Buff Trick Arrows!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-10-30 15:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I have to wonder if Flash Arrow could have a Sleep affect added to it. It would serve some of the purposes of adding a Placate without dumping aggro on other teammates. It could also reduce the enemy's alpha if you are pulling as opposed to opening up with AOE.
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None of them have a 35' radius. None of them also have -perception. None of them don't generate agro. And none are marked as irresistible. And the values is 31.25% for Radiation Infection I recall correctly, and -37.5% for Hurricane. I can't see the Devs making Flash Arrow the equivalent of these skills when it doesn't generate agro and has such a massive radius. That's just too powerful, which is why I suggested a 2 second window with a massive debuff to a much smaller radius. Now that I think about it, 2 seconds is probably too low of a duration and 5 seconds, which was suggested earlier, is probably ideal.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Interestingly enough there are three Defender sets (Rad, Storm) that can upkeep -37.5% ToHit (base) or more (Dark Miasma) all the time -- and most of those autohit. There are also two sets that can offer 20%-25% (base) or more DEF all the time (Cold, FF) which isn't resisted. So a brief -30% ToHit would probably still leave this set underpowered.
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I would love it if there were some way to take this idea for an additional massive debuff and make it affect the enemy's next two attacks-- ie it would not have a duration but affect just two attacks and then be stripped away. I don't know if this is possible though.
I'd rather not have something done to this skill that would increase its recharge. I just want the skill to have some benefit for its quick recharge and animation. Either way, here is what I see as being balanced:
- Additional debuff to a smaller radius (10' to 15') of 30%* that lasts 5 seconds or is somehow coded to affect the enemy's next two attacks. The debuff would not be irresistible like the portion that affects the full radius. *(Defender value here.)
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Honestly, the -perception and lack of aggro really don't make any difference to the power's use as a combat debuff. Given that both effects break if you touch the enemies and that you're presumably going to be hitting them with something besides flash arrow next, all that the -per and no aggro really buy you is an extra second or so before your next arrow hits. They shouldn't figure into the power's balance as a debuff.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
None of them have a 35' radius. None of them also have -perception. None of them don't generate agro. And none are marked as irresistible. And the values is 31.25% for Radiation Infection I recall correctly, and -37.5% for Hurricane. I can't see the Devs making Flash Arrow the equivalent of these skills when it doesn't generate agro and has such a massive radius.
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The radius is a fair concern, but consider that it doesn't need to have quite as big a debuff as those other skills, either. If it had, say, a 25% tohit debuff, wouldn't that be a fair trade for covering more area?
I agree about being irresistible, though. The original 60s duration scale 0.5 tohit debuff can stay irresistible, but any shorter duration stronger component should be resistible. *That* would actually make it too strong.
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| I'd rather not have something done to this skill that would increase its recharge. I just want the skill to have some benefit for its quick recharge and animation. |
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Flash arrow is obviously meant to be an alpha power - the no aggro nature and the fact that tohit debuffs are most useful if applied first makes it a natural opener. That, I believe, is why it has such a large radius - before they're aggroed, spawns are often fairly spread out.
Of the other major tohit debuffs for defenders, three of them (RI, fearsome stare, and darkest night) could be used as openers. RI and darkest night are toggles, so you can attempt to herd more mobs into the ongoing effect and can also 'toggle pull' to bunch up the foes. Fearsome stare has an absolutely gigantic cone area of effect. All have mechanisms to deal with the initial spread out nature of spawns. A click debuff like flash arrow can't pull the tricks toggles can, so instead it has a huge area like fearsome stare.
If you make the strong component of flash arrow short duration and low radius, it is no longer a viable tool for opening a fight. Imagine you're on a team with no tank to take alphas, and you fire off flash arrow into a spawn. Now you can wait for your teammates to go in, but by the time they realize you've neutralized the enemies, the debuff is gone. Or, you can follow up flash arrow with more arrows of your own, but then you get your face shot off by the alpha strike from the half of the spawn not covered by the strong portion of the debuff.
A similar situation would happen solo. If you turn up the number of foes to take advantage of all the AoEs in TA, you have the same problem of missing too much of the spawn with flash arrow. Additionally, since you don't have a team to keep them off of you, given how many arrows you need to layer for safety 5 seconds might not be enough time.
