Buff Trick Arrows!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-10-30 15:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The Blast/Melee sets with weapons have a 0.05 accuracy boost (except for archery which get 0.155 boost). However in Trick Arrow EA is the only power with an accuracy higher than 1 (it has 1.2) so Trick Arrow does not seem to be getting an accuracy boost (unless we are to assume that for balance reasons it has also been given a match accuracy penalty).
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
By the way, don't all powers with redraw (aka weapon sets) tend to have a small acc mod boost?
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The fact that it isn't functionally broken doesn't make it "fine". The fact that Traps has a power which is almost identical, but has a debuff five times stronger, doesn't make it "fine". The fact that there are Immobilizations in the secondaries, which eclipse the usefulness and value of Entangling by providing damage or stronger debuffs in addition to not being functionally broken, doesn't make it "fine".|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Entangling Arrow: This power is just fine IMO. It's easily able to stack enough to immobilize some of the more annoying AV's (read ones that love to run). It's no web grenade, true.
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| But then the sets with web grenade don't have a plethora of -run speed and -recharge powers either. |
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| By the way, don't all powers with redraw (aka weapon sets) tend to have a small acc mod boost? |
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| Glue Arrow: Say what?! Are you looking at the enhanced values or unenhanced values? You did know this power use to have a 6 second recharge and either 45 second or 1 minute duration when initially on test right? And the devs (possibly correctly) decided that a self stacking -recharge was too strong. Mind you, I'd love to see it's -recharge boosted. I'm not seeing it happening though. |
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| By the way, what is the other -runspeed power in trick arrow that gives -90% to run speed? It's not Oil Slick, that gives -3.20 max run speed but no run speed penelty other then that. Glue does that, plus a base of -90% runspeed. |
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| Poison Gas Arrow: Say what?! Allow it's sleep effect to stack? And how pray tell are you going to do that? Why would you want it to do that? |
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| With a duration that's half the recharge rate, you have to be heavily slotting recharge to get this perma to begin with. You'd then have to have insane +recharge from other sources in order for it to be self stacking to begin with. |
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| But then if your doing that glue arrow doesn't need a stronger -recharge debuff. It's self stacking already. |
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| Acid Arrow: I could aprove of the aoe increase. But why are you asking for a nerf to it's recharge? The devs have stated in the past that it and disruption arrow have lower -resist values because they can stack together. |
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| And I'm not sure, but I think acid arrow can self stack. |
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| Disruption Arrow: Uhm, as far as I know it doesn't have a cap for how many foes it can affect at once. |
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| As for adding -acc to it, erm... probably not. See my suggestion for flash arrow instead. Enemies would either run out of the disruption arrow's effect radius quickly (thus lose the -tohit) or die extremely quickly (thus lose the -tohit). |
Sadly Luminara, if oil slick is the other -runspeed power that was mentioned with -90% runspeed then I did know what I was talking about. I actually looked at it, and glue arrow. Glue Arrow has a base of -90% runspeed and -3.2 max run speed listed for it's debuffs. Meanwhile Oil SLick has a -3.2 max run speed, and knockdown.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Uh oh another thread where M E is arguing without any actual knowledge of what she is talking about...
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Any Immobilize is easily able to overcome AV's Immob protection. They only have boss level protection to Immobilize. Entangling Arrow is easily replaced by a temp power, and the only real downside to doing that is that the temp power will cause you redraw.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
My views on the OP's suggestions:
Entangling Arrow: This power is just fine IMO. It's easily able to stack enough to immobilize some of the more annoying AV's (read ones that love to run). It's no web grenade, true. But then the sets with web grenade don't have a plethora of -run speed and -recharge powers either. By the way, don't all powers with redraw (aka weapon sets) tend to have a small acc mod boost? |
Plethora? "Quality over quantity." TA has an excess of -Speed, having two powers that can cap -Speed on their own against even-con enemies, but it's values for -Recharge, a much more useful debuff, from 3 powers combined is pretty sad compared to any other set with -Recharge powers.
TA has no Accuracy bonus. Entangling Arrow is the only power in the set with increased accuracy. It was given an accuracy bonus and endurance cost reduction as a trade off for it losing it's original -Speed/-Recharge values.
