Paragon & Praetoria - D&D Alignments?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-03 16:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I've been playing D&D since 1983 and have had about 500 discussions just like this one. :-)|
Originally Posted by james_joyce
Really?
Well it sounds like you know more about it than I do - reading through the wikipedia entry again - specifically the definition of the axes rather than the specific combinations - supports what you're saying. That doesn't sit well with me, though - Cole doesn't appear to be self serving. He does appear to be working for the good of his people. He IS oppressing them, but "for their own good." That doesn't seem to fit. Or maybe it means that not everything fits cleanly on the D&D axes.  |
Evil is about the means, not the goal, even in D&D axes. An evil person can have good intent. in fact, that's a common theme in many D&D themed games where a good person slides into villainy because of their good intentions (such as neverwinter nights, for example).
Darth Vader doesn't seem self serving either. He wants to "End this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy". I don't think you can make a case for him being non-villainous.
Cole is pretty much the textbook D&D definition of Lawful Evil.
And yeah, very few things fit cleanly on the D&D axes - thats why I've had about 500 discussions just like this.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/...awful-evil.jpg
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So what's Lawful Evil then?
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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That does describe Tyrant rather well, I think |
Originally Posted by Smurch
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Also:
"Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace."
And:
"In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society."
And:
"I have brought peace, freedom, justice and security to my new empire."
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That does describe Tyrant rather well, I think
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GG, I've been known to beat a few dead horses myself once in a while, but you've gone way beyond molesting said corpse and are now having your way with the dry skeleton.
Oh I really HOPE that someone puts that into their signature. It would make me SO happy.
Sure you do, for the last few days you've been relentlessly violating the "Cole and the Loyalists are totally EEEEEEVIL" horse. Even I'm starting to grow weary of it, and I have a pretty high tolerance for these kinds of things.
I've ridden my own horse in the past few days - and he has nothing to do with Tyrant, as I'm sure Tyrant isn't a horsey person - which is further proof of his evil
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by golden girl
i've ridden my own horse in the past few days
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Kinky!
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Cole seems more pragmatic than utilitarian to me, but perhaps i'm misunderstanding things. It certainly seems that he's bent on protecting the people under his rule as well as possible from the many and powerful threats to their well-being. His policies regarding surveillance and metahumans 'management' make a certain sort of sense in a world largely devastated by metahuman powers run wild. After all, Primal Earth DE can infect and subvert normal humans, while the Praetorian DE are far more dangerous, and Cole's own actions against enemy states clearly show how great a threat uncontrolled superpowers could be to his empire, especially if allowed to operate from within.|
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
Ya know, Joyce, for all the claims you're making that Cole's a utilitarian, and thus potentially a good person, you're using an awful lot of deontological arguments to justify your position.
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i have to admit to being a little puzzled by the social Darwinist elements implied in some of the material. By some accounts it sounds as if people advance within their occupations in Cole's empire by defeating their superiors by any means possible, up to and including murder. Yet by other accounts it sounds more like a meritocracy, where demonstrating superior ability allows you to take your superior's place. The popular version of social Darwinism espouses the former, while the more accurate use of the concept would imply the latter.
The two approaches are also somewhat contradictory as being good at sabotaging, murdering and betraying your way to the top when employed in the transit department doesn't necessarily mean you'll be at all competent at managing traffic flow once you become the general manager. Nor does it bode well for the usefulness of the skillsets of those below you if you delegate the responsibility to them. After all, they're advancing the same way you are.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Yeah, the guy named "Tyrant" is obviously a Good Guy.|
Originally Posted by Westley
Sure you do, for the last few days you've been relentlessly violating the "Cole and the Loyalists are totally EEEEEEVIL" horse. Even I'm starting to grow weary of it, and I have a pretty high tolerance for these kinds of things.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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See the signature Smurch? I never said he was a good guy, I'm just getting tired of GG repeating it over and over and OVER again ad nauseum. So much so that I'm growing tempted to put her on ignore, which I almost never do.
