Release Names or Tie to Global
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-11-11 12:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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abridged here, so naturally there's some omissions, but:|
Originally Posted by Mask_of_Many
Incidentally, hero names and identities are hardly something that should be seen as unique. Half a dozen Robins, 4 Batmen, 3 Spidermen, literally hundreds of Green Lanterns, and even CoV's Scirocco is noted as being "not the first to wear the mantle." |
Azrael replaces Bruce after his back is broken
Bruce returns
Bruce 'dies', Dick takes his place
Dick becomes Nightwing, Jason Todd takes over
Jason Todd gets bludgeoned, Tim Drake takes over
Peter Parker revealed as 'clone', Ben Reilly takes over
Ben Reilly revealed as real clone and killed, Peter Parker takes over
point is yes there've been multiples of people to use these names, but not at the same time, and I'd hardly count Green Lantern as they've evolved over the years to the point that Green Lantern is a title more so than an actual superhero name, almost akin to calling a cop 'Officer'
even Captain Marvel, probably the most recycled name in comics is rarely if ever used by multiple people at the same time (in the same universe anyway)..mind you my knowledge is rusty but every case I can think of resulted in one of the people with a claim to the name conceding and choosing another
They call me Hadoken 'cuz I'm Down-Right Fierce.
We clearly have very different approaches/experiences from a combat awareness perspective, but as I say I wasn't really trying to make a point, just express how alien that sounded to me.[edit: that was to Sam - forgot it's not adding the reply name in by default]
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I'd pick the one that matched the Name-AT-Level combo of the team leader. My experiences in that other game (not to mention in this game with the punctuation workarounds) tell me I'm not actually going to bump into multiples of the same name terribly often, so the chances of multiples with the same name, level *and* AT are remote. Although personally I'd probably have just taken the couple seconds to check the global anyway, it's just it'd rarely turn out to actually be necessary in that particular scenario.
| Except, how can Cat Girl send you a tell when there are five people called "I M Awesome" on right now? Do you give her your global before she logs out? Does he? And, OK, you remembered the name of your team when you were switching. He's "Team Leader Dude." You run a search for "Team" and get Team Leader Dude@SkullSkull223, Team Leader Dude@I M Weasel, Team Leader Dude@Team Leader Dude and Team Player@JoJo. Who do you send the tell to? |
to add a more complete and relevant response..
there really isnt a shortage of names, the english language is huge in it self, not to mention the many others out there...with the exception of the occasional creative block I'm sure everyone gets, I still have little problem naming chars after playing since a month after launch..
They call me Hadoken 'cuz I'm Down-Right Fierce.
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That's because they're lazy and uncreative. A new system won't make people less lazy or uncreative. It'll actually just allow them to be moreso.|
Originally Posted by Mask_of_Many
And yet, there are two people on Virtue named Impetus (capital i) and lmpetus (lowercase L). That causes conflicts as well.
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It's their own fault they don't care about their name and want to be Impetus anyway. In that scenario, they are the ones bringing inconvenience upon themselves. The new proposed system would bring inconvenience upon EVERYONE.
With the current system, I can do /invite Impetus and get the wrong person, on a pretty low chance. However, that's the fault of the player and not the system. A system that just allows people to have identical names doesn't take into consideration the inconvenience of having to constantly know the global name.
If the new system appeared, I'd be getting conflicts suddenly. And it ALREADY annoys me when I try to invite someone and their L is an i, so if it becomes common that typing /invite Impetus tells me there's more than one result, that would be highly frustrating.
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| I thought the gripe was that the "@global" was ugly hovering over peoples' heads. In chat, leave the global attached or in parentheses. A lot of people do that anyway for global channels, but in reverse. |
Do we really need to break our backs to make the system more complicated and cause local names to be meaningless just to appease people who don't want to bother thinking about names for more than a few seconds? In fact, that even seems counterintuitive to me. Someone wants a specific name so badly that they want to shove aside anyone who has it to allow the to do so. In the process of allowing them to do so, your local name becomes totally irrelevant. What exactly did you accomplish? You gained the name you wanted, but because of the system it no longer even matters what your name is, because everyone has to look at your global.
As far as backward display of local, there's a good reason for that. Like I said before, global name right now is pretty much never necessary. People display their locals while in global chats because your local name right now is far more relevant than your global name. They do it for convenience sake.
