Super Booster Pack V
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-04 18:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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So ninja clothing just grows out of their skin naturally, right?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
None of the items you mentioned are natural. Backpacks, quivers, and scabbards, jetpacks, and rocket boots are made by technology. No one is born with them.
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The ninja clothing is not the source of the ninja's powers either.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
Someone please explain why it makes sense to have robes and swords in a natural pack, but not backpacks and quivers. And I don't mean from a technical standpoint, I mean what's going on with this crazy argument where jetpacks don't belong in a natural pack because you aren't born with them, but gloves and masks are fine.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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It's not even difficult. The fallacy comes early on when someone suggests that "what you are born with" is the definition of natural super powers. It's not. I think it's closer to the definition of a Mutant super power.
If we examine the game even in brief we discover that Natural, as defined by the game, is a power source that incorporates being extremely well trained. You know, like a Ninja. Natural Origin SO Enhancements all represent either "Military" level training techniques or have a strong Martial Arts theme to them. Natural Contacts all tend to be highly trained secret agent types or the like. So it's clear that for this game, as a power source, "Natural" refers to an elite and amazing level of training.
You know, like a Ninja might have.
So... a jetpack really is a piece of Technology, and wouldn't really fit. There's nothing wrong with a scabbard or quiver, but there were technical hurdles involved and I'd rather be having this discussion about a pack I already have than be waiting for those issues to be resolved. In the meanwhile, the robes, masks, and the like that we did get all support the game's definition of "Natural" super powers, where as a jetpack doesn't. Now can we all shut the hell up about Super Booster Pack IV and discuss our hopes for Pack V, as the thread is clearly hoping to do?
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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Um, that should be "tie a young, attractive, seemingly virginal and helpless individual of either gender to railroad track." Female villains demand equal opportunity in tying people to railroad tracks, or we'll punch your face in and eat your puppy. Furthermore, female heroes demand potential love interests to save from railroad tracks, or once again you will get your face punched in (but we'll make sure to find a good home for your puppy.)|
Originally Posted by GrinningSpade
Indeed, we are sorely lacking maniacal laughter and a tie damsel to railroad track emote! Next booster should be:
Classic Villainy! |
And I second, third, and fourth the need for tentacles.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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okay, now you're just teasing poor Dispari at this point! |
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
It's not even difficult. The fallacy comes early on when someone suggests that "what you are born with" is the definition of natural super powers. It's not. I think it's closer to the definition of a Mutant super power.
If we examine the game even in brief we discover that Natural, as defined by the game, is a power source that incorporates being extremely well trained. You know, like a Ninja. Natural Origin SO Enhancements all represent either "Military" level training techniques or have a strong Martial Arts theme to them. Natural Contacts all tend to be highly trained secret agent types or the like. So it's clear that for this game, as a power source, "Natural" refers to an elite and amazing level of training. You know, like a Ninja might have. So... a jetpack really is a piece of Technology, and wouldn't really fit. There's nothing wrong with a scabbard or quiver, but there were technical hurdles involved and I'd rather be having this discussion about a pack I already have than be waiting for those issues to be resolved. In the meanwhile, the robes, masks, and the like that we did get all support the game's definition of "Natural" super powers, where as a jetpack doesn't. Now can we all shut the hell up about Super Booster Pack IV and discuss our hopes for Pack V, as the thread is clearly hoping to do? |
you said yourself: "military elite" and "superspy" fit some of the in game precedents for natural origin characters. a jet pack rides the fence between tech and natural. in many contexts it could be seen as a piece of elaborate elite gear that only those with the correct connections & training have access to and are able to use adeptly. the truth of it is the developers went with asian martial arts as the focused theme of this pack. and that's that. those who were disappointed in this choice, myself included, should at this point move on. but your argument that quivers, scabbards, hip holsters, boot holsters and sheaths and some higher tech but still merc and superspy flavored gear is not fitting for a natural themed pack is as silly as this extended argument. (yes. I see how a jetpack and some more elite items become tech in the context of an iron man type character, but you have to admit that jetpacks have also looooong been a part of pulp spy aesthetics.)more interesting AND germane to the thread subject though is your brief assessment that powers you are born with. I've honestly never looked at it that succinctly. but I think it's a good definition. but what about what I'd consider the game's most obvious precedent for mutants: DE devoured? aren't they considered mutants? the mutant inherent power is a spore burst and IIRC even mentions the devouring earth in its descriptive text. beyond monstrous and animal parts, I for the life of me draw nothing but blanks for other options for this pack.