Generally, I am of the opinion that powers should not be balanced by making them annoying to use, and that's what a small-radius short-duration version of flash arrow would be.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
give flash arrow the stupid high modifier that the Swat guys get.....
crap forgot no one plays villian side.....nvm.
No offense to anyone but I think for this set to be up to par with the other sets Castle would have to- no, I think it's necessary to actually break the cottage rule to align the set up to the level of the others.
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No, none of the powers would have to be removed and replaced with new powers. Nor would any of the powers have to be changed so drastically that they essentially become new powers.|
Originally Posted by Negate
No offense to anyone but I think for this set to be up to par with the other sets Castle would have to- no, I think it's necessary to actually break the cottage rule to align the set up to the level of the others.
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TA's most basic problems are as follows:
The overall effects of the defensive debuffs are set too low. They would be much closer to ideal if the set provided a heal, similar to other defensive debuff-heavy sets, but for a set without a heal, they're not even close to optimal. The solution to this problem is not to gut one of the powers and replace it with a heal. A moderate increase to the values of the defensive debuffs, the addition of another soft (KU/KB) or light (Sleep) control or a synergistic approach of tacking additional defensive debuffs in different powers (such as adding -ToHit to Disruption) would go a very long way toward alleviating this problem.
The recharge times are inane. I'm through mincing words on this point, the recharge times are just plain stupid. The recharge times on key powers such as Glue and PGA impose unnecessary restrictions on lower level players. Forcing players to withhold the use of powers due to excessive recharge times teaches them not to use those powers, rather than to use them tactically. Then, because they've learned to "save them for when they're really needed", they stop using them altogether, further enhancing the stereotype and stigma of TA being a "bad" defender set. Nothing has to be replaced to fix this, the recharge times just need to be trimmed to make the set more viable in low level play and less reliant on heavy use of +Recharge in higher level play.
The offensive debuffs also have issues. The radius of Acid Arrow is simply too small. It was too small when it went live and with the extension of melee range from 5' to 7', the functionality of that measly 8' radius became even poorer (fewer targets clustering together now because they don't have to move closer to use melee attacks). Disruption Arrow's endurance cost is insanely high for what it does in light of its recharge time and static location, and the fact that, for some inexplicable reason, it's limited to 10 targets (rather than 16, the standard for AoEs). Neither of these powers need to be removed or replaced to make them shine, they simply need to be tweaked. Acid would be much more appreciated with a 12' radius. Reducing the ridiculous endurance cost for Disruption, fixing the target limitation and slightly reducing the recharge time would perk up that power quite nicely.
So no, there will be no need to violate the Cottage Rule if the developers ever get around to fixing TA. Removing even the least of the powers is unnecessary because all of the problems can be addressed within the existing powers and using the existing mechanics. Increased defensive debuff values and/or proliferation of debuffs across more powers, slight changes to the offensive debuff powers (which do NOT alter their existing functions) and reductions to the recharge times to make the set viable across the level spread. Problems fixed, powerset intact.
Well said, all of those issues you just mentioned I agree with and have discussed with others over and over again...but for some reason I keep thinking that the devs haven't fixed the set as of yet due to the work that would go into tweaking most of the powers.
Sometimes out of desperation I feel that it would be easier for them to look at a few powers and start anew...but in all actuality maybe that would actually be more laborious then the first option! Ugh!
EDIT: Even though TA has been discussed time and time again I feel that it's my duty to not even rest until the Set is worked on heh. When I first started playing about 2.5 years ago (6 months of trial accounts lolz) I wanted Stalkers, Doms, TA, MA and Ice melee ported to another AT. Looks like I got half of my wish list checked off ^_^.
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Oh, I agree with you!!! I have a lvl 33 Demon/TA and I feel /TA is very very limited. The defensive power in Poison Gas Arrow is pretty bad. Glue Arrow is the only decent power in the beginning. |
Originally Posted by Luminara
No, none of the powers would have to be removed and replaced with new powers. Nor would any of the powers have to be changed so drastically that they essentially become new powers.
