Ninja Run
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-13 08:49 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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"pure advantage" is completely subjective in your response. First off hurdle + superjump with base slot is already capped for jump speed and pretty much heigth. Gaining zero benefit there anyways.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Truth is, while everyone technically CAN buy the packs, there's still a fair margin of the playerbase that doesn't or can't spring for the extra stuff. It happens a lot more in newer players, who come in and notice that there's currently $70 worth of packs. In the future this may be a lot higher. One of my annoyances with GW was that new players coming in had to spend like $150 to get the whole game.
Since not everyone buys it, and we're talking real money, the safest bet is to give out non-impacting items like fluffy emotes and costume parts. This is the main draw of the packs. People who just love to make their toons look pretty pay extra to get some cute pieces. But nobody's gaining combat bonuses or being able to solo AVs easier because they have a frilly new dress. Each pack has a power, which is minor impact. They're designed that way so that the pay pack people get a small perk, but nothing that dramatically changes how they get to play the game. SD is cute but pretty much useless in nearly all situations (except to save you some debt if you're already going to die). Mission teleporter saves some time, but not that much. Mystic Fortune is a cool buff, but it's random and minor, and in my experience people usually forget they have it and don't keep people buffed. Body tailor is another costume-related perk which has no in-combat use. And NR is a perk for people who have no travel power, but isn't as good as a real travel power. What you're asking for is to make it be a clear advantage over everyone, whether they have a travel power or not. You're asking for it to stack and allow people with SS to go faster, and SJ to go faster. Right now it's only a pure advantage over people who don't get a travel power at all, and is an alternative to getting a real travel power at the expense of being slower and unslottable. Right now it's not an advantage, but a tradeoff. What you're asking for is for it to just be a pure advantage to anyone and everyone who didn't or can't pay for the pack. And sets a bad precedent. |
It would help SSers a little bit with some obstacles. The kind that really you "can" switch toggles when needed when those arise.
The BIG problem, which is NOTHING of what you say, or seem to be seeing of what i'm saying at ALL is the fact that it should be able to work with combat jumping. Considering the usually more appropriate use of combat jumping. And the minor addition you'd notice in conjunction with, but more-so the annoying of in missions having to CONSTANTLY switch toggles between CJ and NR for really no reason whatsoever.
Travel-wise Cj added to Nr is WOW, going to take you from (with hurdle unslotted) about 60mph to 61mph. OMG YOUR UBER FAST NOW... Rant off.
As mentioned since you can use sj and ss at the same time anyways it really provides such a small advantage at all when considering how it works with any other travel, with cj fairly non-existent.
The ONLY time it provides a true advantage, is pre-14, and in those situations where getting swift + sprint + quickness + ninja run, or hurdle + ninja run when the user decides its fast enough to skip a travel power completely. Which currently has next to NOTHING to do with it actually being used with any other travel power.
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Nono. I meant that, when the person i was quoting, was saying that it shouldn't provide an unfair advantage to someone who doesn't have it. That's false, or else the power would be called "do nothing". I'm not saying unfair, but it should have a defined use that should be worth picking up, giving an advantage yes. "unfair" i'd certainly say its not. The fact will always remain that anyone can purchase it. In the midst of stacking with everything and anything I wouldn't come close to saying its an unfair advantage.| Hence my reacting that way. It sounded like you were saying Ninja Run or any booster power should be better/more powerful than "regular" powers in-game because anyone could buy them. Which... yeah. Don't agree with that. And really, it is an unfair thing to make someone pay on top of their regular monthly fee for more powersets, etc. It isn't fair because "everyone" can buy it. When you put a cost on it like that, it sets a line down. |
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| I do kind of wish Combat Jumping would stack with Ninja Run (I don't have the Martial Arts booster yet, but I do hope to get it), but I can understand the logic. Ninja Run is designed as a travel power, and Combat Jumping doesn't stack with Super Jump already. But that isn't a 100% clear thing, as you can have CJ up with Super Speed, Fly, etc. So hmmmm, not sure what is up with that. How much does Ninja Run cost, endurancewise? The balance point with the other travel powers is that they suck a lot of endurance... if Ninja Run doesn't drain much, that may be why Castle limited it. |
Oh and NR is .46 end/sec and btw is unenhanceable/unslottable.