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| You don't think it's possible that many, if not most, of the cases of "this name is taken" are simply because the second person thought it was neat and original as well? I know I've never thought "someone else has it, but I deserve it because <insert whaaaambulance>!" It's always been, "Somebody else thought of Silverstar Prime? Huh..." and then I forget about it. |
I'd say you'd have to have a pretty strong feeling of entitlement if you try Impetus, Lmpetus, and 1mpetus and then go complain that you can't have the name. There are literally three other people out there who absolutely insisted on the name and willingly annoyed people everywhere by inserting Ls and 1s, and you still want to have it anyway. I don't know what else you could call it besides entitlement, especially since the argument that follows is "And as such, I think we should change the entire system so I CAN have that name!"
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| Incidentally, hero names and identities are hardly something that should be seen as unique. Half a dozen Robins, 4 Batmen, 3 Spidermen, literally hundreds of Green Lanterns, and even CoV's Scirocco is noted as being "not the first to wear the mantle." |
It makes far less sense for there to be fifteen strangers all named Batman, all working at the same time in Gotham City than anything you just gave as an example.
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| Even in real life, there are dozens of people in the phonebook with the same name. |
If you were granted the opportunity to change your name, would you willingly and intentionally change it to something you know someone in the same city already has?Whew, I'd work through the rest of your post but this is getting long, and I'm feeling a bit peckish.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Just one little thing here... I have, as a concept, intentionally used the same name as another character. The idea was that my Gamma-Girl, an alien with powers, saw the original Gamma Girl on TV when she came to Earth and idolized her. She is now working to be the original heroine's protege'.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Most people don't choose their names, while superheroes tend to.
If you were granted the opportunity to change your name, would you willingly and intentionally change it to something you know someone in the same city already has?Whew, I'd work through the rest of your post but this is getting long, and I'm feeling a bit peckish. |
Sorry for the long posts; I can be a bit long-winded when I type. XD
There are ways around the problems you mentioned, but you may be right in that it would be too big a pain. It was just a thought, anyway. Not a demand.
Maybe, if we're lucky, they'll just add more servers.
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Whether or not conflicts occur often, this is still more complication FOR ME, while giving me exactly nothing that I want or need. As long as the system is presented in this way, I'm not going to be convinced it's a good thing. Perhaps it doesn't bother you, but it's a step down from what we have for absolutely no return, from where I'm looking.|
Originally Posted by Biowraith
I'd pick the one that matched the Name-AT-Level combo of the team leader. My experiences in that other game (not to mention in this game with the punctuation workarounds) tell me I'm not actually going to bump into multiples of the same name terribly often, so the chances of multiples with the same name, level *and* AT are remote. Although personally I'd probably have just taken the couple seconds to check the global anyway, it's just it'd rarely turn out to actually be necessary in that particular scenario.
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Think of it this way - so many people complain that you have to log out all the way out to the log-in screen and retype your password just to switch characters. I DON'T CARE, because it's a trivial amount of effort, yet it was pretty much confirmed we'd be given the option to log out straight to character select. Is it a big thing? No, not really. But it slashes one needless irritation for some people while affecting MY game precisely none.
All these explanations that, well I could just check out his global, or I could just remember his AT and powersets, or just remember his name colour, or remember what his costume looked like, or remember where I can find him and so on and so forth... They do nothing for me. It's fine the way it is now, and I'm going to require substantial convincing before I'll agree to inconvenience myself over THAT.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Batman might not have been the best example. Green Lantern...I'd more compare the "modern" Green Lantern to say, Alan Scott. I think in DC there are three heroes known as The Flash right now (Jay Garrick, Wally West, and the newly revived Barry Allen). Ted Grant and his son both go by the name Wildcat (and are both in the JSA).|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Incidentally, they don't exist in the same places at the same time. Those that are are more of a Supergroup (the Lanterns) or at the very least know eachother and work together. That is outside of short cloning plotlines or alternate dimension stories.
It makes far less sense for there to be fifteen strangers all named Batman, all working at the same time in Gotham City than anything you just gave as an example. Most people don't choose their names, while superheroes tend to. If you were granted the opportunity to change your name, would you willingly and intentionally change it to something you know someone in the same city already has?Whew, I'd work through the rest of your post but this is getting long, and I'm feeling a bit peckish. |
Now, a lot of this is needed to clean up messy DC continuity and the wackiness of multiple Earths. Of course, with Praetoria...
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Another thing about the unique naming system.
Remember, these names are officially registered in the game's lore.
You know that ID card you see when you go to your personal info screen and/or to register the character.
Whammo... that's why you enter your name there.
That's what they put on your license.
They apparently refuse to have registrants with identical identities.
I'm a role-player on Virtue as well.