admittedly though, the number and range of monstrous and animal themes possible could be spread across at least 3 different booster packs. bird heads, talons, dimensional feather details for shoulders, chest, belt. amphibian heads, patterns, feet, gills, etc. revisioned and revamped fur and about any variety of mammalian heads from gorillas to bears to better cats and canines. full bushy tails. animated tails of a wide range with a modified "cape physics" of their own. the whole devouring earth/swamp thing aesthetic could also be pushed harder and further with a wider range of plant/hominid hybrid parts. all of this, despite some earlier renditions of plant details and our limited current selection of monstrous details in the CC, all of it represents a huge hole IMO in the character creator library.
the only other direction I could see going for what I understand CoX's definition of mutant is into the grotesque. and I'm not sure how we'd get there. second heads? extra limbs? grotesquely muscular figures? flippers for hands? all of those things IMO go beyond the bounds of the current engine. I guess a few more oozy and disgusting auras could help us realize the grotesque, especially if they like combat auras were available from level 1. but beyond that, nope, still drawing blanks other than loads and loads of anthropomorphic animal bits.
Non-monstrous animal stuff (aka the Furry Pack) ==
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
... I didn't say that scabbards and quivers are high tech. I would have been fine with them. I did say that the jetpack is high tech, and I stand by that, especially in this game. That's the Sky Raider's whole fricking gimmick is that they have Jetpacks, and they're a Tech Faction, not a natural one. I'm not sure why a Jetpack gets to be a Natural option just because James Bond wore one once. Well Batman throws boomerangs every day and we don't get those either. But weapon sheaths and quivers I would be fine with.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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The confusing thing about gadgets is that there's really no clear line where something stops being natural and starts being tech. It's more opinion-based than anything, and there's no real right answer.|
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
... I didn't say that scabbards and quivers are high tech. I would have been fine with them. I did say that the jetpack is high tech, and I stand by that, especially in this game. That's the Sky Raider's whole fricking gimmick is that they have Jetpacks, and they're a Tech Faction, not a natural one. I'm not sure why a Jetpack gets to be a Natural option just because James Bond wore one once. Well Batman throws boomerangs every day and we don't get those either. But weapon sheaths and quivers I would be fine with.
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Using a stick as a weapon is pretty much considered natural. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who considers a stick technology. A sword is technology, although really low-tech. Most people still consider that natural. Bows are low-tech gadgets. Guns are a lot higher in tech, but some people will still call those natural (myself included). Then somewhere between pistols and mech suits, it becomes tech.
There are a lot of factors that could make it suddenly be tech, but all those are questionable. Does the gadget allow you to do something you normally can't do? Well, so does a sword. Does the object do most of the work or are you? I think guns do most of the work. Is it something you had to train to use or did just picking it up allow you to use it? Well, guns aren't that hard to use, and jetpacks surely require practice. Is it only things that aren't the norm in our world? It's not like jetpacks are uncommon in CoH.
Personally, I would call a jetpack technology. But for the life of me I can't figure out why. And I don't think I'd have any good reason to tell someone who thinks it's natural that they're wrong.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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My rules are if it breaks more than three laws of accepted physics, it's tech.
If it does'nt exist in the real world, it's tech
If it let's you use any non-weapon based powerset in this game, it's tech.
If it's conneced to your flesh, tech.
Also, Guns and swords don't require training to use? wel yeah, they don't require training to pick up and swing/fire, but they recquire training to use to any decent effect that's not "shoot myself in the goodies"
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Using a stick as a weapon is pretty much considered natural. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who considers a stick technology.