OH, and PS, WHERE THE HECK is the option to "reply" to a post from someone. I wanted to quote PARTS of his post, not the whole thing, and quick reply is annoying having to go to the bottom of the page and back up to where the original post was to pick the pieces out of it to quote it. GRRR devs you forgot a button!!!!!!!!
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Im going to play devil's advocate here and ask, then, why hasten should NOT be suppressed while traveling based on this logic? (And dont give me the "its a special case" brick-a-brack. I honestly want sound reasoning.)|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
thats because cj and sj are both within the same set. Like you mentioned it works with any other travel power. Its strictly defined. Even working with acrobatics in the same set. They can just as easily set ninja run to stricly defining to work with cj, but no other travel power. |
I understand why CJ and SJ and NR are exclusive powers, but hey, I'd run them all together if I could. The fact that I cant is "meh." The true bonus to NR is that its available at *lvl 4.* That fly and CJ or other cross pool combos can work, well, the inconsistancy kind of erks me.
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All the powers follow the same rule.|
Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
Im going to play devil's advocate here and ask, then, why hasten should NOT be suppressed while traveling based on this logic? (And dont give me the "its a special case" brick-a-brack. I honestly want sound reasoning.)
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CJ - Cannot be stacked with other jump toggles
SJ - Cannot be stacked with other jump toggles
SS - Cannot be stacked with other run toggles
Hover - Cannot be stacked with other fly toggles
Fly - Cannot be stacked with other fly toggles
Group Fly - Cannot be stacked with other fly toggles
All of them can be stacked with Sprint. Powers that do different things, like SS+SJ, can stack because one is a jump toggle and one is a run toggle. They improve different attributes of the character. Similarly, CJ+Hover or SS+Fly or any other combination of different attributes will work.
NR is a jump and run toggle. Therefore, it can't stack with CJ, SJ, or SS. It cannot be stacked with other jump and/or run toggles. Except Sprint, because that works with all toggles.
As for Hasten, it's not a toggle nor does it affect move speed in any way.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I was going to somewhat bring that up. With hasten it can't be singularly used because its a click buff. If it were a toggle that boosted recharge speed that would be different. But there is no way to have a click buff disallow you to use a toggle.|
Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
Im going to play devil's advocate here and ask, then, why hasten should NOT be suppressed while traveling based on this logic? (And dont give me the "its a special case" brick-a-brack. I honestly want sound reasoning.)
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| I understand why CJ and SJ and NR are exclusive powers, but hey, I'd run them all together if I could. The fact that I cant is "meh." The true bonus to NR is that its available at *lvl 4.* That fly and CJ or other cross pool combos can work, well, the inconsistancy kind of erks me. |
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Thanks to both for the quick replies. It is clear. Thank you. IMO, Dispari's logic is better, and insofar as attributes should not stack, I doubt we'll see NR + CJ soon. I do understand Wind's stance that, I guess, he believes NR is a new inherent like sprint that could be used with any travel - especially since the this *could* be counterbalanced my not being slotted, and NR would be the inherent jump toggle to SS's sprint. Add a flight and TP buffs to NR and we may have something. Then we would be paying for true advantages: thats bad. NR still is being treated as a travel power and Dispari's logic seems to be the rule.
(For the record paying for a lvl4 pseudo-travel is a non-issue for me.)
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As is sprint, which boosts both RUN and JUMP. Which is by far the best execution of Ninja Run, as a boosted sprint-type power that you have learned through your training in the Ninja Arts. Which is useable with all other powers.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
All the powers follow the same rule.
CJ - Cannot be stacked with other jump toggles SJ - Cannot be stacked with other jump toggles SS - Cannot be stacked with other run toggles Hover - Cannot be stacked with other fly toggles Fly - Cannot be stacked with other fly toggles Group Fly - Cannot be stacked with other fly toggles All of them can be stacked with Sprint. Powers that do different things, like SS+SJ, can stack because one is a jump toggle and one is a run toggle. They improve different attributes of the character. Similarly, CJ+Hover or SS+Fly or any other combination of different attributes will work. NR is a jump and run toggle. Therefore, it can't stack with CJ, SJ, or SS. It cannot be stacked with other jump and/or run toggles. Except Sprint, because that works with all toggles. As for Hasten, it's not a toggle nor does it affect move speed in any way. |
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Sprint gives +50% run speed, +10% jump height, and +0% jump speed. NR gives +140% run speed, +695% jump height, and +136.95% jump speed. You really think the contributions of these two powers is comparable enough that NR should stack with everything in the way Sprint does?|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
As is sprint, which boosts both RUN and JUMP. Which is by far the best execution of Ninja Run, as a boosted sprint-type power that you have learned through your training in the Ninja Arts. Which is useable with all other powers.
