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Let me ask you a question. What is the point of a stalker?|
So... the main question of this post is: Why do /YOU/ still play a stalker? |
Let me answer that question. The job of a stalker is to do hit and run damage. A stalker hides in the shadows, then pounces a single target, then fades away from view. Proper stalkers hit their prey as hard as they can, then book it to a safe hiding spot.
If you play a stalker right, you should have an experience of an expert assassin. Darting in and removing the lethal and annoying foes. Able to go anywhere and everywhere, past the massive defenses any enemy is able to provide.
***
Now, let me ask you another question. What is not a stalkers job?
Let me answer that question as well. A stalkers job is not provide consistent in-mob dps. A stalkers job is not to take aggro for a team, take an alpha strike, or remain in melee combat.
If you are playing a stalker as you would a scrapper, brute, or tank...
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG
This is one of the reasons why I, personally, loathe tools like MIDS. MIDS does not tell you how a class is supposed to be played, nor what the purpose of a class is.
Actually PLAYING THE GAME will tell you what a class feels like to play.
Of course the numbers on Stalker damage are going to come up shorter than scrapper or brute damage.
But, if you've actually played the game, you'd know that stalkers now get critical chances outside of hide while in a team. The larger the team, the more likely the stalker is to critical if the stalker winds up in a position where it has to do consistent or extended melee combat.
So the line you wrote here:
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| Anyone else has the feeling stalkers are being left behind because the devs don't know what to do with the hide/AS system? Once out of hide, we are a scrapper with less damage. On an AV fight we can AS once, any AS after this is actually LOSS of DPS. Placate/AS barely burst the DPS, and wait all the 6 seconds to start other AS is a killer in our damage. |
Actually, Stalkers are quite capable of remaining in melee combat. They don't hit and run. They hit first, then keep hitting. The "book it to a safe hiding spot" is unnecessary because the safest spot is amongst a pile of your foes' remains.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I am aware that stalkers are not meant to be played as a scrapper or brute, and yes, I am PLAYING the game with my stalker, I know they can get crits.
Being an stealth assassin is fun when soloing, but what can a stalker bring to a team if everything else is dead as soon as you are done with the boss you AS'd?
Your post is right in basically everything, I know the stalker whole very well, and when soloing I feel absolutely like a ninja! But... teaming feels like I don't bring as much as everyone else.
By the way, you didn't answer the post main question. 
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Agree, hit and run works fine soloing, teaming it is just loss of damage.
| The "book it to a safe hiding spot" is unnecessary because the safest spot is amongst a pile of your foes' remains. |
WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
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My Stalker is DM/Nin, level 50. For comparison, I also have a 50 Broadsword/Shield Scrapper and a 47 SS/WP Brute. All three have full IO builds.|
Originally Posted by Panikaze
So I started a stalker, or LOLSTALKER, like a friend of mine usually say, along with alot more people...
I was checking on MIDs all the numbers, DPA, DPS of most stalkers attacks and for a single target, mellee archtype, the stalker is behind brutes and scrappers by a GOOD amount. The stalkers forums is the slower of all forums, which makes me wonder if it's really true that less and less people play this AT. Currently I am with a Elec/Ninjitsu project, trying to prove to my friend that a stalker can be a killing machine, but, looking to the numbers on mids, (I managed to make a build with 172 DPS on a Elec), between a stalker and a brute, it's WAAAY cheaper to make the brute version (Elec/shield in this case), and it would still outperform the stalker, both on AoE and ST damage. Anyone else has the feeling stalkers are being left behind because the devs don't know what to do with the hide/AS system? Once out of hide, we are a scrapper with less damage. On an AV fight we can AS once, any AS after this is actually LOSS of DPS. Placate/AS barely burst the DPS, and wait all the 6 seconds to start other AS is a killer in our damage. I am not aware of how is stalkers in pvp, but I assume they're still good, expecially with ROFLTHROWSHARKS. Maybe the issue is just pve wise. If you take for exemple an widow, it deals more DPS than a stalker, with alot of team buffs. A brute deals more damage than a stalker, and can tank. Remove threat is not stalkers main purpose anymore since any perma dom can lock a whole spawn with one click! So... the main question of this post is: Why do /YOU/ still play a stalker? |
My answer to your main question is 'Because it's fun.' I realize that this says nothing about your balance concerns, but it really is the reason I still play my Stalker.
