With the right IOs, characters are far, far more powerful than they ever thought about being in the pre-ED world. They don't deal as much raw damage per attack, since no one in their right mind would usually six slot attacks for damage, but they have much higher sustained DPS, due to higher recharge and far higher endurance recovery (plus slotting more recharge and end reduction in the same six slots). Moreover, you can do things with IOs you could never do with slotting SOs, such as adding defense, adding knockback protection, etc.
In general, yes, IOs replaced most of what was lost. It's not a one-for-one replacement, but it's a stronger place overall.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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*head-tilts*|
Originally Posted by Zmoosh
The first time I played this game I came from SWG after that game was ruined. So when the ED hit I quit without a second thought, even though I was playing with some awesome peeps in my SG.
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Um... ED hit before NGE. ED was in Issue 6 in October 2005: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_6
NGE was November 2005: http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/24/st...ayer-backlash/
I guess I'm a bit tossed on the dates since this line implies time-travel.
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Long story short I heard about the IO's and now I'm back on trial, and I LOVE this game. I loved it then and I love it now. What I want to know is do IO's bring back the pre ED power/fun? P.S. I've been playing a fire/dark corr and it feels like everything a defender should have been. |
Defenders are supposed to place emphasis on defending, protecting teammates, debuff opponents, and so on. Both pretty much fill their intended roles.
As to whether or not IO's make up for ED?
Well, ED was pretty much good game design. It's problem was the timing. CoH was already established with 5 free expansions, and with a launch date of 04/27/04, over a calendar year of play. When I first played CoH I was struck by the enhancement design and outright told an NCSoft rep that being able to 6 stack enhancements was just asking for players to skip over the vast array of other enhancements available... a point of view that turned out to be correct. Players wound up focusing on singular effects of powers, rather than stretching out and performing different roles in the game.
True, a large percentage of the player-base didn't like having to actually be what they were, but as sales later showed, ED didn't have the sales impact that genuine design blunders like NGE had.
Do IO's allow players to be more powerful than pre-ED avatars?
Well, yes and no.
Yes, IO's can allow players to be really good at what their archtypes do. Controllers can be really good at controlling. Tanks can be really good at taking damage. Scrappers and Blasters can be more damaging, or a little bit tougher, and so on.
IO's can also allow players to be really bad at what they do. Case in point is the recent trend I see on the forums to focus on soft-capping defenses on an avatar. Most of the soft-capped builds I see sacrifice class defining powers, and make players weaker at what their avatar is supposed to do, in an attempt to allow the avatar to do what the avatar isn't supposed to do.
So it's a double edged sword. IO's can be a very useful tool, but they can also make a decent power combination into something that can't, or won't, fulfill it's design role in the game.
Yes, then can allow players to blaze past some of the power restrictions of the games. Stone tanks can remove the recharge penalty or damage penalty of Granite Armor. Many avatars can make hasten permanent. Ice / Rads can actually get enough endurance back to do something more than choose between controlling or debuffing.
Is it a better system than ED? Well, the IO system builds on top of the ED restrictions, adding a complexity to the game that simply wasn't there back in 2005.
People have more reasons to keep on playing at 50 and even more so now no two peoples characters need ever be built the same.
I didn't get why people hung up their capes so easily.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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There's not really any good reason that should be happening. Anyone proposing such builds are doing a poor job.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
IO's can also allow players to be really bad at what they do. Case in point is the recent trend I see on the forums to focus on soft-capping defenses on an avatar. Most of the soft-capped builds I see sacrifice class defining powers, and make players weaker at what their avatar is supposed to do, in an attempt to allow the avatar to do what the avatar isn't supposed to do.
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I'd like to see some examples.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Umm, the NGE page you linked to was from 2005.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
*head-tilts*
Um... ED hit before NGE. ED was in Issue 6 in October 2007: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_6 NGE was November 2007: http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/24/st...ayer-backlash/ I guess I'm a bit tossed on the dates since this line implies time-travel. |
Quote:
don't mind her most of what she says is hot air.