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I don't think NR's "best execution" is as a "sprint-type power" when it gives almost three times the run speed, 65x the jump height, and +136.95% jump speed when Sprint gives none.
Sprint is an exception because its contributions are minimal.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Gotta go with Dispari here. Not to mention that the Devs have specifically stated that that's how it's supposed to work. Oddly enough, if they say that's how it was designed and intended, i usually believe them. i'm funny like that.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Sprint gives +50% run speed, +10% jump height, and +0% jump speed. NR gives +140% run speed, +695% jump height, and +136.95% jump speed. You really think the contributions of these two powers is comparable enough that NR should stack with everything in the way Sprint does?
I don't think NR's "best execution" is as a "sprint-type power" when it gives almost three times the run speed, 65x the jump height, and +136.95% jump speed when Sprint gives none. Sprint is an exception because its contributions are minimal. |
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Gotta go with Dispari here. Not to mention that the Devs have specifically stated that that's how it's supposed to work. Oddly enough, if they say that's how it was designed and intended, i usually believe them. i'm funny like that.
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I'll be honest here, I only read the front page of this thread.
That being said, who else here is going to save their levels to get things other than travel powers now? I mean, think of the changes you could make, the additions you could make, because you won't need to waste power selections on travel powers. I know many will probably get travel powers anyway, but I'm not sure I will.
It needs to be said that this pack has been officially tagged by the modship as the "natural" pack.
Most "natural" concepts that players had have had to grapple with the fact that the only ways to keep up have been to Leap tall buildings in a single bound, run faster than a speeding bullet, fly thorugh the air, or disapear in a flash.
Not a bit of that sounds "natural" by the common definition of " normal human being with no "powers"" some people just ignore that their character is moving beyond human capabilities and use one of the less extreme looking movement powers (Superspeed/Leaping) or, if they're clever and willing to sacrifice a bit, go with slotted out fitness, sprint, and combat jumping.
That was a common "natural" travel option, maybe with quickness or lightning reflexes, (but true naturals would use Willpower or Ninjutsu :P). Unfortunately, they now had three other powers they could'nt get because they took the one power from the Leaping pool they wanted. Sucks for them.
The Martial Arts pack was for natural characters as spelled out in this definition. They got costume parts that were designed for(but could be used differently) "martial artist" type characters, the most straight up from of a "natural" concept, and a power that perfectly solved a problem they always had, namely getting around without a travel power. Instead of having to loose three powers to get one, you can freely pick a pool you actually want or need.
Hell, look at all the descrptions on the websites and ads, what do they always mention? "and best of all, it does'nt take one of your power choices" It was designed for people who DID'NT want to have one of the powers in the game, but either were forced to take one, or jerry rig one out of spare parts and thus cripple themselves for the sake of how they designed their character.
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Its the theme and the feel of the power. Yes its more powerful than sprint, you paid for it. But it feels more combat-ready, not travel-esque.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Sprint gives +50% run speed, +10% jump height, and +0% jump speed. NR gives +140% run speed, +695% jump height, and +136.95% jump speed. You really think the contributions of these two powers is comparable enough that NR should stack with everything in the way Sprint does?
I don't think NR's "best execution" is as a "sprint-type power" when it gives almost three times the run speed, 65x the jump height, and +136.95% jump speed when Sprint gives none. Sprint is an exception because its contributions are minimal. |
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I have to disagree here. To me the Natural definition would have to be closer to "a being with his powers inherent". Whether he was born with them or have to train for them is dependent on concept. For instance, my Natural Tanker is based off a character I had from a tabletop game where he is a big sturdy troll from the fae realm. He could have been Magic origin but I decided that his proficiency with Shield and War Mace were trained abilities. I took SJ as his travel power because I figured it was just his inherent ability to focus his energy and be able to jump that far. What is Natural to him (and other fae) might seem superhuman to others. |
Originally Posted by Premonitions
It needs to be said that this pack has been officially tagged by the modship as the "natural" pack.
Most "natural" concepts that players had have had to grapple with the fact that the only ways to keep up have been to Leap tall buildings in a single bound, run faster than a speeding bullet, fly thorugh the air, or disapear in a flash. Not a bit of that sounds "natural" by the common definition of " normal human being with no "powers"" some people just ignore that their character is moving beyond human capabilities and use one of the less extreme looking movement powers (Superspeed/Leaping) or, if they're clever and willing to sacrifice a bit, go with slotted out fitness, sprint, and combat jumping. |
Another more drastic example would be perhaps an alien that can shoot energy out of his hands. Perhaps his whole race can do such a thing? Or maybe for some strange reason the powers work here on Earth on not his home planet? For him it's not because of Mutations (perfectly normal for his species) or a result of Science experiments, but a normal part of his ability.
I do wish they would have had a broader theme to the Natural Booster Pack, but the extra Martial Arts stuff is neat.
Back on topic, I am really happy that Hurdle and Speed out of the Fitness pool will help with NR. My Dual Blades Brute will likely do this instead of a traditional travel power.
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There is one little problem there. You can't slot level 50 IOs until level 47, so that little bit of information is not very useful throughout the greater part of a hero or villain's career.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
2 level 50 IO's in Fly should be plenty to cap flight speed. My level 50 Defender with 1 flight speed slot in Fly, 1 in Swift and a couple minor set bonuses is over the cap for for flight speed. If i dropped Swift from the build i would still be just slightly below the speed cap.
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Quickness Three-Slotted Swift Three-Slotted Hurdle Three-Slotted Sprint Three-Slotted Ninja Run 70 mph |
If I plan on using NR as my travel power, should I get (and eventually slot) both swift and hurdle?
Also, NR is considered an inherent power, yet is removed during a master TF as if it were a temp. :/
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Not looking at it right now, but my impression was that it was something like .45/sec.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
How much does Ninja Run cost, endurancewise? The balance point with the other travel powers is that they suck a lot of endurance... if Ninja Run doesn't drain much, that may be why Castle limited it.
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somewhere between combat-move powers and travel powers
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Originally Posted by Bkid
If I plan on using NR as my travel power, should I get (and eventually slot) both swift and hurdle?
Also, NR is considered an inherent power, yet is removed during a master TF as if it were a temp. :/ |
I know my SR can hit blue numbers if I pop elude, but that's three-slotted sprint, three-slotted swift, three-slotted quickness, three-slotted hurdle and ninja run in addition to Elude.
and if anyone questions the use of so many powers when I could get superspeed: superspeed suppresses.
so having that much speed without suppression seems a worthy sacrifice for three power selections and eight slot placeable slots
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Once you can use SO's Swift unslotted and Fly with one slot added should hit the speed cap. Most builds can spare one slot.
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Originally Posted by Willowpaw
There is one little problem there. You can't slot level 50 IOs until level 47, so that little bit of information is not very useful throughout the greater part of a hero or villain's career.
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Ninja Run does get Suppressed.|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
I know my SR can hit blue numbers if I pop elude, but that's three-slotted sprint, three-slotted swift, three-slotted quickness, three-slotted hurdle and ninja run in addition to Elude.
and if anyone questions the use of so many powers when I could get superspeed: superspeed suppresses. so having that much speed without suppression seems a worthy sacrifice for three power selections and eight slot placeable slots |
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Once you can use SO's Sprint unslotted and Fly with one slot added should hit the speed cap. Most builds can spare one slot.
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Well would'nt a Fae creature be of "magic" origin anyway, since Fae are magical creatures?|
Originally Posted by Victus75
I have to disagree here. To me the Natural definition would have to be closer to "a being with his powers inherent". Whether he was born with them or have to train for them is dependent on concept. For instance, my Natural Tanker is based off a character I had from a tabletop game where he is a big sturdy troll from the fae realm. He could have been Magic origin but I decided that his proficiency with Shield and War Mace were trained abilities. I took SJ as his travel power because I figured it was just his inherent ability to focus his energy and be able to jump that far. What is Natural to him (and other fae) might seem superhuman to others.
