This forum is so bad. It needs to be better.
By
BBhumeBB,
Posted on: 2010-01-11 01:26 in Suggestions and Ideas
It's a public. Forum... Public.
The Suggestions & Ideas forum is one of the more heated places to go because it's a trial by fire; as it should be.
People can and WILL deconstruct your idea down to the bare fundamentals, take the idea's biggest flaw and insecurity, and shine the world's brightest spotlight on it until someone suggests a change that makes it more tolerable.
Why? Because CoH is a great game, and we don't want to see the developers taking on every half-thought decision by someone who never bothered to think about AT balance, or otherwise.
As for Stickies? This forum has a whoooole bunch. Guess how many people typically read? Do you think that number would improve if there were more? Of course not. People would rather ask for forgiveness than permission.
My personal beef, however, lies in the attitude of many players, who are so very against any change to pre-existing content whatsoever; a small change to a costume piece is enough to cause some uproar in the community, and that, to me, is ridiculous. I'd love to see a big attitude adjustment, but it's not exactly my place to ask for such a thing.
Only things I can say are these:
There are already stickies in every forum, and they're roundly ignored, it seems. Right along with forum descriptions, and even forum *names* at times. I don't know that another sticky will do much of anything.
The bigger issue, though, is that you're talking about player based policing. Not really the right word for it, I think, as that somewhat implies partial mod powers (or higher attention from the mods.) Honestly, how well do you think it would go over if - say - *I* were given that responsibility? (I wouldn't take it, btw. Yes, I *could* do it, and - despite what some may think - do it fairly. But I'm not interested in the least.) But even without that - look at your own words, a compliation of the best suggestions of the week.
How is that standard being met? What makes a "best" suggestion? What makes it into that list? (Plus, honestly, if you're looking for 'no repeats,' I think you'd run out of new lists very, very fast.)
It just seems very... unfeasible, I suppose is what I'm looking for. And it'd just move some of the land mines around, with the mod staff getting pestered because (again, using me as this compiler for an example) "Bill wont' put this in the list because he has something against me/personal bias about the idea/is a stinky doodyhead."
The only way, short of changing people, to change this forum would be to lock it down. Get a list of dev statements on the common topics, have that posted. Have set threads (like Jay's costume request thread) on each common topic (server merge, market caps, vehicles... I'm sure we can rattle off pretty much the same list without thinking much about it) and delete any new thread that comes up about them, directing the poster to post there, doing the same with rants (including walls of text.)
And I think that'd kill the forum all together, frankly.
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All of the forums are public, but none of them are frankly as bad as this one. What you call 'trial by fire', I call a license to flame, troll and engage in petty little ego wars. I see far more of that than true deconstruction of ideas down to their fundamentals.|
Originally Posted by Sigium
It's a public. Forum... Public.
The Suggestions & Ideas forum is one of the more heated places to go because it's a trial by fire; as it should be. People can and WILL deconstruct your idea down to the bare fundamentals, take the idea's biggest flaw and insecurity, and shine the world's brightest spotlight on it until someone suggests a change that makes it more tolerable. Why? Because CoH is a great game, and we don't want to see the developers taking on every half-thought decision by someone who never bothered to think about AT balance, or otherwise. As for Stickies? This forum has a whoooole bunch. Guess how many people typically read? Do you think that number would improve if there were more? Of course not. People would rather ask for forgiveness than permission. My personal beef, however, lies in the attitude of many players, who are so very against any change to pre-existing content whatsoever; a small change to a costume piece is enough to cause some uproar in the community, and that, to me, is ridiculous. I'd love to see a big attitude adjustment, but it's not exactly my place to ask for such a thing. |
I also agree that CoH is a great game, but at the same time it is my *opinion* that this forum, which exists supposedly as a feedback forum, serves no purpose whatsoever in its current form.
Your point about stickies is well taken.
As for the attitude of the player base, I somewhat agree with you. There are far too many sacred cows.
