TF Toon: Softcapped Bane vs. Fire/SR Brute
By
black_barrier,
Posted on: 2009-12-02 07:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
Just an opinion thread.
If you had all the money in the world, would you softcap a bane spider or a fire/sr brute for the purpose of running content; more specifically ITFs, and LGTFs. |
I'd go with the brute myself because I don't care for banes and prefer crabs. In particular a bane in an ITF is subject to cascading defense failure due to the lack of debuff resistance that the SR brute has.
Now built right the bane does do more for the team, but you are certainly going to die a lot more.
Too many alts to list.
Fire/SR Brute. The Bane is a good/fun build but I find the attacks slow and cumbersome compared to Fire.
I have one at 50 (softcapped without weave) and it's a devastating combination. I mainly team with him or run my Possessed Scientist map, so I didn't build for +recharge to solo AVs. My goal was to hit the softcap without weave and then pile on the HP/Regen. I'll PM you my build if you want to take a peak.
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I have a Bane soft-capped to melee/range (and close on area) with quite a bit of +rchg too (Hasten about 5 seconds from being perma) and he's become my main villain for running TF/SF/raid content - I love the heavy-hitting attacks (CRUNCH!) and the -res debuffs are really handy too (I have Surveillance + Venom Grenade + the Achilles Heel proc in Poisonous Ray). I only dumped around 1.5bill inf into his Bane build (and a similar amount into his Crab - admittedly that was a few issues ago) and honestly I have more fun playing him than I do my Night Widow (and I spent 2.5bill on just her Widow build, and planning to do same for her Fort build eventually), because while I know she does more dps, in practice they're both high damage characters and the Bane's debuffs/buffs feel like they help a team more than the Widow's buffs. But they're both lots of fun and have edged out my Fire/Rad Corruptor as my main go-to villain for TFs/SFs/Raids.|
Originally Posted by black_barrier
Just an opinion thread.
If you had all the money in the world, would you softcap a bane spider or a fire/sr brute for the purpose of running content; more specifically ITFs, and LGTFs. |
I have played Fire Melee and Super Reflexes to L50 on separate Brutes and they're fun sets, but if you can only spend tons of inf on one character then personally I'd only be inclined to go for the Fire/SR if you wanted to solo AVs/Pylons on the side as well (though admittedly the Bane can do that too, it just takes longer).
I guess it really comes down to whether you want impressive burst damage with stealth and to be able to assist the team with buffs/debuffs (i.e. a Bane) or whether you want better single target damage over time and arguably better survivability (because of defence debuff resistance on the Fire/SR - though my Bane certainly doesn't feel any weaker than my Widow or my /SR Brute in most situations). On area damage they should be somewhat level... ish - Fire Sword Circle is awesome as a PBAE, but Venom Grenade followed by Crowd Control is even more nasty to enemies in your front 180 degree arc and you could fit in an AE from your patron as well on both (though on my Bane I sadly had to drop the ranged Mace targeted AE attack as I wanted to fit in Aid Self for AV/Pylon/RWZ-challenge soloing).
Cool, this means I won't rip apart my Fire/SR (already softcapped) and just get to working on my bane's softcap build.
TY guys.
I would probably go for the bane. I have a softcapped SR brute and she just isn't anywhere near as fun as I imagined. SR never did wow me on a brute. If you want to go the defense route, maybe roll a Fire/Shield and have more fun killing at a much faster speed. Sure, it is trickier to get softcapped, but it is so much more rewarding when you do. Now that my /SD brute is capped and TF ready, I just don't know if I can go back to the /SR. This is just my experience and opinion of course.
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I'd go with the Bane. Team Buffs are crucial, and you will actually out DPS the Brute in every situation. Your pets, team buffs, and debuffs will be much better against AVs, and Crowd Control is far better than FSC.
Pretty much the Bane wins in single target damage, aoe damage, buffs, debuffs, but it can be hit harder by -def than SR. The Brute will be tougher, as soft capped SR with 95% ddr makes the game trivial.