TA's most basic problems are as follows: The overall effects of the defensive debuffs are set too low. They would be much closer to ideal if the set provided a heal, similar to other defensive debuff-heavy sets, but for a set without a heal, they're not even close to optimal. The solution to this problem is not to gut one of the powers and replace it with a heal. A moderate increase to the values of the defensive debuffs, the addition of another soft (KU/KB) or light (Sleep) control or a synergistic approach of tacking additional defensive debuffs in different powers (such as adding -ToHit to Disruption) would go a very long way toward alleviating this problem. The recharge times are inane. I'm through mincing words on this point, the recharge times are just plain stupid. The recharge times on key powers such as Glue and PGA impose unnecessary restrictions on lower level players. Forcing players to withhold the use of powers due to excessive recharge times teaches them not to use those powers, rather than to use them tactically. Then, because they've learned to "save them for when they're really needed", they stop using them altogether, further enhancing the stereotype and stigma of TA being a "bad" defender set. Nothing has to be replaced to fix this, the recharge times just need to be trimmed to make the set more viable in low level play and less reliant on heavy use of +Recharge in higher level play. The offensive debuffs also have issues. The radius of Acid Arrow is simply too small. It was too small when it went live and with the extension of melee range from 5' to 7', the functionality of that measly 8' radius became even poorer (fewer targets clustering together now because they don't have to move closer to use melee attacks). Disruption Arrow's endurance cost is insanely high for what it does in light of its recharge time and static location, and the fact that, for some inexplicable reason, it's limited to 10 targets (rather than 16, the standard for AoEs). Neither of these powers need to be removed or replaced to make them shine, they simply need to be tweaked. Acid would be much more appreciated with a 12' radius. Reducing the ridiculous endurance cost for Disruption, fixing the target limitation and slightly reducing the recharge time would perk up that power quite nicely. So no, there will be no need to violate the Cottage Rule if the developers ever get around to fixing TA. Removing even the least of the powers is unnecessary because all of the problems can be addressed within the existing powers and using the existing mechanics. Increased defensive debuff values and/or proliferation of debuffs across more powers, slight changes to the offensive debuff powers (which do NOT alter their existing functions) and reductions to the recharge times to make the set viable across the level spread. Problems fixed, powerset intact. |
The radius on Acid Arrow is too small. The "splash" graphic makes it look like the radius is large but it is not.
Trick Arrow is set that doesn't excel in anything. Below average defensive, below average debuff and maybe above average controls in Entangling, Glue, Oil and EMP.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Toggles also drop when mezzed. And as for Fearsome Stare, it only has a -18.75% ToHit debuff, which is far below the 31.25 value (25+6.25) and 36.25 (30+6.25) values being tossed around with these suggestions.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Of the other major tohit debuffs for defenders, three of them (RI, fearsome stare, and darkest night) could be used as openers. RI and darkest night are toggles, so you can attempt to herd more mobs into the ongoing effect and can also 'toggle pull' to bunch up the foes. Fearsome stare has an absolutely gigantic cone area of effect. All have mechanisms to deal with the initial spread out nature of spawns. A click debuff like flash arrow can't pull the tricks toggles can, so instead it has a huge area like fearsome stare. |
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
If you make the strong component of flash arrow short duration and low radius, it is no longer a viable tool for opening a fight.
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Let's be realistic here. An agro-less skill that is targeted AoE and has a 35' radius would be flat out overpowered if it had debuff values being tossed around here. What I'm suggesting is making the total debuff granted by Flash Arrow superior to Radiation Infection for 5 seconds and at a 10' to 15' radius (30%+6.25%). The full 35' radius would still have -6.25% and be irresistible. I can't understand how you feel that would be underpowered and ineffective for alphas. On the flip side, how is having a 35' TAoE debuff that is agroless and causes -31.25% ToHit while having a significant portion be irresistible not overpowered?
My view on TA is...
Personally...i love the set...but i would love to see the set get some dev lovin too.
It's been mentioned before that there are powers out there that have a higher debuffing impact than that of many of TA's tricky sticks. And since Dark is one of the main sets that debuff comparisons come from...i'll use some of those...and toss in some stormy goodness.
Disruption Arrow: Dark's Tar Patch is far superior to this power by leaps and bounds. Just like DisArrow, it is a targeted AoE Debuff...but it provides a higher damage resistance debuff of 30% AND tacks on a serious case of -speed to boot! AND its a tier TWO power! DisArrow is a tier 7 power, with only a 20% damage resistance debuff and...well...THAT'S IT! Oh...it has a shorter recharge of 1 minute instead of a minute and a half. And then there's Storm Summoning's Freezing Rain. Compared to DisArrow, this power is ungodly. -Speed out the wazoo (tho not quite the level of Tar Patch), -35% DamRes, -30% Def, possible KD, AND does a wee bit of damage. Oh.. and it's a tier 5 power with the same recharge as DisAr.