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| Flash Arrow: Ok, this I could almost agree with. It's a rather meh power. It's unresistable -tohit is the only real reason to use it usually. And that's a small amount. Ideally I would rather the -acc get boosted and the -perception be removed. |
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| Glue Arrow: Say what?! Are you looking at the enhanced values or unenhanced values? You did know this power use to have a 6 second recharge and either 45 second or 1 minute duration when initially on test right? And the devs (possibly correctly) decided that a self stacking -recharge was too strong. Mind you, I'd love to see it's -recharge boosted. I'm not seeing it happening though. By the way, what is the other -runspeed power in trick arrow that gives -90% to run speed? It's not Oil Slick, that gives -3.20 max run speed but no run speed penelty other then that. Glue does that, plus a base of -90% runspeed. |
And anyway, what does its (arguably) overpowered beta values have to do with the power now? If the Devs have decided that self-stacking -Recharge is dangerous, then they have a lot of powers left to fix. Or have you not played Traps, Cold, Storm, or Ice Control?
Oil Slick Arrow is the other -90% Runspeed. Yes, it has it. The in-game numbers don't show it, but it has it. It also has -25% Defense, which is also not displayed by the in-game numbers, but the Defense debuff sticky graphic was added recently (I believe Luminara got it added) because it is in fact there. The in-game displays are *sometimes* wrong.
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| Ice Arrow: Yeah, I'd like the debuffs increased. I'm rather doubting it'll happen though. |
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| Poison Gas Arrow: Say what?! Allow it's sleep effect to stack? And how pray tell are you going to do that? |
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| Why would you want it to do that? |
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| With a duration that's half the recharge rate, you have to be heavily slotting recharge to get this perma to begin with. You'd then have to have insane +recharge from other sources in order for it to be self stacking to begin with. |
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| But then if your doing that glue arrow doesn't need a stronger -recharge debuff. It's self stacking already. |
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| Acid Arrow: I could aprove of the aoe increase. But why are you asking for a nerf to it's recharge? |
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| The devs have stated in the past that it and disruption arrow have lower -resist values because they can stack together. |
Know what that means? That means 3 of 4 ATs don't get something intended to be a reason to choosing Trick Arrows over the other sets.
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| And I'm not sure, but I think acid arrow can self stack. |
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| Disruption Arrow: Uhm, as far as I know it doesn't have a cap for how many foes it can affect at once. |
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| As for adding -acc to it, erm... probably not. See my suggestion for flash arrow instead. Enemies would either run out of the disruption arrow's effect radius quickly (thus lose the -tohit) or die extremely quickly (thus lose the -tohit). |
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| Oil Slick Arrow: I don't seem to have the problems you do lighting this. There were problems in the past. It use to refuse to light when street sweeping or in outdoor missions. That hasn't been too much of an issue for a while. Mind you, I'd love the recharge timer to be reduced. That's doubtful to happen though. |
*Grabs a bowl of Kettle Corn*
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OSA has a 90% Slow. Log into the game and actually use the power, rather than right-click on it and read the "real numbers", which have never been correct for this power, and you'll see it in action.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Sadly Luminara, if oil slick is the other -runspeed power that was mentioned with -90% runspeed then I did know what I was talking about. I actually looked at it, and glue arrow. Glue Arrow has a base of -90% runspeed and -3.2 max run speed listed for it's debuffs. Meanwhile Oil SLick has a -3.2 max run speed, and knockdown.
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So not only do you not know what you're talking about, you aren't even paying attention to what your powers are doing when you're using them. As such, you have no place "correcting" Trick, or me, on the attributes for any power in TA, nor are you in any way qualified to argue with anyone about the performance or lack thereof.
Even IF they were correct the slows do little when it comes down to mitigating damage in the high lvl range. Especially when you are dealing with Top Tier baddies like Nem, Malta and Arachnos.
The problem is that although Trick Arrow in aggregate can approach or approximate the debuffing throughput of other powersets, it has to use multiple trick arrows in order to achieve on par performance in combat. That means that Trick Arrow often spends more time animating attacks and more endurance generating those multiple attacks in order to achieve almost on par performance with other powersets.
And even when paying those penalties where the debuffs are slow(er) to combo up for maximum throughput, the advantages are either negligible or inadequate ... at a price of needing to slot more powers for an almost equal effect in throughput as other powersets.
Trick Arrow needs Buffing ... BADLY! 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Flash Arrow wouldn't be half bad if enemies were as crippled by -Perception as players are.
I'd suggested elsewhere that Flash Arrow have a very short -Range component (~3 seconds) to compliment the slows and nets. Not sure I'm totally behind it but it's still not edging into Rad/Cold/Kin/Traps levels of power.
Someone suggested somewhere having the Disruption Arrow beacon be an attackable object with a Taunt aura. That may have been in this thread. I thought that idea was epic.