But more relevantly, my stalker's damage doesn't feel weak at all. I can one-shot minions at will without using build up or AS - my Scrapper can do this with a lucky headsplitter crit, and my Brute can do this with KO Blow and enough fury, but neither of them can do it as simply or as constantly as my Stalker. The random chance for critting outside of hide makes me feel fine about sticking around and scrapping it out, and the added chance to crit on teams makes me feel like I'm at least pulling my own weight, though I will admit that my Scrapper and Brute do feel like they're contributing more. That I have no AoE damage whatsoever is the limiting factor there.
My Stalker's ST damage is so good, it makes me feel like Scrapper Broadsword's burst damage is overrated. There is a huge qualitative difference between one-shotting minions (or LTs, if I feel like ASing) whenever I feel like it and one-shotting them a mere 15% of the time with my Scrapper, even if my Scrapper ends up doing more damage overall by virtue of her higher base, better build up numbers, and actual area damage. I love critting so frequently, and picking those crits so often. Don't get me wrong... having no area attacks is a significant disadvantage in terms of team contribution compared to those other two melee ATs. But it's hard for me to feel bad about my damage when I can kill an even-con Paragon Protector in just five or six moves.
Yes, my Stalker has distinct disadvantages on a team compared to my Brute and my Scrapper, but they aren't massive enough to make me feel gimped. Also, the Stalker's playstyle is just totally different compared to those two ATs, whereas my Brute and Scrapper feel pretty similar when I play either of them.
If I wanted to min/max for team contribution or large solo spawns, I really would make a Scrapper or Brute instead. The Stalker can do things that they can't and vice versa, but their tricks are just more useful to a team. Generally, though, I find that the game isn't so hard that you need to optimize teams like that, and the performance differences between Scrappers and Brutes vs. Stalkers aren't extreme enough to make me feel useless with my Stalker.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
Meh, I don't care for the advice je_saist gave. It basically perpetuates the weakness the other 3 melee ATs have against Stalkers and that's that they are useless in melee. Just to define 'melee', it's the state of using melee ranged attacks to incapacitate foes. Hitting and running is like saying "I can use melee attacks against you but EEEeeeE! I can't *actually* face you..."
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Panikaze, that is a weakness of the set you choose. Similarly, an Elec/ brute has the same weakness: weak Single Target Damage. However an Elec/ stalker has at least 1 tool over Brute to remedy that: Assassin's Shock. Rolling an Elec/ brute won't be better in the ST department. Basically, you'll still be pounding on that boss and the team will finally finish it for you.| Being an stealth assassin is fun when soloing, but what can a stalker bring to a team if everything else is dead as soon as you are done with the boss you AS'd? |
Elec/ strength is its AoE, its AoE burst to be precise. While as a stalker, you can focus on a single target, your focus should be splashing as many foes with crits as you can.
On a different note, my DM/WP stalker will take out EBs by the time the team finishes off the rest of the spawns. Basically, he can drop bosses very very fast...maybe not 'take out EB before spawn' fast but fast. If the team is wiping out spawns so fast you can't take out the bosses in time, then you're on a lolmelee team. It won't matter if you're a Brute or a Scrapper, you'll add little to the team.
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| Why do /YOU/ still play a stalker? |
Also, picking your fights feels more intelligent than mindlessly running and smashing everything. It just so happens you get rewarded as a Stalker for this but punished as a Brute.
Those are the answers I wanted.
People still play stalkers more for the fun they provide and the feeling of being a stealth assassin more than the numbers they put...
^^ thanks for the answers, but the first poster who didn't answer it :P
As for me, by the way, yes, I will keep going with my stalker, because despite of her flaws of single target, when I'm soloing it feels so awesome to pick my targets, sneak behind them and one shot! *_*
WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
My first guide, i15 plant/thorn dominator! Check it. NOW!
Sorry for the back to back posts, I forgot to say something...
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They have slowed down quite a bit, but if you think about it, come i16, everyone got shiny new sets like Electric, Radiation and OMGCLAWS! but Stalkers just got Broadsword. It's not that Broadswords is bad, it's just boring cause we already have Katana.| The stalkers forums is the slower of all forums, which makes me wonder if it's really true that less and less people play this AT. |
Even though I love all my Stalkers to death, I'm playing a Claws Brute at the moment. Once Stalkers get some shiny, I'll be all over it.
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| Once out of hide, we are a scrapper with less damage. |
My final advice to you is this: It's not how fast you take down the foe, it's how you do it. Stalkers have style and dropping a foe whose pants are down never gets old. Rather than min/maxing and worrying about DPS, I suggest just playing the game, experiment with the tools Stalkers have and have fun. You *can* min/max but well, that's just less attention you're paying to style.
You're graded on style as a stalker, just so you know.
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I do far more damage by opening with one thousand cuts and scrapping it out. The run away tactics are unnecessary on teams.
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Let me ask you a question. What is the point of a stalker?
Let me answer that question. The job of a stalker is to do hit and run damage. A stalker hides in the shadows, then pounces a single target, then fades away from view. Proper stalkers hit their prey as hard as they can, then book it to a safe hiding spot. If you play a stalker right, you should have an experience of an expert assassin. Darting in and removing the lethal and annoying foes. Able to go anywhere and everywhere, past the massive defenses any enemy is able to provide. *** Now, let me ask you another question. What is not a stalkers job? Let me answer that question as well. A stalkers job is not provide consistent in-mob dps. A stalkers job is not to take aggro for a team, take an alpha strike, or remain in melee combat. If you are playing a stalker as you would a scrapper, brute, or tank... YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG This is one of the reasons why I, personally, loathe tools like MIDS. MIDS does not tell you how a class is supposed to be played, nor what the purpose of a class is. Actually PLAYING THE GAME will tell you what a class feels like to play. Of course the numbers on Stalker damage are going to come up shorter than scrapper or brute damage. But, if you've actually played the game, you'd know that stalkers now get critical chances outside of hide while in a team. The larger the team, the more likely the stalker is to critical if the stalker winds up in a position where it has to do consistent or extended melee combat. So the line you wrote here: Is absolutely tripe. You do not understand the point of Hide and Assassin's Strike and the critical capabilities. The developers. DO! |
Pick a primary with some AOE - Elec and Dual Blades are great.
My stalker can take Alpha strikes by AS on a tough mob and the AOE fear effect, plus a To-hit debuff that isnt reduced by AV scaling.
So what do scrappers bring to teams exactly?
More damage, usually :P and they are less squichy, but the point of the topic is why to play a stalker!
So far the conclusion is that people play them more for the fun than anything else, which is nice I'm enjoying mine ALOT.
WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
My first guide, i15 plant/thorn dominator! Check it. NOW!
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Yes, yes you are.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG
|
To answer the OP:
I play Stalkers because they're more fun than Scrappers or Brutes. There is a tradeoff in how tight the builds are, especially early, but the ability to control your criticals, the extra survivability of Demoralize on top of what your defenses already provide, and the fact that you don't need to dictate a constant must-go-must-go-must-SMASH pace in order to do damage are things that the other ATs you compare to don't get.
Scrappers to me just seem "meh". If I wanted to do damage on a team environment I'll just play a Blaster - or a Kinetic anything. The recent buff to Lightning Rod and Shield Charge makes an Electric/Shield Scrapper look appealing, but for the same IO investment to get decent survivability out of shields, my Ill/Rad Controller will just destroy anything and everything she runs into.
Brutes are fun, but at times the Fury minigame gets old. But if you're just minmaxing your entire way through, why are you even looking at melee classes?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Ehhh... maybe.|
Originally Posted by Panikaze
More damage, usually :P and they are less squichy, but the point of the topic is why to play a stalker!
|
More AoE damage, generally yes (with some set-by-set exceptions). If you're just attacking a single target on a mid-sized or larger team that's not scattered to the four winds, a Stalker will give you more damage because of the extra criticals.
(A full sized team is a 31% critical chance on every attack if they're within range (not that hard to do), plus guaranteed criticals - more than double the Scrapper's best critical rate and typically triple what they're going to have against a hard target... that makes up for a LOT).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
As usual, I agree with Siolfir.
That higher crit rate on teams is a really big deal. The reason I chose an electric melee scrapper over any other type is the addition of Assassin's strike to make up for the set's lack of ST damage. And I'm not looking at mids right now, but if you placate->buildup->assassin I really doubt that's taking damage out of your chain, plus there's the demoralize debuffs.
On teams as an electric melee stalker, you really don't have to be messing with the boss, in fact you probably shouldn't. Let the brute handle him, use those sexeh aoe crits and lightning rod, cause you're the AoE guy. When everything is mopped up, then you contribute to taking out whatever boss is left.
I have a scrapper at 50 too (DM/SD). There are certain combos that work better with one AT and certain ones that work better with the other. Example, I have made a kat/elec stalker, something I have no desire to make a scrapper out of. Why? Epic pools; I can pick up soul's shadow meld to seriously augment my survivability, or leviathan's hibernate and waterspout. The Scrapper pools don't really have much that can add so much survivability, though they do have higher hp. I can also get a good number of criticals in AoE's with hide. Playing him right now feels like pulling teeth, and the Scrapper version would be a ton easier, but once I have him at 50 and IO'd, he'll be sick in ways the Scrapper counter-part won't be, plain and simple.
As to brutes, I don't like fury. Keeping it up is easy and all, but I'm one of those people that it will stick in the back of my mind and stress me out to make sure I keep it up.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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Actually your the one doing it wrong. With all the changes stalkers have had in the past there is no way a scrapper can out damage a stalker in single target damage. And if you get on a melee heavy team you can easily out damage brutes with the same primary. Seriously if you dont know how to leverage crits and AS then you are doing it wrong.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Let me ask you a question. What is the point of a stalker?
Let me answer that question. The job of a stalker is to do hit and run damage. A stalker hides in the shadows, then pounces a single target, then fades away from view. Proper stalkers hit their prey as hard as they can, then book it to a safe hiding spot. If you play a stalker right, you should have an experience of an expert assassin. Darting in and removing the lethal and annoying foes. Able to go anywhere and everywhere, past the massive defenses any enemy is able to provide. *** Now, let me ask you another question. What is not a stalkers job? Let me answer that question as well. A stalkers job is not provide consistent in-mob dps. A stalkers job is not to take aggro for a team, take an alpha strike, or remain in melee combat. If you are playing a stalker as you would a scrapper, brute, or tank... YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG This is one of the reasons why I, personally, loathe tools like MIDS. MIDS does not tell you how a class is supposed to be played, nor what the purpose of a class is. Actually PLAYING THE GAME will tell you what a class feels like to play. Of course the numbers on Stalker damage are going to come up shorter than scrapper or brute damage. But, if you've actually played the game, you'd know that stalkers now get critical chances outside of hide while in a team. The larger the team, the more likely the stalker is to critical if the stalker winds up in a position where it has to do consistent or extended melee combat. So the line you wrote here: Is absolutely tripe. You do not understand the point of Hide and Assassin's Strike and the critical capabilities. The developers. DO! |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I have a hard time seeing a stalker breaking 250+ dps.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Actually your the one doing it wrong. With all the changes stalkers have had in the past there is no way a scrapper can out damage a stalker in single target damage.
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Like was said earlier, DPS is misleading and doesn't adequately portray *actual* damage output, just potential damage output.|
Originally Posted by TRTerror
I have a hard time seeing a stalker breaking 250+ dps.
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How do you calculate starting every fight with a dead foe or a built up crit? It'll certainly look different than averaging in BU's +dmg and base crit chances into a linear dps stat.
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Beat me to it! My Stalker can at many times make me think LOLSCRAPPERS! Plus you can stealth a crazy diff mish and if all else fails you can take the aggro for the team....and who can do mayhem mishes better than a stalker? No one!
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Like was said earlier, DPS is misleading and doesn't adequately portray *actual* damage output, just potential damage output.
How do you calculate starting every fight with a dead foe or a built up crit? It'll certainly look different than averaging in BU's +dmg and base crit chances into a linear dps stat. |
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A brute or a mastermind in my opnion :P|
Originally Posted by Negate
and who can do mayhem mishes better than a stalker? No one!
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I was soloing with my stalker (she is now level 30!) on +2, with bosses.
Then I got a mayhem and on the first "true seeing" ambush I almost died. And I finally died on the smash and grab vault ambush of equalizers with lieuts.
