City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Feeling gimped? Maybe you are!

beyeajus

By beyeajus,
Posted on: 2009-10-21 04:08 in Stalkers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negate View Post
This is a stalker thread not a MM thread we're supposed to uplift new peeps and make them want to play stalkers not MM's or Corrs!
I'm just calling it how I see it - someone forgot to hand me blinders. Stalkers -can- be great on teams. They can also suck horribly. Just like every other AT, that's more dependant on the player than the character. But numerically, Stalkers can do better single-target DPS than Scrappers with a mid-large sized team while ignoring the guaranteed criticals and assuming the same attack chain (ie, no Assassin's Strike to get a huge boost out of the gate). As for AoE, now you're looking into powerset-by-powerset comparisons and specific builds, but generally speaking a Scrapper will do more AoE than a Stalker, and a Blaster will do more AoE than either (and often more than both put together).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negate View Post
Also Stalkers to me are much more fun them MM's I have yet to be able to lvl a MM past 15 w/o wanting to kill myself...but that's me.
I'm not disputing that Stalkers are a lot more fun; they are for me as well (I have 2 MMs currently, 7 Stalkers; any one of the Stalkers sees more playtime than both of the MMs combined). But for those who find it extremely fun to sit back and watch as their enemies melt before them, MMs will be more their style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
I'm just calling it how I see it - someone forgot to hand me blinders. Stalkers -can- be great on teams. They can also suck horribly. Just like every other AT, that's more dependant on the player than the character. But numerically, Stalkers can do better single-target DPS than Scrappers with a mid-large sized team while ignoring the guaranteed criticals and assuming the same attack chain (ie, no Assassin's Strike to get a huge boost out of the gate). As for AoE, now you're looking into powerset-by-powerset comparisons and specific builds, but generally speaking a Scrapper will do more AoE than a Stalker, and a Blaster will do more AoE than either (and often more than both put together).


I'm not disputing that Stalkers are a lot more fun; they are for me as well (I have 2 MMs currently, 7 Stalkers; any one of the Stalkers sees more playtime than both of the MMs combined). But for those who find it extremely fun to sit back and watch as their enemies melt before them, MMs will be more their style.
Ah ok. IT just seemed everyone was throwing poo at the Stalkers AT but I see what you're saying now. I like seeing Foes melt before my feet but I like to put forth some effort. I saw a Bot/FF on team not to long ago and seriously he didn't do anything....in fact he did have to do much b/c Ahrse Bot and CO. were uber all by themselves plus the tasty defense that goes along with FF. In fact Yesterday during a zombie Apocalypse I was next to Ahrse bot and I never felt safer...I just wish I could find a way for me to lvl a MM to 50 I have tried EVERYTHING...maybe this new MM Demon set will keep me for the long run.

The most fun I had MM wise was A Merc/Pois b/c I guess Merc is the most "gimped when it comes to dmg but even he is sitting right at lvl 34 as we speak"


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
Let me ask you a question. What is the point of a stalker?

Let me answer that question. The job of a stalker is to do hit and run damage. A stalker hides in the shadows, then pounces a single target, then fades away from view. Proper stalkers hit their prey as hard as they can, then book it to a safe hiding spot.

If you play a stalker right, you should have an experience of an expert assassin. Darting in and removing the lethal and annoying foes. Able to go anywhere and everywhere, past the massive defenses any enemy is able to provide.

***

Now, let me ask you another question. What is not a stalkers job?

Let me answer that question as well. A stalkers job is not provide consistent in-mob dps. A stalkers job is not to take aggro for a team, take an alpha strike, or remain in melee combat.

If you are playing a stalker as you would a scrapper, brute, or tank...

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG

This is one of the reasons why I, personally, loathe tools like MIDS. MIDS does not tell you how a class is supposed to be played, nor what the purpose of a class is.

Actually PLAYING THE GAME will tell you what a class feels like to play.