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Point about stickies is well taken.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Only things I can say are these:
There are already stickies in every forum, and they're roundly ignored, it seems. Right along with forum descriptions, and even forum *names* at times. I don't know that another sticky will do much of anything. The bigger issue, though, is that you're talking about player based policing. Not really the right word for it, I think, as that somewhat implies partial mod powers (or higher attention from the mods.) Honestly, how well do you think it would go over if - say - *I* were given that responsibility? (I wouldn't take it, btw. Yes, I *could* do it, and - despite what some may think - do it fairly. But I'm not interested in the least.) But even without that - look at your own words, a compliation of the best suggestions of the week. How is that standard being met? What makes a "best" suggestion? What makes it into that list? (Plus, honestly, if you're looking for 'no repeats,' I think you'd run out of new lists very, very fast.) It just seems very... unfeasible, I suppose is what I'm looking for. And it'd just move some of the land mines around, with the mod staff getting pestered because (again, using me as this compiler for an example) "Bill wont' put this in the list because he has something against me/personal bias about the idea/is a stinky doodyhead." The only way, short of changing people, to change this forum would be to lock it down. Get a list of dev statements on the common topics, have that posted. Have set threads (like Jay's costume request thread) on each common topic (server merge, market caps, vehicles... I'm sure we can rattle off pretty much the same list without thinking much about it) and delete any new thread that comes up about them, directing the poster to post there, doing the same with rants (including walls of text.) And I think that'd kill the forum all together, frankly. |
As for who decides what's the "best ideas", what about voting? If an idea garners a lot of posters who agree with the idea or react positively then it makes the best idea of the week thread. Sure, you can game this by having a bunch of your friends vote for you idea, etc. but that only gets the idea submitted into the compiled thread. It's up to the developers to take such submissions seriously. Also, if it was known that such a thread were taken seriously by the development team, I think a counter force would develop that would try to prevent such manipulations.
As for who compiles, I think it just comes down to someone willing to put the effort into compiling it. If the compiler has a lot of favoritism then I think the forum will expose it.
I guess I'm convinced that the paranoia of forum goers can be a positive force for such an effort as much as it could hinder it.
Also, I agree that locking it down would probably kill this forum; however, right now, it wouldn't be a big loss aside from the fact that it keeps a certain amount of nerdrage away from the General forum.
One thing I advise is for people to read the Frequent Suggestions list >.>
Then again, that's outdated. How about we start a new one?
Until the mods can spare the time to police the morons, dunderheads, and trolls in this forum, we will not see the return of /jranger.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
I think updating the current Frequent Suggestions would probably be a good start. Som of the other things may not be feasible due to setup/people.
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A ban on posturing meta-posts that scold the other posters while letting the OP feel better than them for his or her enlightened position.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
So fellow players, how do we make this forum better? |
Reading further: Ah - let's vote on who gets to speak his piece. Surely, then anyone who gets on the wrong side of the comfy majority can be squelched.
Look, if you have an open forum for brainstorming, then you are going to get a high percentage of chaff for every precious kernel of wheat.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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Let's look at threads.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
So fellow players, how do we make this forum better?
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Section 1: The Original Post(er):
Every thread has one thing in common. It starts with a single post.
A bad opening post usually dooms the whole thread, even though any thread can devolve with little to no warning.
*Before starting a thread, do a little research. Think your thread through. What details will you need to include? Have there been any recent discussions on the same topic? Use the Search tool, or at least page back a few pages (try to get at least a week back). This isn't to say that you don't have the right to start a new conversation on the topic, but to get you to see previous conversations for facts and/or ideas that you might have missed.
*Start out in a positive tone. Starting out with hostility, ranting or whining pretty much gaurantees that you will end up with an argument, rather than a discussion. Also see: Trolling.
Tacking in argumentative things like implying that anyone who disagrees with your opinion must be a "Troll" or "Flaming" you is also counter-productive.
* Speak Clearly. You don't have to have an English degree or use perfect grammar, spelling and punctuation, but typing in gibberish or sloppy text not only looks bad (to some, since "bad" in this case is opinion) but is more difficult to read and most importantly.....generally causes your post to be taken less seriously.
Wall-Of-Text formatting (lack of line breaks, paragraphs, etc.) will cause your post to be ignored by many.
Your Grand Idea! This is the Suggestions Forum, a crucible by which bad suggestions are politely dismissed, great suggestions are supported and decent suggestions (the most common type) are discussed with intention to improve them. Or at least that's the intent.
* Present the problem or the desire for change. What is your intent? What is it that you want.
Be honest with the flaws in your suggestion. Let's face it, the ideas suggested here often have shortcomings or negative consequences if implented in rough draft form. Hopefully, your idea can be tweaked to be a win-win idea! Gracefully accept (or decline) the solutions that responders provide.
* It's not your baby. Remember that disagreement or criticism of your idea is not criticism of YOU PERSONALLY. It's about the idea, it's not a personal attack.
* Also: Don't be a drive-by poster who dumps an idea off in one post and abandons it. Don't be afraid to sit down and discuss the suggestion with us.
Section 2: The Initial Responders Yes, I'm talking about those who stumble across a fresh Suggestions thread.
* It's someone's baby. No matter how bad an idea is, try to keep your personal disdain out of it and politely point out the irredeemable flaws for which you spurn the idea.
If it's a mediocre idea, try to point out ways that it could be salvaged into something worth implementing.
* Don't get personal.
Section 3: The Discussion. Yeah, everybody. OPs included.
* Try to stay on topic, or at least in the near vicinity of the topic. Also see: Thread Derailment.
* Be polite and professional to each other.
* Remember that there are Moderators present and forum rules that no poster can expect to break without consequence.
