Disappointed

I think that this may come down to the fact that we (as a general, stereotyped populace) don't really look at the faces of game characters except when we're forced to in close-ups. Things like clothing, emblems, weapons, etc. catch the eye far more in a video game, probably more for the simple reason that faces haven't been done acceptably well until recently, and partly because until recently, very few games have had close ups on them.

Anime (and the cartoon and comic forms in general) is generally in the same boat: faces aren't distinctive enough alone to differentiate characters, so other tropes need to be utilised, like funky coloured hair or outfits that become representative of that particular character.

Sidetrack: I wonder if there's been a study done where newborns are deprived of actual human faces, and are instead brought up only seeing drawn faces. Does that affect their development in communication? Sounds a bit unethical for an experiment, but the results would be interesting.

All-in-all, while great graphics are not necessary to tell a good story, graphics are necessary to do so in a video game. "Great" graphics, in the sense that they assist the telling of the story, tends to rely more on style than fidelity. They need to be evocative of a world in order to help draw the audience into that world.

An example is the difference between CoX and CO: CoX's style in more of an abstracted realism, such that we are invited to be reminded that this is a world that is both "unreal"–a place where superheroes roam–and yet "close enough" to real that we can feel comfortable in sympathising with characters; CO on the other hand, has gone with a very much more cartoon-y aesthetic, which I personally do not enjoy, as it distances me from my characters–they become characters in a cartoon instead of characters I want to pretend are real (at least in the sense that we pretend with all fiction). Regardless, the graphics technology is meant to serve its style: CO's cell shading, for example, enhances that cartoon-y-ness, whereas CoX's coming Ultra Mode will enhance that semi-realism that it utilises.

CoX's comic universe, I think, is very much influenced by a number of recent comic illustrators, who have made their images really "pop" off the page with their almost realistic art. If anyone can name a few, that'd be great. CO seems to be influenced more by golden age comics, or perhaps a kind of nouveau golden age style that is actually less detailed than actual golden age comics–which I think was a very strange decision, considering the design aesthetics of its signature characters. It really borders on cereal box comic quality, IMO.

In any case, a game like Half Life 2 utilises its graphics engine to suit its world. The Unreal 3 engine is generally the same: look at the games where that dirty, wet, over-exaggerated look works (Gears of War, for instance), and where it doesn't (soooo many other games)–it is a graphics engine designed with a particular aesthetic in mind.

So tl;dr version: graphics engines should suit the art style. Art style is extremely vital to video games. The art style of CoX is much more grounded in a sensationalised realism than CO. Thus Ultra mode is actually a good fit.

Oh, and faces have been crappy until recently, so gamers tend to not notice them as much as real faces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failsight Oh, and faces have been crappy until recently, so gamers tend to not notice them as much as real faces.

Am I really the only person who likes the old faces and mitten hands?! xD

Heheh I'm neither here nor there on this game's faces (and hands), I meant games in general.

I certainly wouldn't complain about a facial upgrade–we got a number of new faces recently, but I only use one or two of the new ones–but to be honest, I really can't see much gained from adding individual fingers beyond a bit more realism.

Oh, and to a previous post about CO's "emotive" faces...it was a decent idea, with horrible, horrible execution. Most of the faces just look...painful.

The faces don't bother me - I think they're fine (I still prefer many of the old faces over the new ones tbh). The hands, they bother me slightly - not enough to be a major issue, but I would like to see separate fingers, as long as they weren't as freaky as the fingers on most CO avatars I saw during beta (and on my own characters).

Everyone has a personal preference here, but you seem to be attempting to justify that personal preference by implying that yours involves improvements that are either more durable or more likely to appeal to more committed players: i.e. by characterizing the preference for more visually appealing graphics as being either inconsequential to gameplay or by suggesting that most players that express that preference aren't likely to notice it themselves after a while anyway.

You don't seem to be acknowledging that the *reason* why its a "smart marketing decision" to expend resources on a graphical upgrade is because that improvement is better aligned with the personal preferences of the majority of existing and potential customers.

I expect a good MMO team to expend a balance of resources on the visual, game mechanical, story, and content design of the game. I think whenever you decide that one of those is the important one, and the others are non-essential, you set yourself up for eventual failure. The notion that a good story is more important than good graphics is missing the point, in my opinion.

When I visited the Seattle Museum of Glass a few years ago, there was a phrase painted on one of the walls of an exhibit room which I don't remember the precise wording of, but I believe went something like:

Without artistry there is no craft, and without craftsmanship there is no art.