To acheive what Tar Patch can manage alone, you'd need to drop DisAr, Glue Arrow, and Acid Arrow down to get similar DamRes debuff and the slow. You'd have to toss in OSA to get the freezing rain match-up. 3 to 4 powers to match what other sets can do in ONE.
If they gave DisAr the same damage resist debuff as either tar patch or freezing rain...I could be satisfied with that. If it tacked on a secondary debuff (-tohit being mentioned a few times for example)...i could be happy with it. Just...SOMETHING...cuz lord knows it needs it. I wouldn't even mind a slightly longer recharge if needs be.
Acid Arrow: Radius...way too small. Even before the extension to melee range, it still never really hit a whole lot at one time. True, if you stacked it with DisAr...you were at a 40% damage resistance debuff and -25% defense...which is only 5% higher and 5% lower respectively for the exact same debuffs you can achieve with just Freezing Rain BY ITSELF...and even then it's only to the few suckers you actually hit with AA with DisAr going.
With the recent changes, AA needs to have its radius widened. Someone mentioned 8'...but i'd go so far as 10'...but that might be a little excessive. The debuffs aren't too bad on this one...but I might add a -regen to it. After all...it's ACID. Acid dissolves, burns, and generally eats away at stuff...and leaves nasty scars. Even a small, but stackable -regen in PGA would be good. ...Which brings me to...
Poison Gas Arrow. Ok...frankly my only real complaint with this one is the sleep component is rather...meh. Rarely ever see more than 3-5 guys out of a 8man spawn ever actually get put to sleep. The damage debuff isn't too bad.
Maybe add a small, but stackable -regen component?
Glue Arrow: For what this power does...it mostly does well. It turns things into slugs (except puppies and carny strongmen...hate those guys). The -recharge is rather weak though.
Flash Arrow: The best use i've found for this is: have stealth? Flash Arrow...invisible to that mob...mostly. The -tohit is <clears throat> me me me meeeee....LLLLAAAAMMMMMEEEEEEE! Hey...maybe there's another argument to add -tohit to DisAr...to stackage with FA.
OSA: You know...All i've really got on this one is recharge is too long and i can't use it enough. The ignition fix was a welcome change and I am SO glad they did that. Now...reduce the recharge so i can melt guys more often.
Ok...that pretty much sums up my major issues with TA.
I'm off to go play my TA/DP defender now. (hey...told you i liked the set....what...with my lvl 50 TA/Archery defender...my thugs/ta mastermind, my earth/ta troller, and my ta/dp 'fender.
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
I like TA, but Luminara described the issue well... I think that would cover it well and cover some of the mass control issues as well.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I'm going to go right to the heart of where I think this set is lacking and how it could be improved with a single power tweak.
Poison Gas Arrow.
Make the sleep just like the one from the new Electric Control set. It's a recurring sleep that lingers in a cloud. Anyone in it or who enters it will fall asleep, and fall back asleep after being awakened by damage as they reinhale the gas.
Now you'd have an early game power that would improve survivability and capability whether it be Defender, Corruptor, Controller or Master Mind.
Please buff Ice Control.
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I kind of feel like most sleeps should do the same, as they're fairly hard to use on a team, except in rare situations.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I'm going to go right to the heart of where I think this set is lacking and how it could be improved with a single power tweak.
Poison Gas Arrow. Make the sleep just like the one from the new Electric Control set. It's a recurring sleep that lingers in a cloud. Anyone in it or who enters it will fall asleep, and fall back asleep after being awakened by damage as they reinhale the gas. Now you'd have an early game power that would improve survivability and capability whether it be Defender, Corruptor, Controller or Master Mind. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Ya, fearsome stare has less -tohit - it makes up for it with the mez - but I was mostly using it as an example of what an 'opener' power needs (in this case, a large area covered).|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Toggles also drop when mezzed. And as for Fearsome Stare, it only has a -18.75% ToHit debuff, which is far below the 31.25 value (25+6.25) and 36.25 (30+6.25) values being tossed around with these suggestions.