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The above is pretty misleading. I highly doubt a Bane could out DPS a FM Brute in ST melee. Not to mention CC is a cone, while FSC is a PBAoE (I do know CC hits harder but I think you're forgettig about Fury). I'd like to see your DPS chains that conclude what you've typed. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
I'd go with the Bane. Team Buffs are crucial, and you will actually out DPS the Brute in every situation. Your pets, team buffs, and debuffs will be much better against AVs, and Crowd Control is far better than FSC.
Pretty much the Bane wins in single target damage, aoe damage, buffs, debuffs, but it can be hit harder by -def than SR. The Brute will be tougher, as soft capped SR with 95% ddr makes the game trivial. |
Then add to the fact the majority of damage from a Bane's attacks consist of Smashing Damage which is resisted by the enemies in the ITF and LGTF. Fire Melee consists of some lethal damage but the majority is Fire which is one of the least resisted damage types by both enemies in ITF/LGTF.
Lastly, 95% DDR makes the SR Brute a superior choice on the ITF over any Bane.
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My kneejerk reaction would be to go with a tricked out Fire/SR. Fire is a GREAT melee set, nice damage, good aoe, and a damage type that isn't heavly resisted. SR is easy to softcap, can have capped DDR, (importent for ITF's) and is generally god mode when you IO it out.|
Originally Posted by black_barrier
Just an opinion thread.
If you had all the money in the world, would you softcap a bane spider or a fire/sr brute for the purpose of running content; more specifically ITFs, and LGTFs. |
Course, i haven't played a Bane. My spider was a crab. He's all about teambuffs, aoe damage, and pets. Totally different playstyle i'd imagian then your bane.
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Hi barrier
I love my Claws/SR brute. I don't even have her capped yet but she is still just going through content like a buzzsaw. Fire should be doing the same, Buuuuuuut, the bane is going to be better for any kind of team content. Venom grenade and Tactical training maneuvers just make everyone on the team so much more effective.
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Ya, I forgot about all the team buffs.
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Buuuuuuut, the bane is going to be better for any kind of team content. Venom grenade and Tactical training maneuvers just make everyone on the team so much more effective.
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Bane has team buffs, Brute has aggro management. Both are valid and important contributions to a team
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This both will work great in any TF/SF when capped def. They bring equal greatness to them.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Bane has team buffs, Brute has aggro management. Both are valid and important contributions to a team
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If you've already got the softcapped Fire/SR, load up the Bane. They're tons of fun between the buffs, debuffs, and controlled crits.
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Really? Disruptors add about 38 DPS if they just stand there and spam their single target ranged attack. They also have a TAoE and a fast recharging mellee attack to add on top. This ignores stacking Surveilance and Venom Grenade as well. Throw those in and the bane has 50+ DPS without even clicking an attack. Even if a bane only leveraged a paltry 120 DPS from itself, which it far exceeds, it would hang with the some of the best scrapper builds because of the pets.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
The above is pretty misleading. I highly doubt a Bane could out DPS a FM Brute in ST melee. Not to mention CC is a cone, while FSC is a PBAoE (I do know CC hits harder but I think you're forgettig about Fury). I'd like to see your DPS chains that conclude what you've typed.
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A Bane can also leverage -60% resistance to toxic, which makes the 55 additional points of toxic damage really add up, while causing Poison Ray to hit like a truck. All of their Bane melee attacks have a 100% chance to tick for toxic, which adds significantly to their attack values.
I've run optimized chains for both, and it's the pets, buffs, and debuffs that fill in what you think I'm exagerating about.
As for AoE, do I need to compare FSC to CC+Venome Grenade+Mace Beam Blast with the possible addition of Mace Beam Volley, Heavy Burst, and Frag Grenade? That should be a no brainer. Then consider that a Bane brings the entire team -40% resistance to all (-60% toxic), +15% defense to all, +15% to all damage, +15% ToHit, and two pets. A Hypothetical 500 DPS Brute would add less total damage to a team.