This is a more sweeping comment, but IMO it may be time to consider giving Defenders Controller mods for mezzes. This was already done for Controllers with run speed. Several of the Defender sets now replace buff/debuffs with controls and they really ought to be at least as good as using them as a Controller is. I don't know about Corruptors or Masterminds, but this would be a big lift for Defenders. I also truly don't believe we have any reason to think this will lead to Defenders out-controlling Controllers because they lack access to enough control powers for that to happen. IMO the old AT mods for Controllers made more sense when Controllers were a lower damage AT and Defenders, particularly the Controller-y ones, could use the lift.
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Trick Arrow's problems aren't huge - it's a bunch of little issues that combine into bigger problems. Funny, that's kinda how the set works, too. Trick Arrow can get almost competitive when you total up all the debuffs, but the problem is the *time* it takes to get all those debuffs out there. You may only get a few seconds of actual debuff stacking because the first ones are expiring as you're firing off the last ones. On large, capable teams, most spawns are smoked before you can get all your debuffs laid down. Solo, by the time you get them all out there *you* might get smoked.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
The problem is that although Trick Arrow in aggregate can approach or approximate the debuffing throughput of other powersets, it has to use multiple trick arrows in order to achieve on par performance in combat. That means that Trick Arrow often spends more time animating attacks and more endurance generating those multiple attacks in order to achieve almost on par performance with other powersets.
And even when paying those penalties where the debuffs are slow(er) to combo up for maximum throughput, the advantages are either negligible or inadequate ... at a price of needing to slot more powers for an almost equal effect in throughput as other powersets. |
Mind, I'm not commenting upon the total effectiveness of TA - lots of people with far better research and numbers have weighed in here.
What if TA were able to fire two or three powers simultaneously? Imagine hitting a Lt. with Ice to hold him and Glue to debuff his friends with the first shot, or locking down a boss with Ice+EMP. How useful would it be to lay down OSA and DIsrupt together?
It'd be interesting to see how this could be implemented. Would it be a separate power that replaces something else? Maybe attach it to Flash Arrow - Click on FA, then on one or two other targeted TA powers, then click FA again and all three fire together.
ANyway, I'm sure there are lots of pratfalls I'm not thinking of, and as usual coding it would probably require a complete rewrite of the entire set, but hey, it's just an idea.
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To some extent this is a fundamental problem with the set itself. Since it's a debuff only you you get no benefit UNTIL you start dropping the debuffs after combat has started. The other sets all have at least some ability to initiate combat with some benefits already in place.
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Originally Posted by Tyrrano
Trick Arrow's problems aren't huge - it's a bunch of little issues that combine into bigger problems. Funny, that's kinda how the set works, too. Trick Arrow can get almost competitive when you total up all the debuffs, but the problem is the *time* it takes to get all those debuffs out there. You may only get a few seconds of actual debuff stacking because the first ones are expiring as you're firing off the last ones. On large, capable teams, most spawns are smoked before you can get all your debuffs laid down. Solo, by the time you get them all out there *you* might get smoked.
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100% agree with this.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
The problem is that although Trick Arrow in aggregate can approach or approximate the debuffing throughput of other powersets, it has to use multiple trick arrows in order to achieve on par performance in combat. That means that Trick Arrow often spends more time animating attacks and more endurance generating those multiple attacks in order to achieve almost on par performance with other powersets.
And even when paying those penalties where the debuffs are slow(er) to combo up for maximum throughput, the advantages are either negligible or inadequate ... at a price of needing to slot more powers for an almost equal effect in throughput as other powersets. Trick Arrow needs Buffing ... BADLY! |
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
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Originally Posted by Tyrrano
What if TA were able to fire two or three powers simultaneously? Imagine hitting a Lt. with Ice to hold him and Glue to debuff his friends with the first shot, or locking down a boss with Ice+EMP. How useful would it be to lay down OSA and DIsrupt together?
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I'd actually really like this. I also think it's doable.
Here's one technical approach: You could change some (maybe not all) of the TA arrows into toggles like the Dual Pistols ammos that have a very quick "loading arrow" animation. Then you have a "Payload Arrow" power (or, better, change Entangling Arrow) that has stats that turn on or off like DP does. When you fire the "Payload Arrow" it releases all of the "loaded" arrows at once. Firing the arrow would also cancel the toggles, so you have to reload for the next shot. Animation times could be normalized to prevent it from becoming too hard to shoot in battle. You could even make it so certain arrow combos create desired effects. For example, Flash Arrow + Oil Slick = an auto-lighting slick.
Yes I know "cottage rules" and all that. But a man has to have dreams.
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This would also be a way around the oil slick bug. Auto-flaming versus "will not flame" oil slicks so the player can get the effect he or she wants. For the latter, it would not be allowed to be lit by the effects of other player's powers.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
You could even make it so certain arrow combos create desired effects. For example, Flash Arrow + Oil Slick = an auto-lighting slick.