I quoted it once before on these forums to express my opinion on whether the numbers or the gameplay of an MMO were more important. I think its equally applicable here. MMOs are not just a game, they are a gameplay experience. The graphics of the game are just as important to the overall experience as the story text and the combat mechanics. That is a truism separate from individual people's personal preferences and priorities. Individuals can decide that the graphics are unimportant, or all-important. But an MMO dev team must believe they are all (roughly) equally important, unless you're making an MMO that completely dispenses with one of those elements entirely or you are explicitly catering to a narrow target audience with identical preferences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem The faces don't bother me - I think they're fine (I still prefer many of the old faces over the new ones tbh). The hands, they bother me slightly - not enough to be a major issue, but I would like to see separate fingers, as long as they weren't as freaky as the fingers on most CO avatars I saw during beta (and on my own characters).

I honestly think the mitten hands are VERY suitable for CoH's art style. I actually don't like the fingers on VEAT characters in their Arachnos outfits.

And yes, Arcanaville just said what I've been trying to say for long! *sprinkles them with positive rep*

Thank you. You've perfectly summed up what I was just groping for a way to articulate (apart from saying "lot a" when you meant "look at" ).

New players as in the difference from the number of active subscribers and the total amount of owners of a CoH copy. About 800.000.

I do like that phrase. It perfectly sums up why I was indifferent about so much of the modern art I saw the last time I went to the Tate Modern gallery in London - too many vague ideas with zero craftsmanship involved - it just didn't tickle my internal "art detector".

For bonus points it also sounds like something a Jedi would say!

Wrong! I play comfortably on my laptop with only 10fps, 15 if I'm lucky. and it works just fine for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gibbering Loony Wrong! I play comfortably on my laptop with only 10fps, 15 if I'm lucky. and it works just fine for me.

Wooo! Go Intel 945 GMA! xD

actually its a express chipset using intels latest drivers (even though my laptop complains because its not the "offical" one)
the diffrence between the Offical and the latest... Bumpmapping and enhanced water as well as more particles

Not necessarily so: there are probably some number of current subscribers who, with time, will leave this game because the graphics haven't been updated. Thus, updating graphics isn't only about new subscribers, but also to keep current subscribers interested.

However, in order to keep as many current subscribers happy as possible, the Ultra Mode is only built on top of the current engine, such that minimum requirements don't change (at least significantly–hard drive space usage may go up some, though I expect minimally as the same textures are being used, so only some amount of code is being added).

I'm really wondering how "five year veteran" has become equated with "five year old computer." I mean, has nobody upgraded their computer since buying CoH?!

I'll be happy to turn on Ultra Mode! Saying it's not for "us" is simply incorrect. It will provide a refreshed gaming experience for those of us who can use it. Ultra Mode is for everyone...who can use it.

Didn't you know, The universe is programmed in BASIC. XD

Oh, come on now. I read that as a freaking great suggestion
It make life as a rogue/vigilante SO much more interesting...

Arcana, you should know better than that. The human face is something that, absent our brain subsystem for recognising them, varies incredibly little. Face to face to face, the differences are minute. That's why people of one ethnicity often have trouble telling people of another ethnicity apart - our apparatus for distinguishing faces is best at distinguishing faces like ours and that we see every day, not so much faces of a subtly different structure. Telling which face someone is using in this game is outright inpossible at all but the closest range, essentially zooming into first person view and coming close to have a look.

Chest details, by comparison, are both much larger AND much more colourful and contrasting than faces. Let me put it this way - it's much easier to tell one face apart from the other in this game if that face has a large pair of coloured goggles, some kind of vibrant face paint, a large breather, a mask or something of this nature, than it is if it's just another face of a similar skin tone. They simply look too much alike.

Again, in the situations where you get to see your face in enough detail to tell facial animations apart, you don't have the opportunity to MAKE facial expressions. People make facial expressions in the heat of action, which is a bad time to be looking at faces, or in conversation with each other, which as of right now, we can't emulate short of just standing around.

And, as with all the recent suggestions of facial animation, I have to ask - do you honestly see it viable to animate ALL the existing faces, including the monstrous ones, including the mouthless and noseless ones, including the Roswell alien one, without removing any of them and while making it look good? Because I wouldn't turn my nose up at that for a second, believe me. I'd LOVE it. I just don't see it happening, because it isn't that big of a deal for what resources I envision it taking to achieve.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Go to the options and turn off "Always face front".

While you probably expect me to say it, I'll say it anyway: Never has happened, and from how things look, never will happen. I LOVE Oranbega. It's probably the coolest tileset of them all. The only tilesets I actively hate are the tilesets I hated the first time I saw them, which are largely restricted to the pink caves and their derivatives, like the snake caves and the Cimeroran ruins. I disliked them from the first day I set foot in the Shadow Shard for their blandness and tubular design, and I dislike them now for the exact same reason.

You know what the funny thing is? I never stop being impressed. I have, for instance, a few characters I made expressly because of how their costumes looked, and every time I log them into the game, I can't stop giggling like an idiot, thinking "Man, I can't believe this is really happening!" I love these characters, and I can never get enough of them. EVER.

I don't get bored of good graphics. I can look at them day after day after day and the fine details and cool little touches will never stop impressing me. For instance, even to this day I still adore all the care an attention the Necromancy upgrade has put into it. All of those whirling, spinning red thingies, all the little scurrying worms and beetles... I love it!

