Stop wasting my time with nonsense!
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-24 08:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I definately agree with you on this, Samuel. It gets frustrating to have an alt being told he or she HAS to go run to Striga or HAS to go running to KR to chat or HAS to go running to the PvP zone. I would love to send the character to talk with those contacts early just to avoid getting the mission requirement, or, as you suggested, give us the option to avoid them.
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No, the programmers weren't smart enough to give you an option of NOT going to visit these contacts. I don't think that would take much effort... just offer, "You can do a real mission, or go see this contact." Old contacts offer two options on a regular basis, it shouldn't have been hard to do.|
Originally Posted by Mirai
Well, the purpose is to introduce newer players to stuff that they could easily miss. The code's not smart enough to figure out that you've already done those missions with other characters. Who knows how difficult it would be to make the code smarter.
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By making these various "run to see this contact" missions mandatory before you can get an actual mission mission, they failed hard.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And you know what the worst thing is? Because of how many missions the old contacts have, this woman still hasn't given me her phone number, so I'll have to fly back to her on the butt end of nowhere when I'm done with this. And I just KNOW she'll send me on some other pointless waste of time afterwards. Maybe I'll have to talk to the Terra Volta Security Chief, or I'll have to patrol Independence Port, or I'll have to go to the moon ON FOOT.
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Hah!
See Sam, all you had to do to come around to my point of view was go back and play some of the ratty old story arcs.
As I've said, I'm not against travel & sightseeing per se, I'm just against a ton of pointless running around dictated by lazy game design.
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I'm not so sure a lot of it could be called lazy.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Hah!
See Sam, all you had to do to come around to my point of view was go back and play some of the ratty old story arcs. As I've said, I'm not against travel & sightseeing per se, I'm just against a ton of pointless running around dictated by lazy game design. |
I got part of the point of some of the running missions, like visiting the security chiefs, and Sam Wilcott, and Justin over in Faultline. This was the developers way of forcing players to actually go to new zones or new area's, or forcing the players to at least have to view some kind of information about the zone or the threats in the zone.
In many cases, this was brilliant game design.
However, in many ways, the original design was also mis-leading. Old Hollows turned a lot of players off the game because they often thought that they absolutely had to do the Hollows arcs. I've met many a player that expressed confusion when they asked how I got through Hollows, I respond to the effect, I didn't, I went back to the original content.
So yes, there is a lot of writing work that could have been done to clarify the purposes of a run mission.
Now though, with the ease of leveling, perhaps it would be better if some of those runs simply resulted in getting handed a souvenir or clue file with the background information. I can see the Clockworks and trolls running around Skyway. I don't need to go hunt down and arrest 10 of each to know that they are a problem.
You see, everyone, this is why I love Vets and Booster powers.
Filler mission 1: Drop mission.
Filler mission 2: SG Teleporter
Filler mission 3: Pocket D Teleporter
Filler mission 4: Mission Teleporter
Yeah, it's pretty cheap, but it gets the job...s done.
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Yet the redside does this much less often. They only send you to talk to the first two PvP liasons, I don't remember ever getting sent to talk to the one for Warburg and I know you never have to talk with the one for Recluse's Victory. |
Originally Posted by Mirai
Well, the purpose is to introduce newer players to stuff that they could easily miss. The code's not smart enough to figure out that you've already done those missions with other characters. Who knows how difficult it would be to make the code smarter.
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They never send you to talk to the Fateweavers, ever.
There are no zone security chiefs in the Rogue Isles.
Only one time do they send you to talk to a contact in another zone and like with Wilcott that can be avoided by talking to Seer Marino before you leave Mercy Island on your way to Port Oakes.
The only time you have to talk to a Broker before getting papers is the first time you enter a zone with papers, after that it's automatic.
All other times they simply use the "This contact has something for you" pop-up when you reach the appropriate level. Really all "go-talk-to" missions should be replaced with that system instead.
Yes, Posi, please fix up the old busted **** already!
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I would be hesitant to claim anything about anyone's intelligence on this, that is a good way to turn the conversation hostile, i will say that a lot of mmo's at the time this content was introduced had content this tedious and annoying, and back then, it was still bad, but more common for the genre. That said, this thread proves that the devs are darned either way in this case. some people are shouting to revamp the stuff, and some are shouting to just ignore it and add new stuff, no matter what is done, it will start a tantrum from some group.
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Originally Posted by Organica
No, the programmers weren't smart enough to give you an option of NOT going to visit these contacts. I don't think that would take much effort... just offer, "You can do a real mission, or go see this contact." Old contacts offer two options on a regular basis, it shouldn't have been hard to do.
By making these various "run to see this contact" missions mandatory before you can get an actual mission mission, they failed hard. |
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Of course there's a reason they still exist. It's called a budget and a schedule. They have to make hard choices sometimes. When deciding between tweaking old hero contacts so they don't hand out pointless missions to the occasional vet who chooses to give it a try (even though they should know nothing has been changed), over making new missions that everyone can enjoy, the option is kind of a no brainer.| But you know what sucks the most? This doesn't have to be this way! There is NO reason why these clumps of useless wastes of time has to exist. There's no reason why Security chiefs have to be mandatory, no reason why PvP zone visits can't be staggered a little bit, or made optional for veteran players. There's no reason why I need to be ordered to visit contacts before anyone will give me missions again when just adding these contacts to my list would be BETTER. These are not just how things go. They're problems that have no justifiable reason to exist, or exist still, at the very least. It's like not only are they wasting my time, they're wasting my time for absolutely NO reason whatsoever. |
I don't disagree with you that they could be fixed and the experience improved. Do I think that leaving them the way they are is horrible awful no good thing and they're big stupid heads for not doing it? Hell no. Not when I take a few seconds and look at all the good stuff we've gotten instead.
I'm gonna remind you of one of those things I've reminded you of before Sam. Take a look at the big picture. You know you're not good at putting yourself in other people's shoes, so why put yourself in the dev's shoes and say they should have done things differently?
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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It's not the nth time for new players.|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
I can not help it. When people even hint that they would rather people go to IP AGAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN for the 90 bajillionth time to travel across that zone 45 gragillion more times it makes me want to vomit.
We need New zones with New stuff to do. Period. I would be happy if some world event happeneds and IP got sucked into a black hole... and then could suck Boomtown into that same hole... and maybe half of the Shard... |
And, if it go a revamp so it wasn't all fail, then it WOULD be new for old players anyway.
I haven't done most of the blueside missions, simply cos it's mind numbingly boring trying to get to them.
I remember the one time I managed to do the Striga arcs, and they were actually good fun. Getting to them was what made it nor worth it.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Actually, you're right- "lazy" isn't a good description.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
I'm not so sure a lot of it could be called lazy.
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It looks lazy from our current perspective, but it's just an artifact of an abandoned design system (slowing down progress by whatever means were at hand).
It's a little like the human appendix- it used to serve a purpose, but now it just gets in the way and nobody would miss its removal.
I'm hoping we'll get an early game re-write at some point after the release of GR. With the recent changes to teaming and leveling, new content made available at any level is open to everybody without too much trouble. I'd be happy to take all my high level heroes and run through some revamped early content in Atlas, Kings, Skyway, wherever.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Point to you, then. You were absolutely right and I was horribly wrong |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Hah!
See Sam, all you had to do to come around to my point of view was go back and play some of the ratty old story arcs. As I've said, I'm not against travel & sightseeing per se, I'm just against a ton of pointless running around dictated by lazy game design. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here's the thing, though - I've hated these things since the day they were put into the game. They were bad ideas then, and they've only felt like worse and worse ideas at time went on. When I say there's no reason they should be there, I mean to begin with. I understand why they aren't being changed now, but it's not like they were good ideas back in the past, either. Security Chief missions have been a personal bane of mine, and I've seen a number of people complain about them, pretty much since 2004. Contact introduction missions were a mistake ever since 2005, and I've never seen them do anything other than frustrate people or trick them into thinking they HAVE to work for these contacts.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Of course there's a reason they still exist. It's called a budget and a schedule. They have to make hard choices sometimes. When deciding between tweaking old hero contacts so they don't hand out pointless missions to the occasional vet who chooses to give it a try (even though they should know nothing has been changed), over making new missions that everyone can enjoy, the option is kind of a no brainer.
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Again, PvP liaison introductions ARE a good idea, as is the difficulty person, but Security Chiefs? OK, we need a mission like this, but why is it MANDATORY?
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| I'm gonna remind you of one of those things I've reminded you of before Sam. Take a look at the big picture. You know you're not good at putting yourself in other people's shoes, so why put yourself in the dev's shoes and say they should have done things differently? |
I just don't get it, and this is part of what irritates me so much.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This kind of thing is a large part of why I barely play hero-side these days. CoV doesn't really suffer from this issue. There are a couple of points where you're asked to go talk to people, but it's pretty much just the PvP zone reps and Seer Marino, and none involve a huge amount of travel. The devs even thoughtfully placed Seer Marino next to a helicopter from Cap to Mercy.
I'd love to see some of these clunky mechanics and pieces of outdated design cleared up on hero side - the game would be so much more polished for new players, and I might go back to the many abadoned heroes I have. It does especially seem a shame when we know the tech is there for auto-introducing contacts, seeing as it's used extensively villain side, and in a few places hero side.