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"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
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You guys still take a lot of what I say then add to it. Your putting things in there that don't exist. You have an opinion generated from what you read that is not actually what is in reality.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Besides the fact that you should realize "not for me" does not necessarily represent the playerbase as a whole and you shouldn't be considering balance issues like this...
You also said that no team anywhere needs a Defender ever, and you'd be happy to run an STF with no support whatsoever. To that I point up to the above paragraph about "not everyone." So a Defender who stands at the entrance and picks his nose in every mission still wouldn't be underperforming to you. Because it's impossible to underperform "not even necessary or needed at all in the first place." You're saying TA doesn't underperform, while at the same time saying nobody needs Defenders anyway. So their performance level is completely irrelevant in your argument. If you already play at a level where no degree of support whatsoever is EVER necessary, then the amount of support given by ANY character is completely irrelevant. You saying it doesn't underperform means nothing, since your expected performance level is already zero. Unless the Defender ran around aggroing enemies while running Group Fly or something, no player according to you could ever underperform. |
This is why I got I bored with this thread.
In future if TA is balanced (fixed) I may as well just come by and just tell people to learn to play.
As for a defender at a mission door say picking their nose, they'll be underperforming, not the set. It's irrelevent. I treat all defenders equally, I'll utilize what they have to offer. I have all buff/debuff sets too. Sometimes I could be wishing I was off my Rad and on my TA. It's all swings and roundabouts.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
*Holds the Gun to his Head*
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Well see, you're approaching things as a "player performance" issue. We're approaching it from a "powerset performance" issue.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
You guys still take a lot of what I say then add to it. Your putting things in there that don't exist. You have an opinion generated from what you read that is not actually what is in reality.
This is why I got I bored with this thread. In future if TA is balanced (fixed) I may as well just come by and just tell people to learn to play. As for a defender at a mission door say picking their nose, they'll be underperforming, not the set. It's irrelevent. I treat all defenders equally, I'll utilize what they have to offer. I have all buff/debuff sets too. Sometimes I could be wishing I was off my Rad and on my TA. It's all swings and roundabouts. |
We can't really affect player performance since there's too many to try and "normalize" and there's just way too many variables.
What we can try to fix is powerset performance. We can get the numbers tweaked here and there so it doesn't come down to player skill to bring TA's powerset performance up to other sets' performance.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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From a powerset performance perspective I would have to have all of the TAs powers used over the years to form an opinion - which I have. I don't know how many other TAs have every power in the TA set but I will say and agree that with the general team dynamics that I see in game, that I get the picture (that other TAs may also see from other servers see and limitations that lie within) that other sets do well or better with less powers than TA does but I will say for sure once again that, there are times in teams that I think I am on the wrong defender (it's by how people around me play) and sometimes its the TA I wish I was on. Different defenders, different dynamics.|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Well see, you're approaching things as a "player performance" issue. We're approaching it from a "powerset performance" issue.
We can't really affect player performance since there's too many to try and "normalize" and there's just way too many variables. What we can try to fix is powerset performance. We can get the numbers tweaked here and there so it doesn't come down to player skill to bring TA's powerset performance up to other sets' performance. |
Performance has to based on not on how we are doing individually but how we are doing as a whole. When you have pug teams killing the anchor asap (which TA doesn't have to be worried about) I guess it has to be counted. What ever is the rule on one server or one supergroup may not be on another. When I came to the game I had to learn my powersets and I had to learn to play within the realms of how other powersets can support. TA came along and nothing changed with my outlook.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Bolded relevant portion.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
From a powerset performance perspective I would have to have all of the TAs powers used over the years to form an opinion - which I have. I don't know how many other TAs have every power in the TA set but I will say and agree that with the general team dynamics that I see in game, that I get the picture (that other TAs may also see from other servers see and limitations that lie within) that other sets do well or better with less powers than TA does but I will say for sure once again that, there are times in teams that I think I am on the wrong defender (it's by how people around me play) and sometimes its the TA I wish I was on. Different defenders, different dynamics.
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It's that portion that's in question here. Everything else you mentioned about how sometimes you want to play other sets? That's kinda irrelevant because it's personal preference. That's something we can't do anything about.
I can't make you want to play TA all the time. It's just something only you can do and it applies to everyone. So it's pretty much a moot point. There's no reason to discuss it because there's nothing anyone but you can do about it.
BUT we can make it so that TA performs on an equal footing to those other powers. Again, this is the reason for this thread.
