Stop wasting my time with nonsense!
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-24 08:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The number of zones isn't that relevant, it's how their used.|
Originally Posted by Afterimage
Well, yeah, of course red side doesn't send you running off to all sorts of zones. Red side only has seven zones, plus shared pvp and cooperative zones. Blue side has over 20 zones.
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Villain story arcs are mostly contained in the zone your contact is in.
Older Hero story arcs send you all over creation, nearly always for no good reason other than to pad your gameplay with nutrition free filler.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
ah the contacts...
...heroside contact never changes...
This is something they probably could do 'inbetween issues' once they've got Going Rogue out the door and in a decent shape. Get someone to tidy up the early stuff.
However I think Going Rogue IS going to introduce newbie revamps if I've read correctly.
My biggest worry with Going Rogue is that it will merely highlight just how poor the original hero content is.
If a new player starts out in Praetoria and decides to be a hero, the 1-20 trip will be filled with missions designed with all the mission design experience the developers have garnered from Issue 1 to the present and likely include branching dialog, cutscenes and the like. Then once they've arrived in Paragon City they're given missions with none of that.
They're given contacts like Wilson Eziquerra, a contact who, up until five minutes ago, I never knew existed.
This is the other major problem with the original City of Heroes content: the contacts are, for the most part, mission dispensers with no character at all.
This needs to change.
First: replace the original contact models with models created with the costume creator. Most modern contacts use the player model and player-available costume parts, with some having unique parts. This may seem like an odd suggestion, but the old models are really ugly and could use a major facelift.
Second: get rid of duplicate contacts. There are a number of contacts that share the same arcs. Double the contacts does not mean double the content.
Third: make the contact MATTER. Your contact should have a personal involvement in the story, either by showing interest and concern through dialog or by showing up in the missions themselves. They don't have to be the star, but the contact should be meaningful to the story in some way. Most original contacts don't figure into the story at all and are utterly forgettable and completely interchangeable.
Fourth: cut the fat. Rewrite the longer arcs and remove the pointless fluff missions that don't advance the plot. We don't need to clear out 5 different warehouses when we'll get the point after clearing out just one. Scrap the boring arcs or rewrite them to be at least somewhat interesting. And cut out the non-arc missions. Most of them, anyway.
Doing these things not only removes a lot of the disparity between the old and new content but it also encourages longtime players to level characters through content rather than powerlevel past it. One of the attractions of powerleveling is being able to skip the boring crap.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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I was commiserating with Golden Ace earlier tonight about the lack of a moon zone. Now I know why it doesn't exist yet: they're using heroes for construction, and the workforce has to commute there on foot.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Note for people itching to give me negative reputation: Maybe I'll have to talk to the Terra Volta Security Chief, or I'll have to patrol Independence Port, or I'll have to go to the moon ON FOOT.
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Also, I agree with everything Samuel Tow said in the OP, as well as the erudite way it was expressed. It's particularly frustrating (and conceptually odd) that contacts give out these talk-to missions early in their mission queues, meaning you spend the first half to third of their contact bar doing nothing for the contacts themselves.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
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Hammer, meet nail. As much of a goody two shoes as I am in real life, I have difficulty playing blueside due to the way the content is done. As a newer player than most, I can't tell what's supposedly old content (actually I can due to style difference in mission structure but that took a bit). It's a shame since there is fun stuff there. It took a bit bit to find the Vahzilok Plague arc but I enjoyed it. The fact that they KEEP telling me about Hollows and Faultline can be annoying but I greatly enjoyed both zones.|
Originally Posted by Demobot
My biggest worry with Going Rogue is that it will merely highlight just how poor the original hero content is.
If a new player starts out in Praetoria and decides to be a hero, the 1-20 trip will be filled with missions designed with all the mission design experience the developers have garnered from Issue 1 to the present and likely include branching dialog, cutscenes and the like. Then once they've arrived in Paragon City they're given missions with none of that. They're given contacts like Wilson Eziquerra, a contact who, up until five minutes ago, I never knew existed. This is the other major problem with the original City of Heroes content: the contacts are, for the most part, mission dispensers with no character at all. This needs to change. First: replace the original contact models with models created with the costume creator. Most modern contacts use the player model and player-available costume parts, with some having unique parts. This may seem like an odd suggestion, but the old models are really ugly and could use a major facelift. Second: get rid of duplicate contacts. There are a number of contacts that share the same arcs. Double the contacts does not mean double the content. Third: make the contact MATTER. Your contact should have a personal involvement in the story, either by showing interest and concern through dialog or by showing up in the missions themselves. They don't have to be the star, but the contact should be meaningful to the story in some way. Most original contacts don't figure into the story at all and are utterly forgettable and completely interchangeable. Fourth: cut the fat. Rewrite the longer arcs and remove the pointless fluff missions that don't advance the plot. We don't need to clear out 5 different warehouses when we'll get the point after clearing out just one. Scrap the boring arcs or rewrite them to be at least somewhat interesting. And cut out the non-arc missions. Most of them, anyway. Doing these things not only removes a lot of the disparity between the old and new content but it also encourages longtime players to level characters through content rather than powerlevel past it. One of the attractions of powerleveling is being able to skip the boring crap. |
Mix and matching portions of the above points (not all contacts need all parts) will go a long way towards helping blueside. I've been contemplating a suggestion about contacts and it's good to see I have a similar train of thought to some here.
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And quite often, if you manage to outlevel those contacts, then the next set of contacts will try to start you off with "Talk to the Security Chief" for whatever the next higher level zone is.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
They don't OFFER another mission when the Security Chief pops up. That is the *sum total* of missions you'll get - there's no "Talk to the security chief / Go do X" choice. And contacts will get stuck on that until either you do the mission or outlevel them.
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I've had quite a few instances where my current contacts all insist I go see the Steel Canyon Security Chief. Then I manage to outlevel them and go on to the next set of contacts. Lo and behold. What is the first thing they want me to do (before offering anything else)?
"Go talk to the Boomtown Security Chief."
Here's an interesting rep comment:
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Yes, yes I do. First thing and last thing I do on each forum session. Can you really blame me, though?
Just giving you negative rep to see if you check it all the time like some sort of obsessed weasel despite having shut it off. 
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Oh, and here's a little bonus for you, guys:
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| Obvious troll is obvious. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This is pretty much what I was worried about, and why I fairly recently directed a friend to the story zones (Hollows, Faultline, etc.). It is a shame though, as while you can get yourself up to a good level just on those, there's other stuff out in the main zones that is worth playing - the Freaklympics arc springs to mind.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
As a newer player than most, I can't tell what's supposedly old content (actually I can due to style difference in mission structure but that took a bit). It's a shame since there is fun stuff there. It took a bit bit to find the Vahzilok Plague arc but I enjoyed it. The fact that they KEEP telling me about Hollows and Faultline can be annoying but I greatly enjoyed both zones.
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Even the better original arcs hero-side could use some work; as Demobot said, one of the biggest problems is the contacts, who are bland. They don't pull you into the story, they don't really seem that involved or interested - in some cases, even when the bio on them tells you that they should be. A bet a lot of arcs could be greatly improved by a bit of rewording of contact and mission text, and maybe forcing the missions to largely appear in the same zone. Bigger changes could certainly be made, but if there's only time for something like that, I think it'd really help.
Also, I'm liking Demobot's suggestion to remake the contacts as far as looks go. Just have a look at villain side contacts, or newer contacts, and there's a huge difference. I can barely remember any of the old hero contacts, but I could tell you what Mr Bocor or Jim Temblor looks like.
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This is pretty much how it is for me. I'm a patient person. I can deal with bad design, time wastes and recycled contents. I've been gaming since the 1990s, so I've played my fair share of stupid games, all the way through to the end. I can take these problems, big and small.|
Originally Posted by Cybercel
Even if this seems like a molehill, enough molehills cause people to either not get into games in the first place (I know there are plenty of games that I've given up on because they just weren't intuitive, or had some boring bits I just couldn't drag myself through), or to leave them when they get irritated enough by all the little molehills they keep tripping over. Software is getting more and more intuitive and easy to navigate - look at things like the Wii or the iPhone, for instance. People are used to a higher standard than in the past, and this game should try to keep pace.
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The problem here isn't one specific mission or one specific instance. The problem is that these annoyances are all over the place. It just adds up. I can deal with this, I can deal with that, I can deal with that other thing, I can ignore this, ignore that, make an exception here, an exception there, but... Well, at the end of the day, when this culminates into a string of these annoying things, the top of my head just blows off like a kettle lid, and I post an angry rant.
They're all little things, but they add up over time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That sort of design instantly reminded me of those tourist trap "free" to play MMOs out there. They get you to log in, start you off with cool, exciting quests and plenty of location and enemy variety, give you lots of cool gear and generally show you a very good time. Then at around level 20-30, the story dies up, the enemies loop, the gear and experience grind becomes horrible and you are ever so slightly nudged to spend real money to help yourself along. It's like the first part of the game is one elaborate tourist trap to get you hooked, and that's pretty much where the good development which costs money stops.|
Originally Posted by Demobot
If a new player starts out in Praetoria and decides to be a hero, the 1-20 trip will be filled with missions designed with all the mission design experience the developers have garnered from Issue 1 to the present and likely include branching dialog, cutscenes and the like. Then once they've arrived in Paragon City they're given missions with none of that.
They're given contacts like Wilson Eziquerra, a contact who, up until five minutes ago, I never knew existed. |
Granted, in our case it isn't like that. The newer zones are simply better made with the experience gained over years of examining our tastes and preferences, but it can FEEL like that if you go from the new content back to the old one and you suddenly feel like you were cheated. What? Was that all? Will the content from here on out be so bad? I was ripped off!
This actually happens with the Hollows if you go that route. Now, let it be known that I HATE the Hollows, because the story ends in an 8-man timed Trial which I've never been able to do, but at least it IS a story... Kind of. So you do this somewhat concise story which ends in a large unique map and a pretty cool fight, and the zone ends. You go back to your regular contacts, and what missions do they give you? Bloody Bay liaison, Hero Corps field analyst, Skyway City Security Chief, visit Jim Temblor. And even if you work with Temblor, you'll get kicked out of Falutline before you hit 20, and be faced with the Boomtown Security Chief first thing. Ugh! We should have such a step-down in content quality.
One thing I will agree with you on - axe the redundant contacts and give the remaining ones unique costumes. I've talked about the benefit of having them redundant in the past so that you can never really get that sense of "I've done it all!" that you get in City of Villains where I know them all by name, but I'm going to have to change my mind. No-one remembers the contacts anyway, we remember their missions and arcs, and we don't really need more contacts than those. In fact, the redundant contacts are what makes the CoH content so dang confusing. You can never tell who offers which missions so finding an arc you like requires Paragon Wiki.
I'd keep away from redoing their actual missions, though. Just axe the time-wasting ones, pull the Security Chiefs into their own contacts who give endless hunts (and stuff them along with Brokers/Detectives) and leave the missions as written. I wouldn't be opposed to constraining them in the same zone as the contact a little more, though HOW much is up for debate.
Generally, though, I just want out of the introduction missions. They're pointless, they give no reward and they cannot be avoided.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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While I agree that much of the old hero content sends you on needless jaunts over great distances, we have been given ways to get around that.
My usual leveling path involves sweeping or sewers for the first few levels, King's Row scanner missions to 10 for the temp travel powers, then Hollows, Faultline, Striga, and Croatoa, with the occasional scanner mission, Architect arc, Task Force, powerlevel, or teaming at another level to get past dry spots.
Once you get into the 30s there are plenty of interesting things to do.
If there were no alternative to those dreadful run-around missions that Sam is talking about, I would agree that something has to be done right away. But since we do have alternatives, I would rather have brand new content and simply keep this on the back burner of quality-of-life-things-that-should-be-changed-at-some-point-when-there-is-time.
It might even be a good idea to introduce those changes gradually. Sometimes things don't get done because the project seems too large. Which, if you define the task as updating all pre-issue 5 content, can seem pretty daunting.
But if you let some developer play with one or two contacts per issue and scatter those contacts into different level ranges we would soon have an alternative leveling plan free from the annoying long distance travel.
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Just want to sayn that what Sam's complaining about in his OP didn't really bother me at all when i was a new player (in fact i found it quite cool to see the City on my way around it), and it still doesn't bother me now, 5 yrs on.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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The problem with that is that I'm sick and tired of the Hollows and Faultline, and Striga and Croatoa have arcs that are downright terrible. This is only a small subsection of the content, and the the bulk of the hero-side content is still the conventional pre-I1 contacts. The only way I can avoid boring myself to tears after 5 years of playing this game is to mix up the content, and this simply precludes me from playing, say, the Hollows twice in a row on two new characters. I can do it on one, but the next one will need something else.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
My usual leveling path involves sweeping or sewers for the first few levels, King's Row scanner missions to 10 for the temp travel powers, then Hollows, Faultline, Striga, and Croatoa, with the occasional scanner mission, Architect arc, Task Force, powerlevel, or teaming at another level to get past dry spots.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I do agree with the O.P. that these run around missions can be annoying.
I would just like to offer a small counter point. I started playing after i15, and what people might not appreciate is just how big Paragon city is after 5 years.
As a new player I definitely needed and appreciated these hand holding missions on my first run through. A lot of team offers when I started seemed to be focused on AE which didn't interest me as I hadn't experienced any of the regular content yet.
It is worth remembering that when you first step into Paragon city, particularly after its years of growth, it is huge. After i16 it is also very nearly completely open.
Did I know that Steel was safer than Talos, or that Founders Falls was I smige less safe than Perez. No.
Did the now irritating hand holding missions get me through. Yes.
I also really enjoyed the Hollows and Faultline arcs and they probably got me hooked on the game.
Saying that personally its the Founders Falls contacts obsession with sending me to Kings Road before they give me a phone number that gets on my nerves but oh well.
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For me, this is where MA comes in.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The problem with that is that I'm sick and tired of the Hollows and Faultline, and Striga and Croatoa have arcs that are downright terrible.
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There are a number of fun, lowbie friendly arcs that will level you at good speed without forcing you to farm or sleepwalk through 'real' content that's going to drive you crazy with one more play-through.
Even with your specific & somewhat stringent story requirements, I'll bet there are some arcs out there you'd enjoy, or at least enjoy more than played out 'real' content.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I mostly play villian side and the contacts there are pretty good about sending you running around the maps etc. I leveled a scrapper recently and imo the heroside maps/mission design are horrendous. Switching trains/boats because they don't go certain places or traveling ages to find a invention lab is retarded.
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That's the thing, though - I don't dislike the actual CONTENT of the low-levels. Sure, some missions are better than others, but it's not he content itself that's the problem. The problem is missions which AREN'T content, but rather... Well, a waste of time. It's like sitting down to have a big dinner and having someone constantly have you get up to pass the salt, grab them a drink, change the channel on the TV, get a glass out of the cuboard, etc. It's frustrating because it takes you away from what you really want to do - sit down and take a bite out of crime.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
For me, this is where MA comes in.
There are a number of fun, lowbie friendly arcs that will level you at good speed without forcing you to farm or sleepwalk through 'real' content that's going to drive you crazy with one more play-through. Even with your specific & somewhat stringent story requirements, I'll bet there are some arcs out there you'd enjoy, or at least enjoy more than played out 'real' content. |
...
I can't believe I just said that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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One thousand times what Sam has said.
Stop sending me to Bloody Bay.
Stop sending me to Seer Marino.
Stop sendimg me to Jim Tremblor.
Yes, I understand these may be items of interest to a new player.
Tha may complicate things somewhat, but how about a veteran badge check? Sadly, this would affect a new account as well as a new player.
I PL a lot but lately I've PLd past those 'boiling points' just so I don't get sent to those zones. Amazingly, I've gotten a contact at level 39 after a safeguard and they didn't send me to the crappy Warburg Liaison or whatever...
So annoying...
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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Thing is, how are newer players supposed to know all the little loopholes? The problem with constantly sticking things on the back burner is that if left unchecked, you run the risk of burning your house down.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
While I agree that much of the old hero content sends you on needless jaunts over great distances, we have been given ways to get around that.
--- If there were no alternative to those dreadful run-around missions that Sam is talking about, I would agree that something has to be done right away. But since we do have alternatives, I would rather have brand new content and simply keep this on the back burner of quality-of-life-things-that-should-be-changed-at-some-point-when-there-is-time. |
I agree that a gradual change is probably much better than trying to revamp everything at once. Also, rather than getting rid of contacts, repurpose them. Let contact A who had the Vahzilok Plague keep the arc. Let contact B who had the arc get some "hunts with a twist" and a few radio style missions so people who want a different style of play can have that option.
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hah!|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's the thing, though - I don't dislike the actual CONTENT of the low-levels. Sure, some missions are better than others, but it's not he content itself that's the problem. The problem is missions which AREN'T content, but rather... Well, a waste of time. It's like sitting down to have a big dinner and having someone constantly have you get up to pass the salt, grab them a drink, change the channel on the TV, get a glass out of the cuboard, etc. It's frustrating because it takes you away from what you really want to do - sit down and take a bite out of crime.
... I can't believe I just said that. |
well, the legacy hero content is chock full of that sort of junk while MA is 100% filler free...is, in fact, concentrated so that you don't need to leave the building if you don't want.
Here's hoping the comments about 'revamped low level content' in the GR thread mean they'll be cleaning up the older stuff hero side and giving new villains some alternate paths to follow.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Bad example, the appendix still does serve a purpose. While's it's not a vital organ and you can easily live without thanks to modern food and medicine, that doesn't mean that it serves no purpose.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
It's a little like the human appendix- it used to serve a purpose, but now it just gets in the way and nobody would miss its removal.
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Okay, tonsils then.
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Blue side has a lot of redundant zones. Aside from scenery there is no real reason to visit contacts in IP instead of Talos, each of them shares story arcs with a contact in the other zone and they're going to send you to everywhere but their own zone over and over. I got fed up with IP not only for the massive amounts of empty space to travel over but for the contacts in the back end of nowhere sending me back to Talos over and over before finally giving up their phone.|
Originally Posted by Afterimage
Well, yeah, of course red side doesn't send you running off to all sorts of zones. Red side only has seven zones, plus shared pvp and cooperative zones. Blue side has over 20 zones.
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Too often that phone was given after the arc was finished, but which point I wanted nothing more to do with that contact ever again.
Actually, those are some of the reasons I PREFER IP over Talos... that and the quiet. And the fact that I can actually find something on the map WITHOUT having to zoom in because all the icons are clustered together.
Well the War Walls coming down might help that, and since they won't exist in Praetoria, there's a good possibility that some time after Going Rogue comes out, the War Walls might come down in Paragon City too!
At least I hope.