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Originally Posted by Redbone
Umm, the NGE page you linked to was from 2005.
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I don't remember the exact timing between cu/nge fiasco and the ED. I just remember being really pissed that CoH was following the same route to crapville.
I was tempted at this point to turn on the rant machine and turn loose on the ED, but I'm not. Let's just say I wasn't pleased by the ED and I'm still not.
Thx for the responses, especially the IO 411.
wasnt the game rather silly pre-ed?
with all the fire tank shenannigans and /devices being the FoTM secondary for all blasters?
It was rather silly pre-ED because everyone could be insanely powerful. It is also rather silly now, but the uber sillyness is only available to those with the influence and dedication.
I don't mind really, because my main is significantly more powerful than he could have ever been with pre-ED rules.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I joined long after ED went through, as did a lot of players. From all the talk it sounds like it was a necessary evil.
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I too started playing long after ED went into effect, and inventions were introduced. From everything I've heard so far, the pre-ED/pre-inventions game sounds both immensely silly as well as massively boring to me.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I joined long after ED went through, as did a lot of players. From all the talk it sounds like it was a necessary evil.
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It kind of went both ways.|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I joined long after ED went through, as did a lot of players. From all the talk it sounds like it was a necessary evil.
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Used to be you could 6-slot for damage and get +200% damage or 6-slot Stamina for +200% bonus. Or perma Hasten by itself. Not only was everyone really powerful, but it sort of meant there was only one way to slot things. In attacks pretty much everyone did 1x ACC and 5x DMG. Hasten in every build (perma) and Stamina 6-slotted. Enhancement Diversification was a sort of way to "force" players to use different slotting setups.
Now that we have IOs, there are billions of slotting combinations that a player can choose to achieve results. You can't get +200% damage or Hasten perma as easy as before, but you can do things you couldn't do before, like build defense, global accuracy, higher than perma-Hasten recharge. Stuff like that.
The real kick to the crotch was having all those super-powerful toons reduced to be significantly weaker, and then the very long stretch of time before IOs were introduced. Sort of a big roller coaster dip where powerful toons had to be comparatively weak during the wait for IOs where they could become powerful again. ED+IOs > pre-ED. Just that length of time inbetween them is what caused people to ragequit.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yeah, I could certainly see that as causing problems. How long a time period was it between the two?
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Originally Posted by Dispari
The real kick to the crotch was having all those super-powerful toons reduced to be significantly weaker, and then the very long stretch of time before IOs were introduced. Sort of a big roller coaster dip where powerful toons had to be comparatively weak during the wait for IOs where they could become powerful again. ED+IOs > pre-ED. Just that length of time inbetween them is what caused people to ragequit.
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Nor did I... then again, I came in at the end of I6 :P
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I didn't get why people hung up their capes so easily.
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No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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That, on top of the fact that one issue earlier, we had the GDN. I suspect many of the people that left could've dealt with one big "nerf", but the two hits to characters abilities in quick succession really hurt. They were probably both for the best in the long run, but I can see why people left at the time.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
The real kick to the crotch was having all those super-powerful toons reduced to be significantly weaker, and then the very long stretch of time before IOs were introduced. Sort of a big roller coaster dip where powerful toons had to be comparatively weak during the wait for IOs where they could become powerful again. ED+IOs > pre-ED. Just that length of time inbetween them is what caused people to ragequit.
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Quote:
My main gripe is the timing of ED. They introduced ED and were extremely vague that it was necessary for an upcoming change to game mechanics. But IOs were introduced many months later. If they had delayed ED, then introduced ED and IOs simultaneously, it would've been much better IMO.|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I joined long after ED went through, as did a lot of players. From all the talk it sounds like it was a necessary evil.
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To be clear, I think the game is much better and has more depth with IOs and ED.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Quote:
Issue 6 (ED) - 27th of October, 2005.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Yeah, I could certainly see that as causing problems. How long a time period was it between the two?
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Issue 9 Breakthrough (inventions) -1st of May, 2007.
So it was 19 months, more or less.
However, don't forget that ED wasn't the main/only cause of the pain. It was the combination of ED and the Global Defence Decrease (GDN or Global Defense Nerf in common parlance) that caused a lot of pain for toons based on defence/resistance.
There was a lot of rebalancing and jiggery-pokery in Issue 5 (31st August 2005), so really the pain and waiting *could* at a stretch be said to be 21 months.
And I'm not going to even touch the whole PR debacle that was Statesman's posting through that period with a 30 foot barge pole <twitch twitch>
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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I used to laugh so hard when a player would plant trip mines around the spawn then plant a time bomb right in the middle and then watched as the bomb when off knocking the rest into the trip mines. Would take forever to set up but it was the Ruth Goldberg machine of CoH lol
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Originally Posted by Player99
wasnt the game rather silly pre-ed?
with all the fire tank shenannigans and /devices being the FoTM secondary for all blasters? |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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It was more hilarious then boring, I would giggle like a sissy girl watching regen scrappers tank Hamidon or should I say look at the slide show of them tanking Hamidon lol.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I too started playing long after ED went into effect, and inventions were introduced. From everything I've heard so far, the pre-ED/pre-inventions game sounds both immensely silly as well as massively boring to me.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
It was. Things were very balanced (more so than now) before I6.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I joined long after ED went through, as did a lot of players. From all the talk it sounds like it was a necessary evil.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Let's not forget that a lot of the examples people are giving of how ridiculous the game was pre ED had very little to do with what ED changed. Fire Tankers were strong because nothing ran out of Burn patches. They were tough enough to pull it off because it was before both ED and the GDN. Regen scrappers were tanking Hamidon because of the way old IH worked as much as because they could six slot it.
Lots of other game mechanics have changed between now and ED. It's hard to look at any one thing that was once "overpowered" and claim that ED fixed it.
ED transformed one set of standard slotting templates into another. It wasn't until we got inventions that people really truly started varying their slotting significantly, because there are so many possible overall design goals. Before, you were just slotting your individual powers for some maximal function for that power. Inventions allow you to slot with a bigger picture in mind.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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My INV scrapper- Boltcutter, my first 50, back when it commonly took a person over 500 hours- went from 50 times as tough as my wife's Fire blaster to around 6 times as tough. | It's hard to look at any one thing that was once "overpowered" and claim that ED fixed it. |
That's overpowered. And I5/I6 (they happened in quick succession) fixed it.
But I still don't play him because I remember what he COULD do and he can't do that any more. It's like watching an old boxer try to make a comeback.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Right. That reinforces my point, because the big change there wasn't ED. It was ED and the GDN. ED was, for schedule A enhanced powers, a roughly reduction to 2/3rds of slotted strength of powers. For schedule B enhanced powers, which include defense and DR powers, it was a reduction to about 4/5ths or 8/11ths their slotted strength. Most of what your Tanker lost was due to the GDN.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
My INV scrapper- Boltcutter, my first 50, back when it commonly took a person over 500 hours- went from 50 times as tough as my wife's Fire blaster to around 6 times as tough.
That's overpowered. And I5/I6 (they happened in quick succession) fixed it. |
Note that you're wife's Blaster could have had very high defense before the GDN, depending on pool and other powers chosen. Granted, it wasn't nearly as useful against as many things back then as it would be now, as mobs had effective +toHit with rank and level.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think that's a very common feeling. For example, I know intellectually that my Fire/Ice tanker was overpowered before the Burn nerf but I can't bear to play him now because he's just a shadow of his formerly awesome self. The various changes have overall been good for the game but they can be hard to reconcile with characters we've become attached to.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
But I still don't play him because I remember what he COULD do and he can't do that any more.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
The first time I played this game I came from SWG after that game was ruined. So when the ED hit I quit without a second thought, even though I was playing with some awesome peeps in my SG.
Long story short I heard about the IO's and now I'm back on trial, and I LOVE this game. I loved it then and I love it now. What I want to know is do IO's bring back the pre ED power/fun?
P.S. I've been playing a fire/dark corr and it feels like everything a defender should have been.