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| Performance has to based on not on how we are doing individually but how we are doing as a whole. When you have pug teams killing the anchor asap (which TA doesn't have to be worried about) I guess it has to be counted. What ever is the rule on one server or one supergroup may not be on another. When I came to the game I had to learn my powersets and I had to learn to play within the realms of how other powersets can support. TA came along and nothing changed with my outlook. |
So you had to learn how to play with/as TA? So did everyone else. That's kinda par for the course for any powerset.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Bolded relevant portion.
It's that portion that's in question here. Everything else you mentioned about how sometimes you want to play other sets? That's kinda irrelevant because it's personal preference. That's something we can't do anything about. I can't make you want to play TA all the time. It's just something only you can do and it applies to everyone. So it's pretty much a moot point. There's no reason to discuss it because there's nothing anyone but you can do about it. BUT we can make it so that TA performs on an equal footing to those other powers. Again, this is the reason for this thread. And... this is all completely subjective and does not deal with the underlying issue that you even agree with: TA is underperforming. So you had to learn how to play with/as TA? So did everyone else. That's kinda par for the course for any powerset. |
I didn't like to say that TA needed tweaks without extolling it's good points. At the very start of this thread I said that the set needed some tweaking. Then I extol some of its good points and people raise an issue... I disagree with reports that are totally negative without any positives where reasonable because it paints a biased picture to outsiders. Upon extolling its good points I get problems. I think the dead horse has been dragged far enough.
My saying that I sometimes wish I would rather be on a TA is down to the team probably performing better with a TA. That's not irrelevent that's extolling TA amongst the negativity of all the over fixes. Over fixes are over the top fixes suggested.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Ow. My head hurts for all the wrong reasons. Reading is not harmless. Words in certain patterns can hurt you. Or maybe it was the desk impact. Moving on.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I didn't like to say that TA needed tweaks without extolling it's good points. At the very start of this thread I said that the set needed some tweaking. Then I extol some of its good points and people raise an issue... I disagree with reports that are totally negative without any positives where reasonable because it paints a biased picture to outsiders. Upon extolling its good points I get problems. I think the dead horse has been dragged far enough.
My saying that I sometimes wish I would rather be on a TA is down to the team probably performing better with a TA. That's not irrelevent that's extolling TA amongst the negativity of all the over fixes. Over fixes are over the top fixes suggested. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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You didn't "extol some of its good points", you attempted to blame the players for the powerset's failings by suggesting that the deficiencies and problems experienced were a result of skipping powers (powers which don't actually fix or alleviate the issues raised, no less) and insisted that TA was just dandy because you don't need anything from any defender when you're playing your tank (?!).|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I didn't like to say that TA needed tweaks without extolling it's good points. At the very start of this thread I said that the set needed some tweaking. Then I extol some of its good points and people raise an issue...
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And now you're trying to defend this gibbering, rambling mess of a position by telling us that it's all about how you "feel", and that you're just bringing positivity to the thread to counter the discussion about the problems with TA, which exists for the purpose of bringing the issues to the developers' attention and gathering support in order to get that attention.
Nothing that you've brought to this discussion has had any relevance or meaning in regard to the subject at hand, and we're the ones who "are out of context" and "problems"?
Psycho much?
From a power set point of view, Trick Arrow is extremely lacking. It is handily bested in the debuff department by most sets who also have buffs. No other set matches the damage that TA can do, if you can the friggin slick to light consistently. That is all TA has over other set.
Now that defenders have traps, you can see how glaringly weak TA is. Traps has more reliable -res with a -def component. Traps has a godly -regen (even if only for 10seconds) and it gets it stoopidly early the only -regen TA gets is rather weak and the very last power. PGT also beats that power in being able to hold people. Seekers do way more -Dam then Poison Gas Arrow with few other perks to boot. Traps gets a nice Def power (which cost no upkeep) and has some nice protection from certain mez. Web-nade is way better then Entangling Arrow. Hell the last 2 powers are total trash in traps and it still runs laps around Trick Arrow. NOTE: The 2nd to last power is not really trash, just my personal belief.
I mean the heal in Dark Miasma is a better debuff then most of the stuff in TA combined and it heals!!! That's not even the premier debuff in that set!!
I love trick arrow. Hell I geeked out when I got to run a TF on libs with luminara!! I have 2 lvl 50 Trick Arrow Trollers, and even a trick arrow MM!!! (The traps MM is sooo much better tho). I still think TA could use some help to make as effective as some of the other sets. Its a fun set, despite being over shadowed by every other set.
Sadly I think the controllers are throwing off the curve for the rest of the ATs. But someone once said it best. If Trick Arrow is only debuffs, then it should be one of the best at it!! Right now its not even in the top 5.
Look forward to responding to you... again, Madam Enigma, when I get off work.