Having played both builds, there's no question which toon is a game changer in a team setting. But like I said earlier, the Brute will be insanely tough because of the 95% ddr.
Banes are squishier than SR brutes against Romans because they don't have any DDR, whereas SR has capped DDR. They will do comparable damage against the riffraff that either one could quickly solo, but Banes will contribute FAR more damage for the team against the numerous EB/AVs thanks to the incredible -res debuffing, and provide a solid safety net with TT:M. Assuming the Bane keeps at least Venom and Surveillance perma, ignoring a possible addition of Achilles proc or Shatter Armor, you get to contribute 40% of the entire rest of the team's damage output before you add any of your own damage to the table. Unless your brute represents more than half of the entire team's combined damage output (so the other 7 people would all do less than 20% of your own damage) then the Bane will put more hurt on the hard targets.
If you want an invincible aggromagnet that also burns things to a crisp, go Brute. If you want a heavy-hitting force multiplier that also has solid survivabilty, go Bane.
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Very nicely summarized.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Kumquat
If you want an invincible aggromagnet that also burns things to a crisp, go Brute. If you want a heavy-hitting force multiplier that also has solid survivabilty, go Bane.
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If the question is which toon to make your primary tf runner....as someone that frequently puts TFs together, I would pick your Bane most times over Brute. Im not knocking Brutes as I have more than my share but the Brute is most useful if you dont have another tank and or brute soaking up the aggro....a Bane is useful all the time, in fact if you have another SOA that makes them more useful. Im just saying...pick the Bane for TFs, use the Brute to mass farm content solo.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Kumquat
Assuming the Bane keeps at least Venom and Surveillance perma, ignoring a possible addition of Achilles proc or Shatter Armor, you get to contribute 40% of the entire rest of the team's damage output before you add any of your own damage to the table.
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Shatter Armor and multiple Achille's Heel IOs is where you start approaching the 300 DPS range for Banes... The Brute doesn't come close when optimized.
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Except for the part where you have to keep reaplying your debuffs, thus interrupting your attack chain, thus significantly lowering your DPS.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Shatter Armor and multiple Achille's Heel IOs is where you start approaching the 300 DPS range for Banes... The Brute doesn't come close when optimized.
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Now I'm not saying a Bane isn't a valuable teammate with many nice toys, but saying the Fire/SR Brute doesn't come close is just plain absurd.
The Brute with high defenses and DDR has significantly more survivability than the Bane. Being a powerful damage dealer (both ST and AoE) and having aggro managing capabilities make him also a very valuable teammate. With aggro being properly managed by the Brute, the team doesn't need +15% defense because they won't be getting hit, and when he's one-shotting stuff left and right with full-fury FSC and BoF, the -res debuffs also become irrelevant (except on hard targets).
Both have their pros and cons, saying one doesn't come close to the other is just plain ignorance.
I thought Achille heel doesnt stack from the same caster. Since you(caster) are granting the debuff to the mob not the power itself.
Also the theory 300+ bane relies on pets that you cant control and theres no way to guarantee that you gettin max damage if there happens to be more than one av.
Both are good toons though that can provide differnt things for a team.
Not to mention the crazy redraw from switching from gun to mace to unarmed (Surveillance).
And yeah, the stupid pets are going to kill time trying to immobilize Romulus. They aren't going to optimally DPS him.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Pets never do, which is why on pylon DPS tests, MMs and builds that focus on pet damage, get a large range in their times for each trial due to how random Pets are compared to players.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Not to mention the crazy redraw from switching from gun to mace to unarmed (Surveillance).
And yeah, the stupid pets are going to kill time trying to immobilize Romulus. They aren't going to optimally DPS him. |
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Just an opinion thread.
If you had all the money in the world, would you softcap a bane spider or a fire/sr brute for the purpose of running content; more specifically ITFs, and LGTFs.