Paragon & Praetoria - D&D Alignments?

And I'm looking at names like Tyrant, Mother Mayhem and Marauder, and thinking these people are maybe a little bit naughty

She has a point there at least guys.

Heh... To be fair, though, those names were assigned when the characters really were evil - they're retconning Praetoria quite a bit, seemingly with the explicit intent of making it more morally ambiguous.

They could have retconned the names too, if they were going to clash with the new version of Praetoria

I can't think of a situation where a name has been retconned, in any medium capable of retconning. Names get pretty attached to characters.

And having said that, they sort of did retcon the names... Emperor Cole, Praetor White.

But point taken.

His public name in Praetoria

Also, as joining his minions is the career path that leads you to being a Villain, and joining the Resistance is the career path that leads to you being a Hero, I think that the morality meter is possibly trying to tell us something about Pratoria too

In that case, I wonder why working for Tyrant will be the career path that moves your morality meter towards evil?

But remember, we're trying to fit the situation with the classical D&D alignments - the devs probably don't have the same thing in mind. Just because your Loyalist character goes from working for one dictator to another, doesn't mean that one, in the classical D&D sense, isn't LN and the other LE/CE. The one still has the best intentions of his subjects in mind while the other doesn't.

Tyrant and the Praetorian government are clearly "evil" in a colloquial sense, but that's not what we're talking about here. That's why I have the Mises quote in my sig - I clearly agree with you in a basic way, as do probably most people here. Cole still fits the LN alignment.

No, things like having mind readers to make sure people can't even think anything against him is crossing the line form neutral to evil.

But that's not what evil is in the D&D alignment system. Evil is about self-serving activities at the expense of others, the accumulation of power for its own sake, etc. Cole, on the other hand, has those mind readers in place because he thinks they're necessary to protect "his" people - clearly not an evil action in the D&D alignment framework.

LN doesn't mean we can't, in the real world, say that someone is evil. They're just not "evil" in the D&D framework.

Arachnos as an organization (and Recluse as a Leader) isn't Lawful. Not in the least.

Remember Lawful != lawful.

Recluse's propaganda speech in Grandville that loops is the very definition of Chaotic Evil:


"I must therefore rely on all of you to spread the word of Lord Recluse's vision. A vision of a glorious future, in which man is not encumbered by the desire for truth, peace, or justice. A future where you no longer must obey others. Where you must no longer bow down to those who deem themselves your superiors. A world in which you can finally say "No more!" No longer will you have to listen to those who tell you that you must earn what you wish, that you must work hard to achieve your goals. You will have the strength to take what you desire! ((the crowd cheers))
Through my way--the way of villainy--you can have what you want now. You can leave the weak lying in your wake as you grasp with both hands the glorious future of havoc. The heroes are doomed! ((more applause from the crowd)) Join me now, or you will suffer the same fate that awaits all who defy me. I, Lord Recluse, shall cover this world in darkness! ((crowd cheers until audio feed loops))"

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

Actually Oppressing others, regardless of Motive, is Evil in D&D. A lack of respect for life and others is Evil on the access. Good is Altruistic in D&D and Cole ain't.

This is my problem with the old alignment system in D&D, no one can seem to understand the Law vs Chaos Axis at all (everyone thinks it has something to do with obeying legal codes, which has little to do with it, per se) and no one can agree on where the good-neutral-evil line is drawn.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

Well, Recluse makes the laws, so he's sort of lawful

A law system doesn't need to be just and fair - it just needs to be a structure that others follow or are forced to follow, no matter how unjust it is.

You know who had a structure that others follow or are forced to follow? I do.

/Implied Godwin

I'm expecting something similar at Tyrant's tower - but maybe not quite so obviously "mine is an evil laugh" as that

Really?

Well it sounds like you know more about it than I do - reading through the wikipedia entry again - specifically the definition of the axes rather than the specific combinations - supports what you're saying.

That doesn't sit well with me, though - Cole doesn't appear to be self serving. He does appear to be working for the good of his people. He IS oppressing them, but "for their own good." That doesn't seem to fit.

Or maybe it means that not everything fits cleanly on the D&D axes.

Which ones? The ones who obey him?

No, so according to Smurch, Arachnos is Chaotic Evil, which fits with the axes descriptions, and just means that the perception that Chaos means lawlessness is false.

The descriptions of combinations is more misleading than inferring the description from the separate components, it seems.

Key words there Joyce, you said them yourself. Or in the words of Darth Vader.. "search your feelings, you KNOW it to be true". Cole is evil.

that's actually how all states are structured - it just depends on what the rules are. Whether the rules are just or not is a separate issue.

The question would be, does Cole believe that by imprisoning/executing those who dissent, he's making the world safer? I'm trying to tease apart someone like The Center from Cole, essentially. One is concerned with accumulation of power for its own sake. The other, as far as we know, accumulates power to help the human species. The Center is clearly LE. Cole I'm having trouble with after Smurch.

That's the wrong kind of law. That's law, not Law. Law, in the alignment sense, refers to a Cosmic Law, a tendancy towards Order and Control, again in the larger, cosmic sense. The axis is Law vs. Chaos not law vs. criminal.

So, a legal system that espoused "might is right" is not Lawful, even if it's the law of the land. It's chaotic, and possibly Evil.

In scientific terms, Equilibrium is Lawful, while Entropy is Chaotic. The negative side of Lawful is it tends to be stagnant and possibly even oppressive. The downside of Chaos is it tends to be unstable and unpredictable.

Everywhere in the Rogue Islands we see people running amok, battles in the streets, Soldiers of Arachnos fighting everything and sometimes even each other, and Recluse perched in the middle of it encouraging the fighting as a way to "weed out the weak" through some survival of the fittest (read the background fluff about Arachnos). That's Chaos, through and through.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.