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Then you'll be murdered and replaced, and so on, until the ultimate traffic-flow-expert-ruthless-assaaain rises up to claim the spot.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
The two approaches are also somewhat contradictory as being good at sabotaging, murdering and betraying your way to the top when employed in the transit department doesn't necessarily mean you'll be at all competent at managing traffic flow once you become the general manager.
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If you're not good enough at your job to satisfy those above you, you'll be replaced from above - if you're not skillful enough to keep those below you away, then you'll be replaced from below.
Eventually, someone who meets both requirements will be found, while the process removes those who can only meet one of the requirements.
It's like a job interview and hiring process in RL - only more interactive - instead of just speaking to the people and working out which one has the best qualifications for the job, Tyrant lets them prove they have them - it must save a lot on paperwork.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If, by pragmatism, you are referring to John Dewey's theory of Moral Pragmatism, I disagree. Tyrant is not a man attempting to do something in order to make the situation better. He has quite carefully considered what steps his empire has taken, I think, which is part of the argument for his utilitarian views: his empire is very deliberately structured the way it is.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Cole seems more pragmatic than utilitarian to me, but perhaps i'm misunderstanding things. It certainly seems that he's bent on protecting the people under his rule as well as possible from the many and powerful threats to their well-being. His policies regarding surveillance and metahumans 'management' make a certain sort of sense in a world largely devastated by metahuman powers run wild. After all, Primal Earth DE can infect and subvert normal humans, while the Praetorian DE are far more dangerous, and Cole's own actions against enemy states clearly show how great a threat uncontrolled superpowers could be to his empire, especially if allowed to operate from within.
i have to admit to being a little puzzled by the social Darwinist elements implied in some of the material. By some accounts it sounds as if people advance within their occupations in Cole's empire by defeating their superiors by any means possible, up to and including murder. Yet by other accounts it sounds more like a meritocracy, where demonstrating superior ability allows you to take your superior's place. The popular version of social Darwinism espouses the former, while the more accurate use of the concept would imply the latter. The two approaches are also somewhat contradictory as being good at sabotaging, murdering and betraying your way to the top when employed in the transit department doesn't necessarily mean you'll be at all competent at managing traffic flow once you become the general manager. Nor does it bode well for the usefulness of the skillsets of those below you if you delegate the responsibility to them. After all, they're advancing the same way you are. |
If, however, you simply mean pragmatism as the concept of choosing practicality over principles, then I suppose you are right, but that's a rather consequentialist argument in and of itself, no?
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Well, I think the confusion comes from the fact that I was trying to place him in the D&D alignment system as distinct from any real-world theoretical good-evil framework. I would never argue that Cole was a good person in any real way.|
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
Ya know, Joyce, for all the claims you're making that Cole's a utilitarian, and thus potentially a good person, you're using an awful lot of deontological arguments to justify your position.
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I think Smurch has put me in my place, though. Cole is Lawful Evil.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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Fixed. |
Originally Posted by james_joyce
Cole is awful Evil.
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This is the best example of what voice acting done well should be like...fan-flipping-tastic. I sometimes just sit and turn up my volume so I can listen to that speech. The voice is perfect ^^|
Originally Posted by Smurch
"I must therefore rely on all of you to spread the word of Lord Recluse's vision. A vision of a glorious future, in which man is not encumbered by the desire for truth, peace, or justice. A future where you no longer must obey others. Where you must no longer bow down to those who deem themselves your superiors. A world in which you can finally say "No more!" No longer will you have to listen to those who tell you that you must earn what you wish, that you must work hard to achieve your goals. You will have the strength to take what you desire! ((the crowd cheers)) Through my way--the way of villainy--you can have what you want now. You can leave the weak lying in your wake as you grasp with both hands the glorious future of havoc. The heroes are doomed! ((more applause from the crowd)) Join me now, or you will suffer the same fate that awaits all who defy me. I, Lord Recluse, shall cover this world in darkness! ((crowd cheers until audio feed loops))" |
It's good to be bad.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ditto. Which is a shame, cos GG used to, and still does, come up with a few right gems.|
Originally Posted by Westley
See the signature Smurch? I never said he was a good guy, I'm just getting tired of GG repeating it over and over and OVER again ad nauseum. So much so that I'm growing tempted to put her on ignore, which I almost never do.