* LolCats pictures are funny, but should be used rather sparingly, and only after the thread has already derailed.
* Links to that TV-Tropes site can cause readers to get lost for days. It's the Bermuda Triangle of the Internet. Leave warning.
Special Addendum: (Okay, this is for the Player Help: Questions section)
*When you ask a question and someone answers it, don't delete it. It just means that the next person who has the same question has to ask and wait. If you leave it there, they can just pop in, look and be done.
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No, that's the job of the CO forums.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
I often think that this forum exists solely to keep such trash out from the General forum.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
How do we make it better? we can't. Humans will come up with dumb ideas until the end of time. I never suggest anything because 5 minutes later I realize that it was a good idea not to post, as either the logic, reality, or "yeah right" comes to my mind.
Give any group of people a suggestion box and they will put anything they can possibly think of into it. I do read them still, however. Some of the explanations that follow the idea are lolz.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, that's the job of the CO forums.
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My goodness you really don't like that game, do you? lol
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(That's how the same statement would have looked like a little while back, before CO opened. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, that's the job of the WOW forums.
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)
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See also: Sturgeon's Law. Ninety percent of everything is crud.
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Originally Posted by BBhumeBB
Look, if you have an open forum for brainstorming, then you are going to get a high percentage of chaff for every precious kernel of wheat.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Perzactly, if slightly cleaned up :-)
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
See also: Sturgeon's Law. Ninety percent of everything is crud.
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My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
'crud' is the original wording for Sturgeon's Law. Using 'crap' is a misquote.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Is there truly a problem with that? IF I see a thread that looks interesting from the Title; I might read it a bit. If I think it is interesting enough; I might read the whole thread. If I find that the topic is something I have knowledge of or a moderately strong opinion on; I will probably post that. If it is (IMHO) blatantly deleterious to the game; I may pull out the portable flamethrower. It is what it is. If someone feels strongly about a suggestion in the positive; chances are that there are as many (or more) who feel as strongly in the negative. Who is to say which one is correct in their opinion? You? Not anymore than me, I am afraid, but the final arbiters are the Mods. |
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Whenever I want to witness forum drama, the Suggestions and Ideas forum never seems to disappoint. While there are a number of good ideas that are presented daily, they seem to get drowned in a sea of posts that repeat oft mentioned suggestions, contain terrible suggestions that are poorly thought out or posts that are just nerdrage vents from frustrated or angry players.
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| I often think that this forum exists solely to keep such trash out from the General forum. This forum could be a lot better. |
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| I've often thought that this forum could do with a bit of player based policing. Not the type where players didactically cite forums rules, but where players put together a stickied guide for how to make a good suggestions and perhaps put together a weekly compilation of the best suggestions submitted. |
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| I think something like that would be far more useful to our dev and community relations team than going through hundreds of threads or adjudicating pissing matches that seem to occur far more frequently than they should. |
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| I'm by no means an expert on forum moderation or on what constitutes a good suggestion; however, I think that this forum could be potentially a good resource and I hate seeing it squandered. |
BTW it IS a good resource just as it is. Some may not see it that way, but heated discussion is like the blast furnace for gold; it burns off the dross, and leaves a purer product. And to abuse another metaphor; only though putting an idea under pressure can you reveal the gem that it really is. The Devs apparently do keep an eye on this Forum because may of the Suggestions found here have been implemented over the years. The proof of the pudding is in the eating (or playing). Thanks to the great flamed ideas that survived this Forum.
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| So fellow players, how do we make this forum better? |
And I didnt even use any Latin so as not to incur the wrath of TheOcho.
Ninus Lvl 50 Bots/Dark/SM Mastermind Badges: 1384 @Ninus on Global
Put an Ebil MasterMind in the Obal Office: It wont be the first time
Campaigning for Global Global Ignore Champion since 2009!
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Here we go, I show my actual ignorance...|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Until the mods can spare the time to police the morons, dunderheads, and trolls in this forum, we will not see the return of /jranger.
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Who was JRanger?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki//jranger|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Here we go, I show my actual ignorance...
Who was JRanger? |
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/jranger is a meme meaning no. JRanger was a poster on the Official Forums who would reply to ideas on the Suggestions and Ideas forum with long, descriptive posts listing the reason or reasons he disagreed with the original suggestion. When these descriptive posts went either ignored or disparaged by multiple suggestion-makers, he finally started responding to ideas he disagreed with by only stating "no" without further explanation. Eventually, instead of saying "no", users started replying to posts by simply saying "/jranger" instead (the first instance being Memphis_Bill 9/21/07, since purged). Both actions were ultimately made actionable and "bannable" by Ex Libris[1]. Although it ultimately led to JRanger being banned from the Official Forums, the usage still sees some use on the PWNZ forums and at least once by Back Alley Brawler (since purged) after this rule was placed. |
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Ah - thus does popular history replace what actually happened. I'd always heard it the other way round. Thanks :-)
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
'crud' is the original wording for Sturgeon's Law. Using 'crap' is a misquote.