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O RLY?
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A stick off the ground, Wes. |
Originally Posted by Westley
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
A stick off the ground, Wes.
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That WAS a stick off the ground.... with other stuff added...
If it allows you capabilities that the average citizen of your world/setting/timeline would consider extra-ordinary, then it's tech. An assault rifle is not tech, people see them all the time and have an expectation what they can do. A laser pulse rifle, even if it is operated EXACTLY the same way, is tech because it's extraordinary for the world you are in. 500 years in the future this may no longer be so. That is the pickle of technology, it only stays a super power for so long. In a Bronze Age World, a Knight with a steel sword and armor would be a tech super hero. In our world he's an anachronism. Thus, as the average citizen of Paragon City is meant to find jetpacks exotic, they are an example of Tech superpowers.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
But... you can buy jetpacks for REALLY cheap now... in fact anyone can in Paragon City.
I honestly see more jetpacks than assault rifles.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yes, but considering they all look the same, I'd imagine one genius super scientist has the patent on them, whilst there's buttloads of differnet Assault rifles. Thus they''re exotic, even if lots of peple use them.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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There are at least 5 different jetpacks (Sky Raider, Longbow, Goldbricker, Christmas, and Mini-Booster). And we could assume that if they came out with a booster pack, there may be more than one.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
Yes, but considering they all look the same, I'd imagine one genius super scientist has the patent on them, whilst there's buttloads of differnet Assault rifles. Thus they''re exotic, even if lots of peple use them.
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And different assault rifles is a recent thing. Was it tech before weapon customization?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Considering that thing shoots flames, napalm, bullets, beanbags, grenades, and more bullets, yeah, that's a tech rifle.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
Judging based on what is available to players is a fallacy. Every player represents the extraordinary or exceptional case. To judge the tech level of the world, you need to look at the environment. Assault Weapons are so common even dimwitted Trolls can fire them, and even minor hoodlums have them in ample supply. Jetpacks however, only appear for the most part in high tech scenarios.
Though I will grant you that Longbow Eagles have them in great supply, and that Longbow is about the definition of a Natural group for this game. But Longbow is also a new development, and could be held to represent the curve of modern technology's advance. Even so, other groups with jetpacks (Sky Raiders, Wyvern) are definately Technology based.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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How? They cost Influence, which is "hero money," and I'm willing to bet Portal Corp doesn't let average Joe off the street just stroll into the Shadow Shard to buy one.|
Originally Posted by Westley
But... you can buy jetpacks for REALLY cheap now... in fact anyone can in Paragon City.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
There are at least 5 different jetpacks (Sky Raider, Longbow, Goldbricker, Christmas, and Mini-Booster). And we could assume that if they came out with a booster pack, there may be more than one.
And different assault rifles is a recent thing. Was it tech before weapon customization? |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Longbow are a hybrid group, the Wardens are Mutant or Science.|
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
Though I will grant you that Longbow Eagles have them in great supply, and that Longbow is about the definition of a Natural group for this game. But Longbow is also a new development, and could be held to represent the curve of modern technology's advance. Even so, other groups with jetpacks (Sky Raiders, Wyvern) are definately Technology based.
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I view Wyvern as more Natural than Tech, since the only high-tech stuff they have is the jetpacks, and not all of them have those.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Where do you think the influence comes from when a citizen you just saved walks up to you and bows? Out of thin air? They carry the **** around with them for just such an occasion. If some stoners wanted a jetpack, they could just pool all their money together like if they were going to order a pizza.| How? They cost Influence, which is "hero money," |
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| and I'm willing to bet Portal Corp doesn't let average Joe off the street just stroll into the Shadow Shard to buy one. |
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Wyvern drops Tech DOs, Longbow drop Natural. Also, I have to imagine there's some cutting edge technology involved in their bows that never run out of armor piercing arrows.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Longbow are a hybrid group, the Wardens are Mutant or Science.
I view Wyvern as more Natural than Tech, since the only high-tech stuff they have is the jetpacks, and not all of them have those. |
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