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| Radiation Infection has a 15' radius, which is the same as the upper end of my suggestion (10' to 15'). Both of Radiation's debuffs have just a 15' radius. Darkest Night has a much bigger radius, but also is limited to -18.75 ToHit debuff. |
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| Let's be realistic here. An agro-less skill that is targeted AoE and has a 35' radius would be flat out overpowered if it had debuff values being tossed around here. What I'm suggesting is making the total debuff granted by Flash Arrow superior to Radiation Infection for 5 seconds and at a 10' to 15' radius (30%+6.25%). The full 35' radius would still have -6.25% and be irresistible. I can't understand how you feel that would be underpowered and ineffective for alphas. On the flip side, how is having a 35' TAoE debuff that is agroless and causes -31.25% ToHit while having a significant portion be irresistible not overpowered? |
And as to why I feel it'd still be worthless, it's because with a 15 foot radius, you *will* be missing way too much of the foes in a large spawn. It's the same reason why wormhole has problems as a mez - the 15 foot radius means you hit and stun/teleport *half* the spawn, splitting them up and leaving the other half unimpaired. Most big spawns simply start out too spread out for such limited radius tools to mitigate enough damage.
Let's take a look at some other alpha-busting tools. Fearsome stare has an huge 45 degree 70 foot cone. Freezing rain, ice slick, and earthquake can be cast from around a corner. Seeker drones absorb the alpha no matter how spread out the spawn is. Stalagmites and flashfire have 25 foot radii. Terrify has a 90 degree 60 foot cone. EMP arrow, from this very set, has that same 35 foot radius and a huge duration to boot. Even seeds, with its 50 foot 60 degree cone, has no real problems covering a whole spawn. Every single one of these can either hit the entire spawn or has a mechanism to negate the return fire from what they miss.
With a 15 foot inner radius, flash arrow doesn't. It won't hit the whole spawn, and there's no simple way to negate the return fire from the rest. And while other tools like RI have the same problem, at least that ongoing effect lasts long enough to try to group the foes up inside it.
So why do I think it's useless for absorbing an alpha, at least on a team? Let me reiterate. If you fire it off and then immediately follow it up with other debuff arrows to attempt to leverage the short debuff, you get your face shot off by the half of the spawn you missed. If you fire it and then wait for your team to go in, it expires too quickly for them to take advantage of it. In neither case can you really claim to have mitigated the alpha, unless you want to count 'absorbing it all onto your squishy head'.
Solo, it may well work if you aren't turning up the spawn count much (although you'll still miss an annoying percentage of foes). But again, 5 seconds is still an extremely short time in which to significantly pare down your foes, especially since you don't have a team to help with that task. In the heat of combat, 5 seconds is a short time. Really, really short.
Basically, a 15 foot 5 second debuff will mitigate one attack from perhaps half the spawn. That's just not good enough, especially when other sets can do so much better.
I think a wire got crossed somewhere along the way regarding what I was proposing. When I suggested a 25% debuff, I meant that the *total* debuff would be 25% - 6.25% irresistible for 60s as it is now, and 18.75% resistible for 15s. That makes it weaker than RI or hurricane, and only slightly stronger than fearsome stare and darkest night (and without either of those powers' additional effects, or dark's ability to stack them). Considering that dark can completely nullify an entire spawn and keep it that way indefinitely between fearsome stare and darkest night, or how storm can pin a spawn in a corner practically forever, I don't see how this is overpowered (given a recharge increase to 30s).
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Okay. Realistically, you have three powers to help you keep yourself and/or your team alive against multiple enemies, prior to level 32. Flash Arrow, Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Let's be realistic here.
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Realistically, Glue Arrow provides exactly 0% alpha mitigation.
Realistically, the sum total of protection that you can provide, when facing multiple enemies, is what you get from Flash Arrow and PGA, unless you're level 32 and selected EMP Arrow and it's available (not recharging) AND you're willing to use it (because, as i stated in my last post, this set teaches players to avoid using powers due to the excessive recharge times and how they correlate to the rapid pace of combat in this game).
Realistically, OSA doesn't actually offer any assurance of security, safety or protection, it might or might not knock any given enemy down and you might or might not end up with a face full of floor after using it.
So realistically, you're stuck with Flash Arrow and PGA. This is what you use to protect teams, to keep your skin from becoming some critter's new belt, to be a "defender". And this is confirmed by Castle as being the intended way the set should work, with these two powers providing the alpha mitigation.