Of course the numbers on Stalker damage are going to come up shorter than scrapper or brute damage.

But, if you've actually played the game, you'd know that stalkers now get critical chances outside of hide while in a team. The larger the team, the more likely the stalker is to critical if the stalker winds up in a position where it has to do consistent or extended melee combat.

So the line you wrote here:



Is absolutely tripe. You do not understand the point of Hide and Assassin's Strike and the critical capabilities. The developers. DO!

This post is a perfect example of how not to play a Stalker.

IME, the more aggressive you play (within reason) the better your stalker becomes. That scaling crit rate from nearby teammates is su-wheeet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
IME, the more aggressive you play (within reason) the better your stalker becomes. That scaling crit rate from nearby teammates is su-wheeet.
Seconded. Sitting in melee and fighting it out contributes far more damage in the end then running away for another AS, and it's not like stalkes are super squishy so you have to run away to survive. My stalker (DM/EA/Lev) is pretty far from squishy, and this is without having taken weave or IOd for defense. I'll admit, he's got some bonus defense, but most of the IO defense bonus he has is because it was in the same set I wanted for some other reason (ie: Makos Bite and +damage.)

 

Posted

Thirded. At low levels, with a limited attack chain, sometimes hit and run is most of what you have. Around level 26 or so for a lot of powersets, that shifts as your attack chain gets full. You open with AS then stick around to kill what's left. It's far more efficient.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Finally got my lil aoe machine to level 37...
Elec/Ninj stalker, awesome build, softcap, 100% recharge.. 22% damage...

>.>

<.<

And suddenly my min/max kicked in... and I was back to reality... even with a 172 dps chain, the money I'd use to get her to it wasn't worth it....

I removed all LotG and epics from my dominator to put on her and on the last moment I saw my poor level 48 bots/traps there... alone.. no love...

Anyway.. now I have my AV soloer, able to face easily +2/x8, with def cap (both the mm and the pets!). And still effective on pvp!!

Damn, they need to balance this game... =/ I feel bad for leaving my stalker project because she would never be as good as a mastermind. More fun? Maybe, but the limitations are frustrating.

WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
My first guide, i15 plant/thorn dominator! Check it. NOW!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panikaze View Post
Damn, they need to balance this game... =/ I feel bad for leaving my stalker project because she would never be as good as a mastermind. More fun? Maybe, but the limitations are frustrating.
Why does that call for rebalancing the game? It's not like soloing AVs is actually useful. It's just neat to be able to do. Your MM is good at it because you have massive -regen debuffs, which are one of the most powerful tools available for soloing a large hard target.

Balance does not suggest that every build, AT or character be as good at every task as every other.

I won't claim that Stalkers have an outstanding place in the key set of roles people look for a character to fill in this game, but that's not a problem unique to Stalkers. They're essentially what was originally a PvP-centric AT tweaked to be viable in PvE. They're intended to be played because they're functional and different than the alternatives. If they don't do what you want to achieve in the game, it's OK if you don't play them.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Why does that call for rebalancing the game? It's not like soloing AVs is actually useful. It's just neat to be able to do. Your MM is good at it because you have massive -regen debuffs, which are one of the most powerful tools available for soloing a large hard target.

Balance does not suggest that every build, AT or character be as good at every task as every other.

I won't claim that Stalkers have an outstanding place in the key set of roles people look for a character to fill in this game, but that's not a problem unique to Stalkers. They're essentially what was originally a PvP-centric AT tweaked to be viable in PvE. They're intended to be played because they're functional and different than the alternatives. If they don't do what you want to achieve in the game, it's OK if you don't play them.
I've killed many Elite Bosses and some EB's with my stalker with just SO's. Mind you it took a while lol.


 

Posted

I guess I'm the oddball or exception to the Stalker rules. I built my Stalker purely for team and AoE ability. I soft-capped my defenses and tried to get as much +recharge out of the IO sets as I could without getting purples. Heck with my build I took over as lead Brute several times on missions, or I'd wander off myself to a different part of the map and destroy several mobs while I waited for the team to catch up to me. If done right Stalkers can be very powerful AT's.

