Please change Shockwave for claws
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-10-12 08:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I for one wish they'd change all knock down powers to be knockback, or at the very least, change all the ones that were originally kb and were lowered back into kb.
KB is superior to KD in every way and if you can't do higher damage with KB and be safer then you need to lrn2ply.
Is that about the jist of what you guys are saying?
heh... there's an idea I could get behind. Fine.. change ALL kBack to kDown so that you can only get kBack again by slotting for it.
But then add extra damage from kBack like you got in the original Champions PnP game. Knock someone into a wall 3 feet behind them? HUGE extra damage. No wall at all? Just a little extra from road burn.
This, of course, will never happen, just as shockwave being changed to kDown will never happen, but it amused me enough to type it out.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
heh... there's an idea I could get behind. Fine.. change ALL kBack to kDown so that you can only get kBack again by slotting for it.
But then add extra damage from kBack like you got in the original Champions PnP game. Knock someone into a wall 3 feet behind them? HUGE extra damage. No wall at all? Just a little extra from road burn. This, of course, will never happen, just as shockwave being changed to kDown will never happen, but it amused me enough to type it out. |
The thing is, KD can easily be turned into KB with one single slot. And I've had the great pleasure of teaming with people that do that, including Dragon's Tail.
So, it would be nice if they created an IO that reduced the mag instead of increased it. This also puts the burdon on people that don't want knockback to sacrafice recharge or damage, etc. Of course, as I've said in other threads, I believe it would make some sets overpowered. That belief though does show my bias. (I still wouldn't slot it in Bonfire, even though it would make bonfire soooooo overpowered. Ping pong on my fire/storm is just too much fun).
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Mmmm, just add Sched B damage to all KB enhancers! |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
heh... there's an idea I could get behind. Fine.. change ALL kBack to kDown so that you can only get kBack again by slotting for it.
But then add extra damage from kBack like you got in the original Champions PnP game. Knock someone into a wall 3 feet behind them? HUGE extra damage. No wall at all? Just a little extra from road burn. This, of course, will never happen, just as shockwave being changed to kDown will never happen, but it amused me enough to type it out. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I've only read about the first three pages. And I think I know how to solve the problem of KB for those who hate it, just like me.
Don't take it :P I've skipped Shockwave on many of my Claws/ that I've leveled up and even on my Claws/Regen.
Like Bill said, it is fun to use. 
But I found I only used it when I just wanted some fun, I never really used it on teams.
And not taking it, doesn't hurt you. It doesn't. I have never felt like I lost any survivability if I skipped Shockwave.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
If I were a claws brute I'd take electric fences.
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The Devs should scan through the forums, find everyone who makes this suggestion, and take one slot away from each of their attack powers permanently. Any argument against this suggestion holds no ground in my eyes, since they can make up for the lost slot by clever use of their remaining slots.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
I will give this a yes every time I see it suggested because of the simple fact that it DOES NOT take away any tactics. All you have to do is slot it with ONE kb enhancement to change it back to kb. Any arguement against this change holds no ground in my eyes.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Gotta agree with this much. The knockback is great for setting things up for an Eviserate on as many as possible.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Using the knockback to position the mobs is a key element in how I use the power. Push them into a corner and then use Spin and Eviscerate on the tightly packed groups.
I find knockback in this power neither pointless nor annoying. |
And it isn't even much of a penalty on my Claws/WP scrapper. While they're on their backs they aren't doing damage and the breather gives me enough time to run after them (back into RTTC range) and line up an Eviserate and Spin to finish them.
That all said if it was changed to knockdown I'd be delighted. But it's not too much of a drawback that it's KB at the mo, certainly doesn't make it useless for a Claws/WP or Claws/Elec (it's a lifesaver on the Claws/Elec in fact, and I'll be picking up Fences at 41 anyway if I just want to use it as an AOE with no knockback).
i tried SW but didn't care too much for it. but i an not in favor of the -KB IO idea because of what it would do to other powers out there ( bonfire for example).
my problem with the power was more that it was a cone anyways , Claws is not hurt damage wise skipping shockwave. i use Follow up-focus-spin and eviserate -repeat .
With any recharge at all you can pretty much fight without pause, and setting up a cone takes time that i didn't wanna take for play style reasons.