I can't say I have problems coming up with names due to any names being taken (There are a few that aren't being played and I would like to see them opened up, but whatever!).
Mask_Of_Many,
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I'm going to take this and change it to fit the opposing side (Not to be snide and not to "win" the argument, hehe), just because it's not something that either side can use to trump the other:|
Now, some of you don't like the idea of no longer having a unique name, and that's understandable. You enjoy knowing that nobody else can have what you do. The problem is that it's not a good reason to not implement the system. ... Saying "but it's mine and I don't want to share!" just seems greedy. |
"Now, some of you don't like the idea of keeping unique names, and that's understandable. You would enjoy knowing that you can have any name you want.
The problem is that it's not a good reason to implement the system.
...
Saying "but I want someone else's name because there's no need for it to be unique!" just seems greedy."
I understand you were just trying to make some points for opening up non-unique names, but yeah, while I think some valid points against were missed, I also just think there's at least equal resistance against it as there is want for it. More so, it is my opinion that the unique naming system is a good thing. There is only one true Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, Electric-Knight, Wolverine (And so on) at a time.
Variants can be done with the different costumes... because they'd still be taking that slot of that character name... not a different toon with the same name.
Eh, really, everyone could argue about this back and forth, but those elements boil down to matters of opinion.
The facts seem to be that there is no way to handle chat properly without including the global names. Period.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Just one other note...
DumbPlayer@Hermi4Lyf: This is the fastest way to create a 1 player MMORPG.
Why? because I will ALWAYS have ALL of my chat tabs turned off.
I will never have team chat on. I will never have any global systems on.
(some of you will like this) and I will never ever type ingame. Ever.
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My suggestion has been a simple suffix that is not visible in most situations: basically the same one the use in the genre itself, roman numerals.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Show me ONE way that you can have non-unique names without appending global name everywhere, yet in such a way that it's still clear which player the character belongs to and I'll concede on the spot.
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So the first Black Jackal on the server is just Black Jackal. The next is Black Jackal II, but in most situations, like chat the "II" would not be seen.
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According to you. My OPINION differs. I think it's more than sufficient.|
Originally Posted by Mask_of_Many
Now, some of you don't like the idea of no longer having a unique name, and that's understandable. You enjoy knowing that nobody else can have what you do.
The problem is that it's not a good reason to not implement the system. |
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| Saying "but it's mine and I don't want to share!" just seems greedy. |
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| Trust me, I understand the feeling of having something unique. But it's a petty justification for demanding everyone else play the "name game" for every new alt. I'm a roleplayer, and decent names are hard to come by on Virtue. |
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I think you dug up a post of mine that's like a week old.|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
My suggestion has been a simple suffix that is not visible in most situations: basically the same one the use in the genre itself, roman numerals.
So the first Black Jackal on the server is just Black Jackal. The next is Black Jackal II, but in most situations, like chat the "II" would not be seen. |
To point, when are you going to make these Roman numerals visible? If they're off the majority of the time, then the problem with ambiguity remains. Since you replied to a very old post of mine, I don't know where to look for your suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
Just one other note...
DumbPlayer@Hermi4Lyf: This is the fastest way to create a 1 player MMORPG. Why? because I will ALWAYS have ALL of my chat tabs turned off. I will never have team chat on. I will never have any global systems on. (some of you will like this) and I will never ever type ingame. Ever. |
This just in: Perfect_Pain is half of the playerbase. The other half is ONE other person. Or, all the other people combined only equate to one person. Apparently.
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I see two "Black Jackals" standing next to me. I want to send one of them a chat. Before I can click on one of them, which would be theoretically unambiguous selection, they both run off. How do I type a chat line directed at the correct one?|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
My suggestion has been a simple suffix that is not visible in most situations: basically the same one the use in the genre itself, roman numerals.
So the first Black Jackal on the server is just Black Jackal. The next is Black Jackal II, but in most situations, like chat the "II" would not be seen. |
I see two "Black Jackals" standing next to me. One of *them* wants to send me a tell and does so. If the "II" doesn't show up in chat, how do I know which one it was? If two of them are simultaneously sending tells, how do I know which one is sending which message?
Suppose I only see one "Black Jackal" standing next to me and I get a tell from "Black Jackal." How can I be sure its the one actually standing next to me? How likely is it that someone else might make an error and assume it is, and be wrong?