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But the whole 'Good vs Evil' and 'Male/Female pronoun' arguements are one she has...done rather nasty things to. And it got old about four threads ago...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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See this is my inherent problem with the 'villians who want to stay villains will have to join Cole' thing.
Most player villains are pretty much regarded as Chaotic Evil within the game, despite what people put in their Bio's the game treats you as a Chaotic Evil kind of person. You're a mercenary or hired thug at best or downright viscious and pure evil at worst. It's a large step to go from 'do whatever the hell you like, you can even beat up Lord Recluse and have his hat...' to 'you are helping someone maintain order through evil means'.
Of course there is large bones of contention with some of the rather...forced..moments such as Hardcase telling you to stop having fun or he'll get all angsty on you because he's more of an anti-hero than a true villain.
You 'reclaim' peoples bionic organs for evils sake...while they're still living most of the time...so a mad scientist can build an unstoppable engine of destruction to show off to her collegues and go 'isn't that awesome ladies, see with just the right equipment you too can create an abomination against nature...of course with our new found friends I'm sure we're going to get a lot of volunteers'.
Of course that doesn't work out and she has to pay you handsomely to stop it but still...and Doc Buzzsaw's arcs are considered the 'lighter stuff' in CoV. At the other end which delves into the realms of almost melodramatic soap opera evil is Westin Phipps...
So it ain't gonna jive with villains coming from the Rogue Isles being told to 'obey Cole' for the 'evilulz' most proper villains would give him the middle finger and go blow up one of his statues while putting the boot in to any Resistance members they can find.
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But isn't that what a gun for hire would do? If it pays well, isn't that all that matters? Like if helping maintain that order makes you rich and powerful, you should be happy to help |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
You're a mercenary or hired thug at best or downright viscious and pure evil at worst. It's a large step to go from 'do whatever the hell you like, you can even beat up Lord Recluse and have his hat...' to 'you are helping someone maintain order through evil means'.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Though the D&D method of alignment has issues, particularly the whole "Chaotic always means disorganized" thing, it's hard to come up with an interpretation of it where Cole isn't at least Lawful Neutral with Evil Tendencies.
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Originally Posted by james_joyce
Well, I think the confusion comes from the fact that I was trying to place him in the D&D alignment system as distinct from any real-world theoretical good-evil framework. I would never argue that Cole was a good person in any real way.
I think Smurch has put me in my place, though. Cole is Lawful Evil. |
@Mindshadow
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As usual, don't care. I've never been a cross-mapper.|
Originally Posted by Westley
What do YOU think?
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
Ask any real-life villain what their intentions are, and 90% of them will truthfully say it's to improve the world. It seems that everyone's goal is peace and stability. The problems come up when the means aren't fully disclosed, or are bat-%*&$ crazy. Religious extremists are a good example of this behavior.
"The road to hell is paved in good intentions."
Oh, and to put this "evil name theory" to rest: Emperor Cole (official title) is doing exactly what Statesman is doing...but the wrong way. That's what earned him the name "Tyrant" (unofficial title) amongst the Resistance and the more heroic of Primal Earth.
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Where is there proof that Tyrant is not an offical title? |
Originally Posted by Gehnen
Oh, and to put this "evil name theory" to rest: Emperor Cole (official title) is doing exactly what Statesman is doing...but the wrong way. That's what earned him the name "Tyrant" (unofficial title) amongst the Resistance and the more heroic of Primal Earth.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Earlier, I meh'ed.
Then, cruising around the intartubes, I came across this: Pop Culture Character Alignment
Crazy.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork