful of zombie summon powers that work through exploiting corpses. You can summon little amalgamations of flesh and bone to make a temporary pet. Used to be you could keep as many pets going as you were able to (normal players, around 20, though with some superbuilds you could have virtually infinite), but it's now limited to 10.
* Putrid Explosion - The corpse explodes and does damage, much like Fallout. You could make a far weaker version that works on enemy corpses. While you would be partially right about how it only works after you already killed something, think of all the times you killed some minions and there were still plenty of enemies left.
* Soul Feast - Heal yourself, kinda like Stygian Circle. Potentially could be like a powerful Siphon Life, only off corpses. The downside of course would be that you can't use it in extended fights.
* Well of (blank) - A targeted ground effect appears which effects all foes or allies in the area for a while. Some examples are Well of Blood which causes +regen in an area, or Well of Darkness which makes it harder for foes to attack. This could be an effect that has a reasonable refire rate so that you can usually have it around, provided there are corpses. Of course, like before, it may not be available for extended fights. However, if you're fighting an AV, there's always going to be extra guys around beforehand, and once THEY fall you get at least one duration's length of the boost.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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There are a few of these already -- and generally they don't rely on a low chance to operate, either. For some examples, look at Freezing Rain (knockdown, damage, defense debuff, resistance debuff, recharge debuff, slow movement, "avoid"), Accelerate Metabolism (damage buff, recharge buff, some status effect resistance, recovery, movement speed), and even perhaps Ripper (damage, in a cone, crit chance, knockdown, recharge debuff, slow movement, extra ticks of toxic damage).
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
*Multiple Effect Powers: Most of our powers do only one or two things, but do them reliably. Why not powers that do a lot of things at a lower individual chance? For example, a glue bomb power could come out of the box with a chance for -speed, a chance for -recharge, a chance for immobilize, a chance for hold, and a chance for -ToHit, with the IC explanation that its effects depend on just where the glue splashes the target. It'd obviously make powers less predictable, but I think that knowing that your power has 5 discrete effects with a 20% chance each could be an interesting change from having a single effect that happens 100% of the time. The one big issue is that this could cause huge headaches once IOs come into play. |
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Nice thread, and some very cool ideas.
Short duration superbuffs are a great idea - I really like that one. It would require a fair amount of coordination between players, but it requires absolutely no new tech.
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There are still powers that do this. Invincibilty, Rise to the Challenge and Energy Absorption all scale to the number of foes you are facing. And many Dark powers and the Warshade Umbrals feed off of living and even dead targets in the latter case, growing stronger against larger groups. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
This is I think how PGT in Traps used to work before it was 'fixed'
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The idea of force multiplication makes that really dangerous, though. Your powers grow stronger as your team gets larger AND you gain more powers as your number of foes increase -- that's just asking for herding. Which is why the devs have said that they would not have, for instance, a scaling Inherent that made a Tanker's defenses stronger the more foes are around him. You already have that in many cases, and stacking it with other similar effects would just go out of control quickly.
In other words, such things are rare, but where you can find such powers, use them if you've got 'em.
And BTW, those scaling Burn patches are WAY more effective for the Assault Bot than the Arsonist.
I've always wanted a corpse-based endurance increase, similar to dull pain.
Incidentally, from the title alone I thought this was going to be about things like "We don't have any melee attacks that do -RES as a secondary effect." I was thinking about power combinations that we don't currently have on things. And I don't just mean single powers in a set like Stunning Shot or Tenebrous Tentacles, I mean like how every Radiation power does -DEF. So here are some we lack:
Melee attacks:
* -RES
Ranged attacks:
* Sleep
* Stun
We also don't have any attacks with the standard secondary effect of:
* Hold
* Fear
* Confuse
* Immobilize
* -DMG
* -Accuracy (-ToHit only)
* -Range
* -Max HP
* -Regen (okay we do but they're rare; mostly just widows)
So in summary, we need:
* Sonic Melee
* A ranged blast set that stuns
* An attack set that causes random, short-duration confuses
* An attack set that reduces the damage of enemies hit
* A set that can debuff range with a rapid enough attack chain
I for one want psi melee that fears and confuses enemies left and right. 
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yeah, I should've mentioned offensive AoEs. The part I found interesting from the burn patches was how it made an effect like damage, mezz, or a debuff more effective on groups by virtue of having more emanation points.| There are still powers that do this. Invincibilty, Rise to the Challenge and Energy Absorption all scale to the number of foes you are facing. And many Dark powers and the Warshade Umbrals feed off of living and even dead targets in the latter case, growing stronger against larger groups. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
We also don't have any attacks with the standard secondary effect of:
* Hold * Fear * Confuse * Immobilize * -DMG * -Accuracy (-ToHit only) * -Range * -Max HP * -Regen (okay we do but they're rare; mostly just widows) |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
I would like some kind of "reverse repel". Specifically, Gravity Controllers and Dominators need a "Black Hole" power. It could work as something with a droppable target, or as an anchor attack on an enemy. Picture the opposite of Hurricane. A power that sucks enemies towards a central location, instead of pushing them away.
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100 endurance (110 with accolades, potentially upwards of 120 between accos and IO sets) is enough to attack almost indefinitely assuming proper slotting and smart power usage. While a power such as this (or an ally +max end power) might be nice, it's probably too powerful given the way this game works. That's the problem with a lot of the suggestions here (not saying they're not good, but they might be problematic):|
Originally Posted by Enamel_32
I've always wanted a corpse-based endurance increase, similar to dull pain.
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The game's balanced around what we've already got. When the devs go to add new powersets, they need to be careful that any powers they add fit in that mold so as not to require extensive work patching up things that could be problematic. I think some new melee sets are in order (Psi, Sonic, Rad), though there's the other matter entirely of coming up with a thematic reason to include powers such as those. For example, Warshades are the only AT with access to powers that target enemy corpses, which is because they're the only AT with the theme to support it. I understand the players could come up with good thematic/roleplay reasons for particular powers, but that hasn't stopped the devs from holding back on adding features for roleplay/thematic reasons, even if they weren't particularly good ones (i.e. the "Dark Empathy" theme that got cut during I16 beta, part of the reason why we don't have customizable epic/patron pools, part of the reason we can't customize the look of MM pets, and part of the reasons given against a market merger).
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This power already exists, and is generally referred to as a Tanker.|
Originally Posted by Mike_Ray
A power that sucks enemies towards a central location, instead of pushing them away.
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>.>
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Interesting thread topic.
One idea I'd suggest is Phasing powers. No one likes them but only because the ones that annoy people work one way, stop some enemies from being affected.
I suggested in a control set, a phasing 'Ghost Gate' power that summons a pet that will cast intangibility on anyone (friend or foe) within a 25(?)ft (perhaps unresistable). It pretty much create a 'cage match' in that only those within the cage fight eachother and only those outside the cage could fight eachother with no cross over. Seeing as only a certain amount of foes can fit in that amount of space, it offers a form of hard control that scales upward the more foes that are engaging the team.
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This one comes up a lot, but as I recall, they've said that it would take a ton of work to put in. Pretty much the closest we have is taunting pets like Omega Maneuver.
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Originally Posted by Mike_Ray
I would like some kind of "reverse repel". Specifically, Gravity Controllers and Dominators need a "Black Hole" power. It could work as something with a droppable target, or as an anchor attack on an enemy. Picture the opposite of Hurricane. A power that sucks enemies towards a central location, instead of pushing them away.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Already here in Dark Extraction. The warshade dark fluffy power. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
Actually, Guild Wars does a pretty good job with corpse exploitation skills. That's one of the only things I miss from that game. However, due to the cast times and the one-use-per-corpse rule, it would sometimes be exceedingly frustrating. For instance, if you're playing a toon that relies on exploiting corpses so that you can make zombie minions, but are fighting enemies that blow them up, there's a 0% chance that you'll get to use the corpses before they do.
Of course, there are a lot of ways to avoid that. For one, allow corpses to be used by anyone and everyone, even multiple times. Just balance out the recharge times so you can't do it to one corpse over and over. Anyway, some good ones in GW: * Animate (blank) - There are a handful of zombie summon powers that work through exploiting corpses. You can summon little amalgamations of flesh and bone to make a temporary pet. Used to be you could keep as many pets going as you were able to (normal players, around 20, though with some superbuilds you could have virtually infinite), but it's now limited to 10. |
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| * Putrid Explosion - The corpse explodes and does damage, much like Fallout. You could make a far weaker version that works on enemy corpses. While you would be partially right about how it only works after you already killed something, think of all the times you killed some minions and there were still plenty of enemies left. |
Warshades already have most of the corpse handling powers. Now it might have been nice if necromancers had some more (they do have their Soul Extraction power which is of this nature), but there is at least one. Other dead effects might have been nice in that set, but the rather limited corpse duration in this game would complicate things a bit much if too many powers relied on them.