I suspect some of it won't be fixable, though - it'd be weird for the zones to all get resized now, for instance, even though the devs seem to have realised bigger isn't better when it means you just have to spend more time travelling and less time having fun. And I bet if the overly long and boring arcs were reduced, there would be plenty of complaints from those used to them, or who honestly like them, or who like the higher merit rewards at the end of them. I can't imagine there would be many complaints about not needing to run over to contacts though, so it seems a good one to fix.
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I don't think that you are right about that. Except for Atlas Park and Galaxy City (I'm beating up Hellions anyway) I quit doing the Security Chief missions a long time ago, and I haven't been locked out of any content whatsoever. They are not mandatory.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, they're mandatory. Once a Security Chief mission comes up, ALL of your (regular) contacts will offer either that or a hunt. Some contacts may offer ONE mission before it, because they're coded to always offer a "first" mission, but you cannot avoid doing Security Chief missions unless you avoid the old contact chain entirely. For me to do that, I'd have to go Montague -> Faultline -> Mercedes -> Striga -> Croatoa and on. Any of the old contacts just loitering around Talos or IP WILL offer Security Chief missions until you take them. |
If you aren't being offered a story arc mission, it means that either the contact doesn't have a story arc mission for you; or that contact doesn't want to offer his story arc to you until you have improved relations with him or her; or it means you already have the maximum number of story arcs open.
If you don't want to do the Security Chief mission, then do the other mission the contact offers. Every contact has non-story arc missions in addition to story arc missions. Of course if you don't like the contacts non-story arc missions, you are screwed. But that has nothing to do with the Security Chief missions. Sometimes a contact will offer up two of his or her non story arc missions, even if there is no Security Chief mission up.
I think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. All you had to do was not pick a contact at the far end of Independence Port if you didn't want to make a long series of trips, for whatever missions, until the contact was willing to give you his call button.
Now if wanted to ask the developers to change something, it would be for them to give me the contact's call button when I get the contact's name. This is the twenty-first century, not the eighteenth century. I don't need face to face with someone, I need a mobile phone number.
It should be simple to reprogram the obligatory contacts with one of those nice pop ups they recently introduced for Montague and the Architect arc. This would make the normal content a lot less inconvenient.
And maybe, when they streamline the contacts (a lot) then perhaps people will stop using radio missions all the time.
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Well, yeah, of course red side doesn't send you running off to all sorts of zones. Red side only has seven zones, plus shared pvp and cooperative zones. Blue side has over 20 zones.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Yet the redside does this much less often. They only send you to talk to the first two PvP liasons, I don't remember ever getting sent to talk to the one for Warburg and I know you never have to talk with the one for Recluse's Victory.
They never send you to talk to the Fateweavers, ever. There are no zone security chiefs in the Rogue Isles. Only one time do they send you to talk to a contact in another zone and like with Wilcott that can be avoided by talking to Seer Marino before you leave Mercy Island on your way to Port Oakes. The only time you have to talk to a Broker before getting papers is the first time you enter a zone with papers, after that it's automatic. All other times they simply use the "This contact has something for you" pop-up when you reach the appropriate level. Really all "go-talk-to" missions should be replaced with that system instead. Yes, Posi, please fix up the old busted **** already! |
Both red and blue send you to the first two PVP zones, neither sends you to the third.
The police radios blue side and the newspapers red side work the same way. You can't use them until you speak to your first detective/broker. After that you only have to speak to them to get a Safeguard or Mayhem mission. The only real difference is that red side you have to speak to them and win the Mayhem mission in order to get a real contact in a new zone. Blue side this is optional. I find the mandatory Mayhem missions really annoying.
Difficulty levels and the mission to visit the NPC in Kings Row were added before City of Villains came out. They learned something from that. Yes it would be nice not to have to go to Kings Row, but at least they reward you with experience. It would be nice if they dropped that.
I'm agree that the developers should make these kind of quality of life changes, but it requires resources. Someone has to track down the section of code, change it, test it, debug it, test it again. They do make these kinds of changes, recall when they moved a couple of the Kings Row contacts that were in really annoying locations? Its probably on their list, but on low priority.
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Well, SOME code we know exists. For instance, I can go visit the Hollows, talk to the contact, and be on my way, and never be given the "Go see.... " mission. |
Originally Posted by Mirai
Well, the purpose is to introduce newer players to stuff that they could easily miss. The code's not smart enough to figure out that you've already done those missions with other characters. Who knows how difficult it would be to make the code smarter.
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However, if I turn 15 and decide to, oh, run a patrol in BB - nice, fast, come back with temp stealth and a badge - my contact will STILL give me a "Go see the Warzone Liason" mission. That shouldn't (to me) happen. OK, yes, they're different contacts, but if I have *anything* from BB, I obviously know about the zone. Same with the Hero Corps contact, though not everyone bumps their rep that early.