I'm sure its nifty at times with the KB, but that's about all it -just nifty
i think making it a KD would be fine, since there is a good KB set that provides damage , acc and KB , so it could be put back to the way it is now easily
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Because lethal (and smashing) are easy to justify critters having resistance to; they're simple physical trauma, and just about any sort of armoring will afford some protection from that.|
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
I never really understood why there are so many highly lethal resistant mobs but almost none vulnerable to lethal.
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You could always go farm Carnies
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Or CoT. I love letting rip on those poncing mages with some S/L destruction, especially on teams |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Because lethal (and smashing) are easy to justify critters having resistance to; they're simple physical trauma, and just about any sort of armoring will afford some protection from that.
You could always go farm Carnies |
Once you get past the damnable Ghost maps, where EVERYTHING is S/L resistant...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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From a roleplay standpoint that makes sense - from a game mechanics standpoint however I find it extremely annoying, especially with the preponderance of lethal only sets (and many AT's that have almost NOTHING but lethal - like scrappers until recently). |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Because lethal (and smashing) are easy to justify critters having resistance to; they're simple physical trauma, and just about any sort of armoring will afford some protection from that.
You could always go farm Carnies |
Most PnP RPG's I have played that try to balance damage types make lethal more effective if you don't have armor - which justifies the reduced effectiveness against armor (I am thinking gurps here specifically) which has always felt reasonable to me. After all, there is a reason knives are considered deadly weapons more often than a club. If CoX lethal attacks did more damage or there was a reasonable balance of lethal vulnerable to lethal resistant enemies I would consider it ok - but throwing out a RP justification for what almost feels like a nerf doesn't work for me.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Well, let's consider the Scrapper sets that deal lethal damage:
Broadsword: T9 with increased chance to crit, several -def powers
Claws: Higher Damage/Endurance than most sets, decent AoE
Dual Blades: Combos (though I'm not really sure that's worth the lethal from your perspective, since the combos can be difficult to pull off sometimes, and require specific power picks to make available, and all 9 powers to make all combos available)
Katana: See Broadsword
Spines: Toxic DoT
So the lethal sets do get things to help out. You might argue it's not enough, and that's fair, but it's not like they've got nothing.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I've never understood why all KB powers couldn't have the following:|
Originally Posted by Liquid
I asked Castle about this when Inventions were introduced. He said he'd check to see if it was possible, but he didn't know if it was. I never heard anything else, so I'd assume it's not.
Because of the varying magnitudes on KB powers, you'd probably have to have an enhancement that set the KB value instead of just reducing it by some percentage. And that may not be possible. |
.67 KB, ignores buffs and enhancements;
[X] KB
Where [X] is whatever KB the power has now. Then you have a -KB IO that reduces the KB magnitude to zero. Power then does KD, because the .67 isn't enhanceable. Anyone know why that wouldn't work?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I have no idea of the context of this comment, but this doesn't seem fair to me. Sure the lethal sets get secondary effects, but then so does DM, Elm, FM and MA. I think the real question is what do the lethal sets get ON TOP of the secondary effects all sets get.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Well, let's consider the Scrapper sets that deal lethal damage:
Broadsword: T9 with increased chance to crit, several -def powers Claws: Higher Damage/Endurance than most sets, decent AoE Dual Blades: Combos (though I'm not really sure that's worth the lethal from your perspective, since the combos can be difficult to pull off sometimes, and require specific power picks to make available, and all 9 powers to make all combos available) Katana: See Broadsword Spines: Toxic DoT So the lethal sets do get things to help out. You might argue it's not enough, and that's fair, but it's not like they've got nothing. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Because then, no matter what, said KB power is guaranteed to at least KD the target, regardless of the resistance (purple patch or natural) of the target. Of course, outright protection supersedes that but anyway.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I've never understood why all KB powers couldn't have the following:
.67 KB, ignores buffs and enhancements; [X] KB |
As for why it wouldn't work... There doesn't exist "negative" enhancement and there doesn't exist "additive" magnitude. Domination simply acts as a flag that causes a power to use a second mez magnitude. Procs are like a secondary effect that is added on--you don't actually change the existing effect, there just is another one applied. And again, there doesn't exist active "subtractive" magnitude (reactive in protection but anyway).