Here is my build that I made:

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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Thirded. At low levels, with a limited attack chain, sometimes hit and run is most of what you have. Around level 26 or so for a lot of powersets, that shifts as your attack chain gets full. You open with AS then stick around to kill what's left. It's far more efficient.
Yup. The only Stalker I've been able to stick with is my Spines/Ninja who most certainly does not play hit and run.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
Let me ask you a question. What is the point of a stalker?

Let me answer that question. The job of a stalker is to do hit and run damage. A stalker hides in the shadows, then pounces a single target, then fades away from view. Proper stalkers hit their prey as hard as they can, then book it to a safe hiding spot.

If you play a stalker right, you should have an experience of an expert assassin. Darting in and removing the lethal and annoying foes. Able to go anywhere and everywhere, past the massive defenses any enemy is able to provide.

***

Now, let me ask you another question. What is not a stalkers job?

Let me answer that question as well. A stalkers job is not provide consistent in-mob dps. A stalkers job is not to take aggro for a team, take an alpha strike, or remain in melee combat.

If you are playing a stalker as you would a scrapper, brute, or tank...

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG

This is one of the reasons why I, personally, loathe tools like MIDS. MIDS does not tell you how a class is supposed to be played, nor what the purpose of a class is.

Actually PLAYING THE GAME will tell you what a class feels like to play.

Of course the numbers on Stalker damage are going to come up shorter than scrapper or brute damage.

But, if you've actually played the game, you'd know that stalkers now get critical chances outside of hide while in a team. The larger the team, the more likely the stalker is to critical if the stalker winds up in a position where it has to do consistent or extended melee combat.

So the line you wrote here:



Is absolutely tripe. You do not understand the point of Hide and Assassin's Strike and the critical capabilities. The developers. DO!
You are shrill and annoying.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiraku View Post
Actually, Stalkers are quite capable of remaining in melee combat. They don't hit and run. They hit first, then keep hitting. The "book it to a safe hiding spot" is unnecessary because the safest spot is amongst a pile of your foes' remains.
^ This
Gimped = my Dual Blades/Dark Armour Brute, soon to be deleted. +0 x2 Longbow mobs chew him up and spit him out...at level 32. The claws/ninja version of the same character is the one doing the chewing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Eh, Stalkers are just fine. They're one of those ATs that is much maligned but not for particularly good reason anymore (definitely needed help before Castle's buffs, but they were hardly terrible then: people like to trump up difficulties).

AS is a nice burst of damage at the start, and the debuff it provides is helpful solo and for a team. Stalkers are perfectly fine staying and "scrapping" after that point, and they do have the good ability to crit everyone has mentioned. It's also easy to drop a Placate in the middle of a fight for an easy critical, etc., which I know my Scrappers wish they could do.

Anyone playing or talking like a Stalker needs to AS and then Hide is playing in the old days before the buff (and not necessarily even then: Stalkers were not doing so badly that they couldn't stay and scrap), and perpetuating a bad playstyle. You obviously can run that way if you want to solo, but it is slower, and a team will be justifiably annoyed if all you do is hide and AS... that's a lot of damage and mitigation you are not dishing out.

Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
Let me ask you a question. What is the point of a stalker?

Let me answer that question. The job of a stalker is to do hit and run damage. A stalker hides in the shadows, then pounces a single target, then fades away from view. Proper stalkers hit their prey as hard as they can, then book it to a safe hiding spot.

If you play a stalker right, you should have an experience of an expert assassin. Darting in and removing the lethal and annoying foes. Able to go anywhere and everywhere, past the massive defenses any enemy is able to provide.

***

Now, let me ask you another question. What is not a stalkers job?