So, I think others ATs do mayhem better than stalkers because of focused target ambushes that see you even when you are in hide. Masterminds for exemple in mayhem are very fun to play, especially to destroy everything with pets on aggro. And the bodyguard keep them alive on focused target ambushes.
WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
My first guide, i15 plant/thorn dominator! Check it. NOW!
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I love my stalkers and yes doing the bank jobs are fairly easy with them, but my AR/Traps/Mace Corr, Pojo the Clown, has just an easy time if not easier considering he can drop traps in front of the vators and blow up anything that tries to disturb his safe cracking. Hahaha|
Originally Posted by Negate
and who can do mayhem mishes better than a stalker? No one!
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Besides if you play it smart the bank jobs are manageable for almost anyone solo.
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Thugs/Traps MM.|
Originally Posted by Negate
....and who can do mayhem mishes better than a stalker? No one!
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If the Trip Mines don't kill the ambush(es), the Poison Trap and Caltrops will slow it down while the Acid Mortar and your pets riddle them so full of holes that their grandchildren won't be able to stand swiss cheese because it will remind them of the funeral.
All while you stand back and laugh, since you had plenty of time to set everything up while they were coming at you.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
This thread got me thinking. What is the best Single Target DPS set for Stalkers?
At first I thought maybe Dark Melee, but Stalker version lacks Soul Drain.
And looking at it, Dark Blast seems the attack to take if you want a high DPS build for a stalker.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I believe it's a fight between Ninja Blade and Dark Melee. Katana can produce better raw DPS by the usage of Achilles Heel proc and overall good DPA attacks, but Dark Melee's NE damage doesn't get resisted much anywhere, and has good attacks as well.
I'm leveling up a Nin/SR right now though, soloed my first AV (Aurora Borealis) at level 33. (when I got more slots to Golden Dragonfly)
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Mids is adding damage in dark blast|
Originally Posted by BrandX
This thread got me thinking. What is the best Single Target DPS set for Stalkers?
At first I thought maybe Dark Melee, but Stalker version lacks Soul Drain. And looking at it, Dark Blast seems the attack to take if you want a high DPS build for a stalker. |
http://www.redtomax.com/data/powers/...ery.Dark_Blast
Ugh God let me rephrase this stalker are the best at mayhem mishes at low levels. Even on teams they are the best low lvls (lvl 25 and below). If you guys want to get technical a MM can do anything better than any other AT. Also Traps is godly so yeah no fair lol. This is a stalker thread not a MM thread we're supposed to uplift new peeps and make them want to play stalkers not MM's or Corrs!
Also Stalkers to me are much more fun them MM's I have yet to be able to lvl a MM past 15 w/o wanting to kill myself...but that's me.
So I started a stalker, or LOLSTALKER, like a friend of mine usually say, along with alot more people...
I was checking on MIDs all the numbers, DPA and DPS of most stalkers attacks. For a single target, mellee archtype, the stalker is behind brutes and scrappers by a GOOD amount.
The stalkers forums is the slower of all forums, which makes me wonder if it's really true that less and less people play this AT.
Currently I am with a Elec/Ninjitsu project, trying to prove to my friend that a stalker can be a killing machine, but, looking to the numbers on mids, (I managed to make a build with 172 DPS on a Elec), between a stalker and a brute, it's WAAAY cheaper to make the brute version (Elec/shield in this case), and it would still outperform the stalker, both on AoE and ST damage.
Anyone else has the feeling stalkers are being left behind because the devs don't know what to do with the hide/AS system? Once out of hide, we are a scrapper with less damage. On an AV fight we can AS once, any AS after this is actually LOSS of DPS. Placate/AS barely burst the DPS, and wait all the 6 seconds to start other AS is a killer in our damage.
I am not aware of how stalkers are in pvp, but I assume they're still good, expecially with ROFLTHROWSHARKS. Maybe the issue is just pve wise. If you take for exemple an widow, it deals more DPS than a stalker, with alot of team buffs. A brute deals more damage than a stalker, and can tank. Remove threat is not stalkers main purpose anymore since any perma dom can lock a whole spawn with one click!
So... the main question of this post is:
Why do /YOU/ still play a stalker?
WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
My first guide, i15 plant/thorn dominator! Check it. NOW!