Too many alts to list.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Incidentally, from the title alone I thought this was going to be about things like "We don't have any melee attacks that do -RES as a secondary effect." I was thinking about power combinations that we don't currently have on things. And I don't just mean single powers in a set like Stunning Shot or Tenebrous Tentacles, I mean like how every Radiation power does -DEF. So here are some we lack:
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I can't see any new sets with stacking mezzes. Energy Melee already demonstrated what trouble that could be, and it got the nerf bat for it (I mean other than the ET nerf).
I do like most of the rest of the ideas though.
Too many alts to list.
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I've always thought an Unchain Essence clone for a Dark/ primary for Blasters could be awesome. But then, I'm all for anything that can be stuck in a blaster primary that makes them slightly more complicated than 'target some enemies and click a lot.'
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Warshades already have most of the corpse handling powers. Now it might have been nice if necromancers had some more (they do have their Soul Extraction power which is of this nature), but there is at least one. Other dead effects might have been nice in that set, but the rather limited corpse duration in this game would complicate things a bit much if too many powers relied on them.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
I love the additional secondary effects in attacks. The usual KB/KD/KU is nice, -end or end drain usually sucks. I do liek very much the damage and self heal from midnight grasp. Something similar to that could be done for endurance on a single target (like any of the AoE versions).
I'd like to see more power sets that don't use redraw for melee classes. Like a Toxic Melee set; little used damage type and you could have all sorts of cool powers w/ secondary effects (poisons, slows, fear, holds, ect). I know Demon Summoning has a whip attack/attacks so maybe they could modify that into a Plant Melee set w/ vine whip and again could have poisons, holds, immobs, ect.
I know this next one is almost heresy, but what about a tank/brute set w/ a team heal in it.
This might not be the correct Thread for this, but I've recently begun thinking about a spear set for melee characters (and probably dominators).
It could deal moderate lethal damage with the side effect of improved range and the single targets having a pierce effect, namely all being very narrow cones like Shatter from the War Mace set.
The set could have one or two javelin attacks as a ranged component with a different secondary effect, maybe -Def or DoT (bleeding).
Had to write this down somewhere.
Should be tons of work to develop though. All the animations for two-handed and one-handed versions (since I'd like a Spear/Shield char) and the possible spear designs, ranging from simple stone age spears to Vanguard or Rikti Laser stuff or Rularuu.
I have always wanted a "toggle" power that, while active, drains healths from your enemy and transfers it to you. Same with with an endurance one.
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I thought of something like that when I suggested a 'Goo Armor' set (concept being you either have some gelatinous layer covering your skin or you *are* primarily made of a gooey substance). Basically, it was a short ranged (10-15ft) toggle applied on the enemy that slows the target, applies short duration stacking Hold mags and deals damage to them. While you're running the toggle, you gain a substantial regen buff and maybe some resistance. It was called 'Absorb' or something....I thought it was a cool and unique take on a personal protection toggle. Don't know why no one else cared for it.
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Originally Posted by Reddi35
I have always wanted a "toggle" power that, while active, drains healths from your enemy and transfers it to you. Same with with an endurance one.
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This isn't so much a list of what you'd like to see... think of it more as puzzling out just what other types of powers the game is capable of right now. A lot of the sets that have come out since launch have challenged the original definitions of just what powers can do. Things like Chain Induction and Omega Maneuver are good examples--they're fairly simple (or, at least, they appear to be from the player end) recombinations of the original effects that shipped with the game, but they're quite a bit different from anything that was in the game when it came out.
Arcanaville's kind of to blame for this musing. It was her idea of a fire attack that gave enemies an ally damage aura that started me thinking about all this. So, I'm curious. What other interesting effect combinations can you think of that would result in new, unique powers? What combinations of effects do we just not have?
Some examples that my sleep-deprived mind has invented:
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.