Let me answer that question as well. A stalkers job is not provide consistent in-mob dps. A stalkers job is not to take aggro for a team, take an alpha strike, or remain in melee combat.

If you are playing a stalker as you would a scrapper, brute, or tank...

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG

This is one of the reasons why I, personally, loathe tools like MIDS. MIDS does not tell you how a class is supposed to be played, nor what the purpose of a class is.

Actually PLAYING THE GAME will tell you what a class feels like to play.

Of course the numbers on Stalker damage are going to come up shorter than scrapper or brute damage.

But, if you've actually played the game, you'd know that stalkers now get critical chances outside of hide while in a team. The larger the team, the more likely the stalker is to critical if the stalker winds up in a position where it has to do consistent or extended melee combat.

So the line you wrote here:



Is absolutely tripe. You do not understand the point of Hide and Assassin's Strike and the critical capabilities. The developers. DO!
This is one of the exact reasons many people simply REFUSED to team with stalkers for the longest time in this game. Most early stalkers simply used this "hit and run" tactic and pissed off most other players because the stalker was doing very little to contribute to the overall team effort. Yeah...sure....you just wiped out a pesky minion or LT...or nearly wiped out that annoying boss. But what did you do afterwards? You hauled *** to the other side of the map while your hide re-engaged so you could come back and AS something else...which on a good team...is pretty much already gonna be floored by the time you got your butt back to begin with. FAIL!

I've tried a few stalkers during my time...and thus far i've truly enjoyed playing one. My electric/electric. Post lvl 32 (33+ really after getting a few slots into lightning rod) I RARELY every break out my AS. Don't really need to all that much. With a good grouping of mobs...BU+Lightning Rod+Thunderstrike...most everything is either dead or dying. And more so when on a good sized team and seeing CRITICAL on pretty much everything in thunder strike's AOE. Anything that's left over, i stay and fight. I finish my battles...i don't run from them and make everyone else do the work. I am an assassin...and assassins do not allow his enemies to live to see tomorrow.

So please...stop perpetuating this false assumption that Stalkers are "one-hit wonders" that should only AS things then run for the hills because they are not viable or should not engage in sustained combat.

RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny.
That'll do, pig. That'll do.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaikenX View Post
This is one of the exact reasons many people simply REFUSED to team with stalkers for the longest time in this game.
Really, I think it's why so many refuse to play stalkers too. They think, walking into the AT that it's just a ganker one-trick pony and so brush it aside.

The only real complaint I feel that has merit amonst those that cannot play stalkers among the melee ATs (talking about those that will play Scrappers and Brutes, not the MM/troller only aficionados) is that they aren't survivable enough. And while that may be true, it's not so glaring a hole that it can't be overcome simply with an adjustment to playstyle. Basically, they don't want to play smart. They want to play stupid. And that's fine. I enjoy mindless smash every now and then but it's not the AT isn't survivable enough but some players can't (or won't) cope to a little strategy.

 

Posted

Quote:
They're essentially what was originally a PvP-centric AT tweaked to be viable in PvE.
I always thought it was basically just the D&D guy's--Zeb Cook had more influence on CoV than Statesman, right?--porting a D&D rogue into CoH, but he didn't realize the game didn't have Skills. Stalkers would be a lot cooler if they could lay traps and use poison and stuff.

I love my DM/Nin, but nobody else does. A lot of stink is still attached to the stalker AT because Stalkers tended to be parasitic groupmates, they didn't do anything and expected a team to level them up so they could one-shot in lolpvp (man, that's some GREAT PVP right there!) and from Castle refusing to buff a severely and demonstrably WEAKSAUCE AT because of lolpvp until he created VEATS, which would've completely eclipsed the Stalker's role of being a stealth and crit specialist. Banes and Widows are way better than old stalkers were.

 

Posted

I'm gonna throw in here. I recently took a claws/wp to 50 and pretty much loved every second of it. It's not probably not top tier and I really don't care. I played it, and I continue to play the stalker 'cause it's fun. Because it's versatile.