And realistically, that's not enough. It hasn't been since TA went live years ago, it still isn't today. One or both of the powers needs to be stronger, or the set needs something to stack with one or both of the powers.
Still being realistic, an overwhelmingly enormous debuff which lasts 5s, in this game, is a waste of coding and time because 5s is simply too small a window. It would essentially be no different than what we have now with how PGA works in relation to aggro (exploiting AI limitations or bugs to gain a couple of seconds for someone else to grab aggro after you debuff a spawn), and frankly, that's neither a fix for TA's issues nor an acceptable workaround. Additionally, it would take us right back to the I5/I6 days of spamming Flash Arrow to debuff a spawn, a pointless irritation and ridiculous exercise in futility which should NEVER be inflicted upon us again.
The realistic conclusion is that if the developers designed this set to work this way, with two powers providing the alpha and primary means of mitigation, and it's not working well, then, realistically, they need to improve those powers. Not by dragging the set backward thirteen issues, but by increasing the debuff values on one or both powers, or adding a different mechanic to one or both powers to increase the defensive capability of the set (Confuse, Placate, guaranteed KB/KU, etc.), or tacking a debuff or control in another power to permit stacking with the two primary defensive powers.
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| An agro-less skill that is targeted AoE and has a 35' radius would be flat out overpowered if it had debuff values being tossed around here. What I'm suggesting is making the total debuff granted by Flash Arrow superior to Radiation Infection for 5 seconds and at a 10' to 15' radius (30%+6.25%). The full 35' radius would still have -6.25% and be irresistible. I can't understand how you feel that would be underpowered and ineffective for alphas. |
And a 10-15' radius would only serve to enhance the problems with TA, by restricting how much of a spawn the player could affect. You have two powers to work with most of the time, they both need to affect as much of the spawn as possible, so cutting one of those powers down to such a degree that it could only tag portion of a spawn would certainly qualify as ineffective and underpowered. Again, TA has no +HP buffs, no heals, no +Regen, nothing to assist in recovering from incoming damage, it is solely and utterly reliant on preventing that damage from occurring. That 35' radius on Flash Arrow is critical to ensure that the power does just that, help prevent damage from occurring. Whether it's a 100% ToHit debuff or a 6.25% ToHit debuff, it has to be large in order to enable the power to fulfill it's intended function as one of the two primary mitigation tools in the set.
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| On the flip side, how is having a 35' TAoE debuff that is agroless and causes -31.25% ToHit while having a significant portion be irresistible not overpowered? |
Disclaimer: Personally, I don't support the suggestion for a 30% or higher debuff in Flash Arrow. TA doesn't need a ToHit debuff of that magnitude, nor should we be asking for a clone of Radiation Infection. It does need to be higher, but not overwhelming, otherwise it would render the majority of the other powers in the set pointless and useless.
Short version:
Realistically, TA offers less offensive and defensive debuffs than every other set, including ones that actually get buffs to go along with it.
That is, even if you took the heals and +RES out of dark, or the heals and AM out of rad, or the shields out of cold, they would still be stronger than TA.
As a debuff-only set, TA should be extremely powerful at that. It is not.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Flash Arrow needs to have a 12.5% ToHit Debuff which is both enhanceable AND resistable ... and a 6.25% ToHit Debuff which is both enhanceable AND unresistable. Flash Arrow should also add Confuse to its effects and enhancements with enough Mag and Duration to allow double stacking of Flash Arrow to Confuse Bosses ... expanding the utility of the power when soloing. Note that Confuse is an aggro-less effect.
- Recharge Time: 20s (up from 15s)
- PerceptionRadius -0.9 for 60s PvE only [Non-resistable]
Effect does not stack from same caster - ToHit -6.25% for 60s PvE only [Non-resistable]
Effect does not stack from same caster - ToHit -12.5% for 60s PvE only
Effect does not stack from same caster - +20s Confused (mag 2.5) PvE only
- PerceptionRadius -0.9 for 20s PvP only, Not auto-hit [Non-resistable]
Effect does not stack from same caster - ToHit -6.25% for 20s PvP only, Not auto-hit [Non-resistable]
Effect does not stack from same caster - ToHit -12.5% for 20s PvP only, Not auto-hit
Effect does not stack from same caster - +4s Confused (mag 2.5) If target is a player
Suppressed when Confused, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
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Poison Gas Arrow needs to "borrow" the code set for Static Field in the new Electric Control set so as to create a repeating AoE Sleep effect and have its random chance to FAIL TO SLEEP removed. I would be perfectly happy if a "static fieldy" self-repeating Poison Gas Arrow had a low Mag, but self-stackably long duration so as to produce over time a sufficiently large Mag Stack to sleep Minions, Lieutenants ... and Bosses ... through repeated (and self-stacking) applications of Sleep. In order to GET those repeated self-stacking applications of Sleep to be long enough in duration to affect Lieutenants and Bosses however, will require slotting for Sleep Duration Enhancement(s).