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My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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Someone sticky that post! |
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Let's look at threads.
Section 1: The Original Post(er): Every thread has one thing in common. It starts with a single post. A bad opening post usually dooms the whole thread, even though any thread can devolve with little to no warning. *Before starting a thread, do a little research. Think your thread through. What details will you need to include? Have there been any recent discussions on the same topic? Use the Search tool, or at least page back a few pages (try to get at least a week back). This isn't to say that you don't have the right to start a new conversation on the topic, but to get you to see previous conversations for facts and/or ideas that you might have missed. *Start out in a positive tone. Starting out with hostility, ranting or whining pretty much gaurantees that you will end up with an argument, rather than a discussion. Also see: Trolling. Tacking in argumentative things like implying that anyone who disagrees with your opinion must be a "Troll" or "Flaming" you is also counter-productive. * Speak Clearly. You don't have to have an English degree or use perfect grammar, spelling and punctuation, but typing in gibberish or sloppy text not only looks bad (to some, since "bad" in this case is opinion) but is more difficult to read and most importantly.....generally causes your post to be taken less seriously. Wall-Of-Text formatting (lack of line breaks, paragraphs, etc.) will cause your post to be ignored by many. Your Grand Idea! This is the Suggestions Forum, a crucible by which bad suggestions are politely dismissed, great suggestions are supported and decent suggestions (the most common type) are discussed with intention to improve them. Or at least that's the intent. * Present the problem or the desire for change. What is your intent? What is it that you want. Be honest with the flaws in your suggestion. Let's face it, the ideas suggested here often have shortcomings or negative consequences if implented in rough draft form. Hopefully, your idea can be tweaked to be a win-win idea! Gracefully accept (or decline) the solutions that responders provide. * It's not your baby. Remember that disagreement or criticism of your idea is not criticism of YOU PERSONALLY. It's about the idea, it's not a personal attack. * Also: Don't be a drive-by poster who dumps an idea off in one post and abandons it. Don't be afraid to sit down and discuss the suggestion with us. Section 2: The Initial Responders Yes, I'm talking about those who stumble across a fresh Suggestions thread. * It's someone's baby. No matter how bad an idea is, try to keep your personal disdain out of it and politely point out the irredeemable flaws for which you spurn the idea. If it's a mediocre idea, try to point out ways that it could be salvaged into something worth implementing. * Don't get personal. Section 3: The Discussion. Yeah, everybody. OPs included. * Try to stay on topic, or at least in the near vicinity of the topic. Also see: Thread Derailment. * Be polite and professional to each other. * Remember that there are Moderators present and forum rules that no poster can expect to break without consequence. * LolCats pictures are funny, but should be used rather sparingly, and only after the thread has already derailed. * Links to that TV-Tropes site can cause readers to get lost for days. It's the Bermuda Triangle of the Internet. Leave warning. Special Addendum: (Okay, this is for the Player Help: Questions section) *When you ask a question and someone answers it, don't delete it. It just means that the next person who has the same question has to ask and wait. If you leave it there, they can just pop in, look and be done. |
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If it is stickied it'll just add more to the list of posts that people respond with "read the stickies/rules/description".
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Originally Posted by ReclusesPhantom
Someone sticky that post!
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Wow, he even got wiki-fied XD|
Originally Posted by Tired Angel
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Thanks for the info, TA =]
Hey, we both have the same Forum name initials...>_> *shrug*
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Its amazing the stuff you can find on Wiki when you're board at work! In fact I was reading that article again just a few mins before I read this thread!|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Wow, he even got wiki-fied XD
Thanks for the info, TA =] Hey, we both have the same Forum name initials...>_> *shrug* |
Hmmmmm, I think the world may implode.... or maybe not!
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Whenever I want to witness forum drama, the Suggestions and Ideas forum never seems to disappoint. While there are a number of good ideas that are presented daily, they seem to get drowned in a sea of posts that repeat oft mentioned suggestions, contain terrible suggestions that are poorly thought out or posts that are just nerdrage vents from frustrated or angry players.
I often think that this forum exists solely to keep such trash out from the General forum. This forum could be a lot better.
I've often thought that this forum could do with a bit of player based policing. Not the type where players didactically cite forums rules, but where players put together a stickied guide for how to make a good suggestions and perhaps put together a weekly compilation of the best suggestions submitted. I think something like that would be far more useful to our dev and community relations team than going through hundreds of threads or adjudicating pissing matches that seem to occur far more frequently than they should.
I'm by no means an expert on forum moderation or on what constitutes a good suggestion; however, I think that this forum could be potentially a good resource and I hate seeing it squandered.
So fellow players, how do we make this forum better?