As for a possible workaround...have a proc with an instantaneous bonus of unresistable KB resistance that applies before any KD/KB is added and such that it wears off in 1 second or whatever the slowest example happens to be. But yeah...there's a lot more problems associated with that.
And god forbid people learn to make use of KB rather than raging out about it and/or instantly respeccing when they can't handle it.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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How do the knockback enhancements work then? Aren't they adding knockback mag?
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Originally Posted by LostHalo
As for why it wouldn't work... There doesn't exist "negative" enhancement and there doesn't exist "additive" magnitude. Domination simply acts as a flag that causes a power to use a second mez magnitude. Procs are like a secondary effect that is added on--you don't actually change the existing effect, there just is another one applied. And again, there doesn't exist active "subtractive" magnitude (reactive in protection but anyway).
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I don't think it's that people can't handle it. It's that KB needs to be practiced. Most secondary effects are unreservedly useful or at least not detrimental. Take my BS Scrapper's -defense. With all the accuracy enhancement and +to-hit I have, it's pretty useless to me, but I can just ignore it. KB isn't that way. |
Originally Posted by LostHalo
And god forbid people learn to make use of KB rather than raging out about it and/or instantly respeccing when they can't handle it.
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Personally, I think KB is peachy on specific powers (like Shockwave), for example. Shockwave is a good power, but you can live without it. It's not critical to a claws player.
Energy Blasters or Peacebringers tend to have to put up with it in every other attack, which is annoying. Although I do like Solar Flare on my PB.
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| As for why it wouldn't work... There doesn't exist "negative" enhancement and there doesn't exist "additive" magnitude. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
EDIT: Ah thought he/she was talking about lethal melee sets in general
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If it is changed to knockdown instead of knockback I will be forced to slot a KB IO for knockback. That no longer allows me to slot 5 Posi's Blast for the recharge enhancement and the Force Feedback Chance for +Recharge IO, which is exactly how my Shockwave is slotted. |
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Okay Im gonna have to get an example for the enhancement arguement. Looking on mids, shockwave allows two IO set types for enhancing, ranged AoE and Knockback. Ranged aoe (excluding air burst) sets share a sixth enhancement bonus of toxic resistance. Toxic resistance does not make or break a toon, so that cant be an issue.
Now I know, that still means you may have to add another slot to the power (if your making the arguement for 5) in order to fit in that kb. That also means though that you can use a say, dam/kb enhancement, making your attack do more damage. So even though we made you strip a whole single enhancement from a different power, it was not "wasted" making the power what it used to be, it still enhanced it in another department. I dont think you can definitively say kb is better than kd or vise versa. One could easily argue a good defense is an active offense, and the kb knocked mobs out of their next attacks range or AoE, allowing them to live to deal more damage. One could say the kb knocked the mobs out of their say, Invincibility's zone, lowering their defense and allowing more attacks to hit them. Too situational to call. Thats why Im all for giving the player the choice. |
So, no, leave it the hell alone.
Also, Carnies are weak against lethal. Someone mentioned there is nothing that is, and they are.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I am all for changing Shockwave from Knockback to Knockdown.
Wild Cards
@BLASTWAVE
@BLASTWAVE2
I'll take the -KB enhancer if it is offered but I'm not gonna cry one way or another.
Would be interesting if it was possible to offer the power twice in the power tree, one with and one without, each locking you out of the other when picked. Or if the power customization and coloring thing let you pick kb/no-kb at the tailor somehow.
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Alternatively, you could change all (some/most?) attacks which have KB to have no inherent KB, but allow them to accept KB enhancements. KB enhancements could then enhance a powers damage and have a 100% chance to proc x KB. KB enhancers could come in a variety of flavors (0.4 mag, 0.8 Mag, 2.2 Mag, etc./whatever). The only technical hurdle would be making sure multiple procs stacked (I know KB mag can stack from multiple sources, but I am not sure if the system handles it well enough to be usable on purpose).
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Mmmm, just add Sched B damage to all KB enhancers!
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I love the "I can't use my knockback effectively, change it so I dont have to learn" attitude found in this thread.
It's a very simple solution.
If you want things knocked back, use Shockwave.
If you don't want things knocked back, don't use Shockwave.
If you despise knockback that much, SKIP Shockwave. It is not the be all, end all power of Claws, you can build a perfectly effective character without it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Changing it from knock to stun would constitute a secondary effect change.