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This is something I've been saying for years - a game looking good doesn't come down to processing technology and graphics engine muscle, it comes down to a good artist and a good designer at the wheel. All the shiny shaders and high-poly models won't save a game where the art style is ugly and unappeaning, whereas a game with a good art style can get away with relatively poor graphics. That's why things like Oni and the Prince of Persia games still look good even so many years after their graphics became quite old, and Oni had "old" graphics the day it launched.

Anime is a good example, because I've always enjoyed anime, manga and anime-inspired games for their inspired character design and bold style. They don't always succeed, obviously, and I know they're not everyone's cup of team, but I can always respect art styles that "dare to be stupid" and still pull it off. Compared to Western media, cartoons, movies and games that rely more on generic costumes and telling actors apart by face and mannerisms, I'd pick anime every time. This is partly why I HATE the newer approach in Japanese media and games, where art styles become ever more realistic and bland, giving up the flair of of the old unique anime costumes and weapons.

I don't think faces rank very high in terms of what sells a character, unless that character has some kind of specific face-defining feature. A large scar, scary shiny glasses, half-closed eyes or so forth. But in animation as in 3D, it's incredibly hard to make a face that is convincingly different at a distance, and different in a meaningful yet natural way. Our faces are all different when you look at them up close, but at 10 paces, they all fall into one of, like, three categories or so, especially if you have your camera zoomed out a fair bit (I have mine at four wheel-rolls back).

Going back to anime, just about any series you see will have precisely ONE face, with characters differentiated by hairstyle, face accessories and clothes. That's to the point where you couldn't actually tell men from women without aid. Certain animes and mangas break from the traditional style, but even then, all of their faces are still the same, just all in the new style. About the only animes that have faces even remotely unique without aid are the ultra-realistic ones, like Ghost in the Shell 2, and that in itself breaks from anime tradition. I've seen very few more traditional animes where faces weren't interchangeable. Amusingly, the one that does that I can think of offhand is Slap Up Party: Arad Senki, an anime adaptation of the Dungeon Fighter Online game I complained about yesterday. The fighter woman there (which, by the way, I LOVE as a concept and as an execution) has one of the most distinct faces I've seen in anime, at least within the context of the show. Then again, the series takes HUGE liberties with style and proportions, so variety is at least guaranteed. Too bad it sucks...

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failsight Not necessarily so: there are probably some number of current subscribers who, with time, will leave this game because the graphics haven't been updated. Thus, updating graphics isn't only about new subscribers, but also to keep current subscribers interested. However, in order to keep as many current subscribers happy as possible, the Ultra Mode is only built on top of the current engine, such that minimum requirements don't change (at least significantly–hard drive space usage may go up some, though I expect minimally as the same textures are being used, so only some amount of code is being added). I'm really wondering how "five year veteran" has become equated with "five year old computer." I mean, has nobody upgraded their computer since buying CoH?! I'll be happy to turn on Ultra Mode! Saying it's not for "us" is simply incorrect. It will provide a refreshed gaming experience for those of us who can use it. Ultra Mode is for everyone...who can use it.

I'm actually one of those "veterans". If GR wasn't gonna come out with a graphics upgrade, I was planning to drop the ship. I haven't paid so much money on a new computer system to play CoH on it with age-old graphics.

I can't freakin' believe we're even arguing whether or not a graphics upgrade was needed in CoH: GR.

And I really hate how people throw the term "veteran" around so easily. No, just because you have 20 shiny golden badges representing how much money NCSoft has taken from your pockets, it doesn't make it "us" and "them". It doesn't separate you from any crowd. Stop putting yourself and other "veterans" in your magic circle. And by 'you' I'm referring to the person who brought of the original argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _gohan661_ Its not the graphics that make the game its the game that makes the game!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH

"A MUSH (sometimes said to be an abbreviation for Multi-User Shared Hack, Habitat, Holodeck, or Hallucination, though these are backronyms) is a text-based online social medium to which multiple users are connected at the same time."

Notice how they don't call it a game.

Wanna play Awesome CoH on MSN?

(TL/DR)
It seems like your expectations for Going Rogue were made up in your own mind TBH. From the beginning Going Rogue has been publicized as the ability to switch sides/blur the morality line. I haven't been keeping up with it but UltraMode got my attention. Your last paragraph insinuates you want a new CoH, they never promised a full game overhaul of everything from TFs to mission goals to new content 1-50

Hallo. I think what was meant, that there be more content in the version of lots of maps as opposed to endless stories.

And I agree. If the gameplay of missions isn't improved upon, the initial graphics ooh and ahh moment will fade, leaving the same arguments over maps.

Translation: The old maps are predictable and boring, and that's not talking about the tilesets. The maps that are available have been played so often, that people can predict where things will be from only looking at one or two things from the beginning.