Solo, I'm doing hit and fade, or stick and move a lot. I go in, BU & AS, maybe use focus for knock up on the primary target or troublesome secondary, and shred shred shred until things are dead or things don't go so well for me and then I bail.

Teaming...wow. The crit's stack up constantly. And there's nothing like throwing a BU'd shockwave into a huge mob from hidden status and watching a wave of orange numbers and "CRITICAL!" blot out the screen. Pure glee. Not to mention as often as not I've been the last person standing in a group - throwing what passes for soft controls (KB, K-Up, Placates, etc). This isn't even to get into being able to stealth missions (and particularly for myself, since I've got TP friend - bank mish's best friend).

I like stalkers because while they're a melee class, they aren't a freaking meatshield on autopilot. You have to think, you have to pick your targets, and you have to keep on your toes. Sure, you can stay in the mob brawl and "Scrap" your way out in most occasions. I don't mind the challenge and I'm not thinking "oh gee I'm only geting eleventy-six point twenty-foo DPS - my scrapper does better" (not to mention that until GR comes out its not like you have a choice to play a stalker on blueside, or a scrapper redside). I'm playing to have fun, and I've found that the stalker provides that in spades.

My scrapper, on the other hand, annoys the hell out of me. The scrapper might mathematically do more damage or hit crits with a more consistent basis, but I simply don't like playing the scrapper because it doesn't speak to me. So my scrapper is a low-priority toon for my playtime (maybe once or twice a month), while I come back to my stalker several times a week.

Also, Stalkers as parasites? Get over it. We're a LONG way from the old lolstalker days.

"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge

 

Posted

Yup, Stalkers can be quite strong. My Nin/Nin isn't all the the way IO'd yet (but does have some extra defense), but he was basically taking the alpha and semi-tanking for my medium-sized team the other day. We had five people on the team, but one of them kept going afk, and the other one WAS being a lame stalker and scouting the map and doing nothing whenever I didn't remind him to be fighting.

So basically, I took the alpha for a five man mob and did my best to tank for the teammates that were on the team, as the only other regulars on the team were two Corrupters.

It was a horrible group to play with, since it took the three of us longer to clear the mobs than it would have if the two leeches were helping, but it does show that Stalkers can stick it out in a long fight. Ninjitsu is a pretty strong secondary, but the argument still stands.

Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by twelfth View Post
The scrapper might mathematically do more damage or hit crits with a more consistent basis, but I simply don't like playing the scrapper because it doesn't speak to me.
The Stalker hits crits with a more consistent basis, pretty much always. The Scrapper mathematically will do more damage solo and on either small or scattered teams, and has a much better chance to do good AoE (but the AoE capabilities of Stalkers are understated more often than not - there are only two sets that don't have any).

And yes, Stalkers are different than the other melee ATs because they require a little (not much) thought to play - one of the reasons I find them fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

I'm currently rocking a spines/regen stalker, and I mean ROCKING. I started a PUG team this morning with him in P.O for the atlas/KR bank mishs. The widow on the team had the atlas one, I had the KR one.

We had 2 brutes, 1 widow, 1 dom, and me.

when we got to the bank, the long bow killed the widow first, we had the common "everybody faceplant to get used to the team play" crap.

Here's a funny part, the widow quit because it had to break itself out of jail, we were breaking ourselves out of jail too....lol.

TO THE BANK! I asked the team (2 brutes, one dom) if they mind if I run downstairs to wreck the safe and get the cash to spawn the hero, no problem.

I run downstairs, hidden, and start wailing on the safe door, then the mobs too as they notice my actions. Wiped them out, grabbed the cash, ran back upstairs just in time to save one of the brute's a**es as the spine scrapper hero was about to waste them.

during the animation time of spine burst, I tossed that brute a green, then killed the hero.

WOOT! Mission accomplished!

This is why I love playing a stalker.