Ultimately, its impossible to hide extra distinguishing prefixes and suffixes, because in every setting where character names appear, that may be at that moment the only way to identify the desired character. That means whatever is visible must be unique. That's why you can have duplicate character names across servers: its impossible for someone on one server to "see" someone's name that's on a different server. The exception is the global chat system, where people are known by global handle because again, the visible identifier must be unique. If the visible identifier is not unique, its not an identifier. In a system like an MMO, the identifier cannot be "almost always correct." That's bad game design of the first order.
I would have thought this was not necessary to state, but it seems to be. Every character must have a unique identifier in every setting in the game, and that unique identifier must be visible to all other players that can interact with them in that setting. Any attempt to play games with identifiers that breaks this rule is guaranteed to create a problem somewhere as a logical consequence, because this requirement cannot be nullified. Doing so creates circumstances where players cannot uniquely identify each other in a given setting. I would say that as a rule, that is always bad design.
This has nothing to do with player errors: that's irrelevant to whether the design decision is a good one. Saying "players sometimes make mistakes, so its ok for the system to do so as well" would be like saying sometimes players buy the wrong enhancements, so its ok for the game systems to occasionally give them the wrong enhancements.
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Here's something else to consider when thinking about tying identity to name@global. Right now, those two things are on two separate servers. Our entire global chat system was added after the fact, as a welcome addition to the game, but an add-on nonetheless. So you have to think, what would happen if the global server goes down and our identity was tied to it? Would the game be unplayable for the duration? Our global system is delicate at the best of times, and we've seen all sorts of problems and hiccups with it over the years, and many times where it doesn't work for more than an hour at a time after a new Issue release. Even if the idea weren't horribly ugly (which it is, but we can ignore that for now), would you really want that?
The alternative to tying the names together as-is would probably be a redesign of the global system...and really, I'd rather that they continue to work on what they've already been working on. One way or another, a lot of people would probably be very, very unhappy if they did this, even discounting people like myself who would be unhappy over the sheer aesthetics of it.
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So if the tag is invisible how do I tell one Black Jackal from the other 67 Black Jackals online?|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
My suggestion has been a simple suffix that is not visible in most situations: basically the same one the use in the genre itself, roman numerals.
So the first Black Jackal on the server is just Black Jackal. The next is Black Jackal II, but in most situations, like chat the "II" would not be seen. |
Let's say I'm forming a TF and I have 2 spots left. Samuel_Tow joins and asks me to invite his friend Black Jackal. Sam and his friend aren't in the same zone as I am and when I search I find 11 Black Jackal's online. Unfortunately Sam's friend is the 6th person on the list and I have just pissed off 5 other players that accepted invites to the TF that I had to kick because they weren't the guy I wanted to invite.
What a great way to make friends in an MMO.
The current naming system works. I couldn't see them rewriting the system, updating the databases, and pushing back an issue for a QoL suggested that has so many people not liking it.
But then I do get confused every time someone doesn't understand why I can't give them a credit limit quote without having a credit report run.
DriveBy on Pinnacle. Thug/FF Mastermind. Good names are NOT hard to come by 
(FYI I usually play at the lowest graphic settings possible besides screen resolution hence why the outfit looks a bit craptactular)
Okay, before this gets any more out of hand...
I'm not that vehement about a change to the name system. I'm not demanding an overhaul of the system. I just tossed out an idea, and expected constructive feedback. Some people actually pointed out the flaws in implementing such a system, and I appreciate that. (I'm looking at you, Darkfaith.)
I do see that changing it would be a big problem, and have no qualms about keeping the current system.
A few just seem to want to argue... but hey, it's the internet.
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It's not "nonsense" for roleplayers. Freedom is primarily PvPers, and I've seen names like "john23" and "StoneFireTank" over there. Most PvPers, in my experience, don't think about immersion. You may be different, and if so, awesome.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Back to this nonsense, eh? I have had no problems coming up with names on Freedom. Your personal difficulties in picking names are not sufficient cause to change the system for EVERYONE.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I'd say you'd have to have a pretty strong feeling of entitlement if you try Impetus, Lmpetus, and 1mpetus and then go complain that you can't have the name. There are literally three other people out there who absolutely insisted on the name and willingly annoyed people everywhere by inserting Ls and 1s, and you still want to have it anyway. I don't know what else you could call it besides entitlement, especially since the argument that follows is "And as such, I think we should change the entire system so I CAN have that name!"
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Lastly, could we all just calm down and stop with the implied insults and knee-jerk reactions? It's a hypothetical situation, ffs. If the devs aren't talking about it, why get so worked-up over it?
I'm done for the night. Have fun, all.