The Security Chief, IMHO, should (a) be moved to the newspaper and/or (b) be a "Click him specifically to get his hunts" style mission.
Last but not least, we know contacts can be "introduced" without having to talk to them, with the popups we get at various levels. Give a checkbox to "Move to inactive" or something similar and I think everyone would be happy.
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So people say the devs are too busy doing GR to change the old contact introduction missions, but there *is* a much easier solution. Just raise the max number of missions in your queue to 5. Then having one or even 2 dross missions sitting there is no big deal.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The only difference between a regular contact introduction and an introduction mission is that with a contact introduction, you pick when (and if) you want to go, whereas with an introduction mission, you do it NOW, or it clogs a spot in your mission queue. And unlike a lot of other MMOs, here you only have three. One down is a big thing.
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They don't OFFER another mission when the Security Chief pops up. That is the *sum total* of missions you'll get - there's no "Talk to the security chief / Go do X" choice. And contacts will get stuck on that until either you do the mission or outlevel them.
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Originally Posted by Afterimage
I don't think that you are right about that. Except for Atlas Park and Galaxy City (I'm beating up Hellions anyway) I quit doing the Security Chief missions a long time ago, and I haven't been locked out of any content whatsoever. They are not mandatory.
If you aren't being offered a story arc mission, it means that either the contact doesn't have a story arc mission for you; or that contact doesn't want to offer his story arc to you until you have improved relations with him or her; or it means you already have the maximum number of story arcs open. If you don't want to do the Security Chief mission, then do the other mission the contact offers. Every contact has non-story arc missions in addition to story arc missions. Of course if you don't like the contacts non-story arc missions, you are screwed. But that has nothing to do with the Security Chief missions. Sometimes a contact will offer up two of his or her non story arc missions, even if there is no Security Chief mission up. |
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Sounds nice.
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Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
Just raise the max number of missions in your queue to 5. Then having one or even 2 dross missions sitting there is no big deal.
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I don't think we should have to work around the contacts system like this. This is a game, it's here to be enjoyable. It shouldn't be confusing (as the hero side contact system can be for new players), it shouldn't feel like a chore, and you shouldn't need an encyclopaedic knowledge of know's located where. Missions need to engage people and keep their interest - running back and forth across zones and remembering which contact to take so you don't have to do that just isn't intuitive, isn't fun, and doesn't keep up the pace of the game. Also, remembering which not to take just isn't possible for new players.|
Originally Posted by Afterimage
I think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. All you had to do was not pick a contact at the far end of Independence Port if you didn't want to make a long series of trips, for whatever missions, until the contact was willing to give you his call button.
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Even if this seems like a molehill, enough molehills cause people to either not get into games in the first place (I know there are plenty of games that I've given up on because they just weren't intuitive, or had some boring bits I just couldn't drag myself through), or to leave them when they get irritated enough by all the little molehills they keep tripping over. Software is getting more and more intuitive and easy to navigate - look at things like the Wii or the iPhone, for instance. People are used to a higher standard than in the past, and this game should try to keep pace.
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I don't want new zones... We have enough zones.|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
I can not help it. When people even hint that they would rather people go to IP AGAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN for the 90 bajillionth time to travel across that zone 45 gragillion more times it makes me want to vomit.
We need New zones with New stuff to do. Period. I would be happy if some world event happeneds and IP got sucked into a black hole... and then could suck Boomtown into that same hole... and maybe half of the Shard... |
I want all the zones we have to be as well done as we are expecting the new content in GR to be. Period. Best of both worlds, IMO.
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Very much agreed on this. The thing that really concerned me was when Posi said (I think it was on the EU test server pre I15?) that they'd rather make new zones, as a zone remake takes just about as much effort.|
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
I don't want new zones... We have enough zones.
I want all the zones we have to be as well done as we are expecting the new content in GR to be. Period. Best of both worlds, IMO. |
Quality over quantity, please. The good content is there hero side, but you have to go out of the way to get to it, you have to explicitly avoid the older, poorer stuff, or work your way through it to get to some of the good older stuff. I had to direct a friend of mine who started playing this year to the better content as she wasn't really getting along with hero side very well after starting as a villain. I guess the "go see so-and-so" missions are an attempt to get people to go play the story zones, but I don't think they really work, they're just an irritatation. A proper re-work would be much more effective.
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amen, one thing that the halloween event is driving heavily home is that we dont have the population to be compartmentalizing several servers, 2 sides and instanced content without making the game look like an absolute graveyard.
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Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
I don't want new zones... We have enough zones.
I want all the zones we have to be as well done as we are expecting the new content in GR to be. Period. Best of both worlds, IMO. |
We need New zones with New stuff to do. Period. I would be happy if some world event happeneds and IP got sucked into a black hole... and then could suck Boomtown into that same hole... and maybe half of the Shard...