I do wish they would have had a broader theme to the Natural Booster Pack, but the extra Martial Arts stuff is neat. |
and
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Originally Posted by Victus75
Another more drastic example would be perhaps an alien that can shoot energy out of his hands. Perhaps his whole race can do such a thing? Or maybe for some strange reason the powers work here on Earth on not his home planet? For him it's not because of Mutations (perfectly normal for his species) or a result of Science experiments, but a normal part of his ability.
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There's no need to explain Martial Arts, the weapon powersets, or willpower, as they visually explain themselves. Any other power requires explanation from the creator to make them work. The origin system(to me) as it stands works as a sort of trope-tastic shorthand for that. A cursory glance allows you to have a simple understanding of the powers. If I see a person flinging fire, I can go
Mutant: X-men type deal, moving on
Science: Chemical x/green rocks, nuff said
Technological: Cyborg, or he's got some extreme gadgetry(beyond a basic utility belt to me) gotcha
Magic: he's magic, or he knows spells, or has a magic talisman/artifact/thingamabob, seen it before.
Natural:.... whosajiggawhat? hold on, let me ask.
And in the case of something like this, it feels like the origin system is even more arbitrary than it is already, as people can,and do, not really care about the origin choice and just make something up, selecting the origin because they have to.
In any case, in these circumstances, where a character has "real powers" that are natural to them there would'nt be much difference from them, visually speaking, and any other type of hero/villain. How would a character with a Superman type "natural" origin look visually distinct from a mutant, a mage, or someone who was splashed with radioactive ooze?
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Gah! Yes i did. That's what i get for typing a post just before i head out the door.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Ninja Run does get Suppressed.
You meant Swift + Fly, right? |
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I often did that already, Raptor Packs ftw!
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Originally Posted by Bkid
I'll be honest here, I only read the front page of this thread.
That being said, who else here is going to save their levels to get things other than travel powers now? I mean, think of the changes you could make, the additions you could make, because you won't need to waste power selections on travel powers. I know many will probably get travel powers anyway, but I'm not sure I will. |
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There was a time in this game origen ment something, but people complained and bonuses were removed. Now it's an artifact and seems to serve no other purpose than to help role-play relative to the players' notions.
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In any case, in these circumstances, where a character has "real powers" that are natural to them there would'nt be much difference from them, visually speaking, and any other type of hero/villain. How would a character with a Superman type "natural" origin look visually distinct from a mutant, a mage, or someone who was splashed with radioactive ooze? |
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What are you talking about? Origin means, now, more than it ever did: very little. Previously it meant: enhancements, and nothing else. Origin has never provided stat or character bonuses ever. Not in Live, and not in Beta.
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Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
There was a time in this game origen ment something, but people complained and bonuses were removed. Now it's an artifact and seems to serve no other purpose than to help role-play relative to the players' notions.
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Hence my reacting that way. It sounded like you were saying Ninja Run or any booster power should be better/more powerful than "regular" powers in-game because anyone could buy them. Which... yeah. Don't agree with that. And really, it is an unfair thing to make someone pay on top of their regular monthly fee for more powersets, etc. It isn't fair because "everyone" can buy it. When you put a cost on it like that, it sets a line down.
I've come to be okay with the booster packs, as they really only add some costumes and fluff powers (other than the beforementioned body sliders). I'll continue to be okay with it as long as good costume sets keep getting added to the game with the regular updates, otherwise it does cross into the line of being unfair.
I do kind of wish Combat Jumping would stack with Ninja Run (I don't have the Martial Arts booster yet, but I do hope to get it), but I can understand the logic. Ninja Run is designed as a travel power, and Combat Jumping doesn't stack with Super Jump already. But that isn't a 100% clear thing, as you can have CJ up with Super Speed, Fly, etc. So hmmmm, not sure what is up with that. How much does Ninja Run cost, endurancewise? The balance point with the other travel powers is that they suck a lot of endurance... if Ninja Run doesn't drain much, that may be why Castle limited it.
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