I'm basically thinking that Poison Gas Arrow should be reconfigured as a pseudo-pet, like Disruption Arrow and Glue Arrow, which has a 1 second Activation time and applies a Mag 1 Sleep for 2.5 seconds per Activation.
- Poison Gas Arrow
- Recharge: 30s (reduced from 45s)
- Summon Poison Gas Arrow (-) (PL_StaticObject) at Target
- Resist all (unchanged)
- Poison Gas Arrow (pseudo-pet effect)
- Activate Period: 1s
- +2.5s Sleep (mag 1) PvE only
- DMG(All Types) -31.25% for 5s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster - +1.25s Sleep (mag 1.5) If target is a player
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Held, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Sleep, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Stunned, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Immobilized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Terrorized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive) - DMG(All Types) -31.25% for 5s PvP only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
- Self Destruct (unchanged at 20 sec delay)
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Minor issue, but infuriating and cripples the power rather a bit...
Why oh why can I not slot Flash Arrow for range? I'd like to be able to be able to use it on enemies, you know.. BEFORE I get close enough that they see me...
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
As a debuff-only set, TA should be extremely powerful at that. It is not.
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I suppose you could call Oil Slicks damage as a debuff to fight duration.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Yeah I remember asking for more range when this first came out. I think rather than being able to add range enhancements they could maybe increase the range on it by a few feet.
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Originally Posted by JusticeZero
Minor issue, but infuriating and cripples the power rather a bit...
Why oh why can I not slot Flash Arrow for range? I'd like to be able to be able to use it on enemies, you know.. BEFORE I get close enough that they see me... |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I think after all this time.
With a complete an utter lack of responses, I think we can safely assume this issue is deader than most low level TA defenders.
Its actually not too bad as a controller or MM set and I really think thats the problem.
My Thugs/TA is a monstrosity of destruction, my TA/Arch is usually just dead.
This set really needs a disclaimer, hasten and powerleving to mid 30's required.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
I'd suggest 2 seconds of -30% to a 10'radius, fully resistable, and the regular component affecting the full 35' radius (-6.25% for defenders and still irresistible).
Even if nothing happens to this skill, I still really like it. The fact that the debuff is irresistible makes it pretty potent already, and the targeting geometry is absolutely massive.
Flash arrow is interesting. It has a large radius, and the irresistible debuff is certainly nice for AVs. The problem, though, isn't with AVs - TA's contribution to a team's AV fight is already significant through the large amounts of -resist it can stack. The problem is the total mitigation level TA provides just going spawn to spawn - it's here that the set falls down. EMP arrow is nice, but what are you supposed to do when it's down? TA lacks a useful every-spawn mitigation power. And flash arrow is the logical place to fix that - it already carries an appropriate effect, just too small of one to be useful. Basically what I'm saying is that it's probably OK to add a powerful tohit debuff - the set needs a powerful effect. Here's what I would do, personally:
Increase the recharge time on flash arrow to 30 seconds. Add a resistible scale 1.5 tohit debuff that lasts 15 seconds. Thus, you have a total of a 25% tohit debuff (defender numbers) for 15s and the original 6.25% unresistible debuff for the remaining 45s of the original duration.
The power is still usable for anything anyone was using it for previously - you can even still stealth with it if you grab some recharges, since the -perception lasts for 60s. And now it actually provides some mitigation for those crucial first few seconds of a fight. Keep in mind that even a scale 2.0 tohit debuff (the new scale 1.5 plus the scale 0.5 that was already there) is less than other sets can put out - radiation infection is scale 2.5, hurricane is scale 3, and dark miasma can put out scale 3 between fearsome stare and darkest night, all of which can be permanent effects.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!