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I respectfully disagree that that is a good name, on the basis that "real" superheroes don't use CamelCase. |
Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
[IMG redacted]
DriveBy on Pinnacle. Thug/FF Mastermind. Good names are NOT hard to come by (FYI I usually play at the lowest graphic settings possible besides screen resolution hence why the outfit looks a bit craptactular) |
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Roleplayers don't lack imagination and therefore don't have any problems coming up with original names.|
Originally Posted by Mask_of_Many
It's not "nonsense" for roleplayers.
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I've never had any trouble coming up with names on Virtue, and I've never gotten a free rename token when I've transfered alts off of Virtue to make room for new characters.
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Pfft, shows what you know! He's a Villain! So there!|
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
I respectfully disagree that that is a good name, on the basis that "real" superheroes don't use CamelCase.
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Nah its a habit of mine to do words like that, but still, Drive-By and Driveby were both available, thanks to my (albiet odd) case of OCD I capitalized the B in By so there yah have it.
Now I only wish he had a car...
As for other toons, I have a few namesake ones like my Warshade named Stygian Renegade and Gibbering Lunatic (always complaining about being trapped in the sewer and the rats that ate his legs) Good names hard to come by? Nahhh... Give me a ring, tell me yer Architype (mebby Origin too if you think that will help) Powersets and perhaps a screenie of your costume and I'll give you a name that fits and sounds at least remotely cool and unique
I'm a professional, trust me o.O
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I too have had little trouble comming up with (what I concider) good names over the years. Admitedly I'm an EU layer on an EU server, but even when the boards were seperated and we still had these sort of discussions over there, so it's nothing new and still have the same complaints. |
Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
Pfft, shows what you know! He's a Villain! So there!
Nah its a habit of mine to do words like that, but still, Drive-By and Driveby were both available, thanks to my (albiet odd) case of OCD I capitalized the B in By so there yah have it. Now I only wish he had a car... As for other toons, I have a few namesake ones like my Warshade named Stygian Renegade and Gibbering Lunatic (always complaining about being trapped in the sewer and the rats that ate his legs) Good names hard to come by? Nahhh... Give me a ring, tell me yer Architype (mebby Origin too if you think that will help) Powersets and perhaps a screenie of your costume and I'll give you a name that fits and sounds at least remotely cool and unique I'm a professional, trust me o.O |
I can see both sides of the arguement, which is why I offered up a suggestion earlier in the tread which could have kept both sides happy. Sadly it didn't seem to go down too well. Oh well. But when I create a toon I always start with concept, and maybe even a basis for a bio before I even choose an AT or powerset, let alone a name. Usually I get a feel for the name from the concept, then as i choose AT and power sets the name starts to take shape in my head. Some examples of my toons, past and present, are as follows...
1: Tess Trueshot, an extreme range archery sniper
2: Psi Fire, a sci-fi geek who after being kidnaped by a villian named THe Blazing Bolt learns she has pyschic powers, defeats the villian and takes his armoured suit and fire weapons systems and customises them for herself (thus making her technically a dual origin character :-) )
3: Loita & Lina Lethal, genetic clone twins that escaped from a test lab where they were being "matured" and implanted to be the pefect asassins but were seperated during their escape, one ending up in paragon city the other in the rouge isles.
4: Nowucimi Nowudont, a stage magician that discovers he posseses real magic.
5: Perfect Pitch, a mutant girl with vocal chords that cannot be used for human speach, but can be used, among other things, to duplicate any musical instument she has ever heard.
I could carry this list on for ages with my other toons, like Terror Poser Blondi (spider), Dread Visage (WS), Primary Star (PB), Pretty Hate Machine (bots MM), Trouble Seeker, Kid Ego, Sergeant Psyche, Microwave Girl (SG in joke) N'Jahl Stormcaller, A Cold Spell, Aspen Darksfire, Kunoichi Jounin Kai, etc. None of those names were set in stone and some were not even first choice names, but they are names that fit and work perfectly for the character.
Comming up with a name then working everything else to fit the name to me just seems odd to me, especially with how long I usually take making a character. The name is usually the icing on the cake rather than the cake itself for me. The name finishes off the concept, the concept isn't made to fit the name.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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If the name is THAT CRITICAL to someone, they will come up with the name FIRST. So then they can easily check if it's available.
If they don't think of the name until LAST, then it obviously can't be THAT critical to the character, as powers, costume etc came first and thus are "more important". So synonyms etc can and should be used.
Character (Global) would work better, but I still hate the idea of the global being beside the hero name. Having it as a subtitle just seems better in my head, I guess.
In chat, however, Character (Global) would work wonderfully. At least, for those of us who aren't totally against sharing a name with one or two other people.