Please change Shockwave for claws
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-10-12 08:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Just FYI: my opinions on the detriments of AoE KB are almost exclusively team-related. You primarily solo, so I have no question that the KB has very little negative impact on you.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Bad wording on my part. Against 54s, your damage output drops enough that the KB becoming KD is acceptable. I don't agree with Brutes having having a higher knock AT modifier.
I know this, though: the knockback in SW isn't stopping my claws/ea from tearing through spawns with all three AoEs. |
Also, I totally appreciate that you simply like seeing your foes knocked back. I only argue against those who would claim that the KB is better overall, performance wise, than KD.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
KB is better mitigation than KD. KBed opponents take longer to recover which grants better mitigation in the form of less time for that opponent to attack.
Quote:
This is a good point. I personally don't think it makes up the difference in being able to knock everyone down as soon as the power comes up under any and all circumstances without having to reposition to prevent scatter or alerting other spawns, but it's a good point nonetheless.
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
KB is better mitigation than KD. KBed opponents take longer to recover which grants better mitigation in the form of less time for that opponent to attack.
|
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
The only possible response to that is: You must not know how to max out your character very well.| As RapidBrian said, you could just slot knockback. It wouldn't affect your performance at all, as he said. You'd still be maxed out for damage and set bonuses, like he said. If slotting one knockback destroys your toon, then you were doing something wrong, Bill. |
There WILL be a loss in order to slot for KB. It IS a problem. Your acceptance of that fact is irrelevant.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Slight positioning should be used either way since SW is a cone.
|
Originally Posted by Liquid
This is a good point. I personally don't think it makes up the difference in being able to knock everyone down as soon as the power comes up under any and all circumstances without having to reposition to prevent scatter or alerting other spawns, but it's a good point nonetheless.
|
Quote:
This is NOT correct.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
KB is better mitigation than KD. KBed opponents take longer to recover which grants better mitigation in the form of less time for that opponent to attack.
|
It is true for some secondary sets but for some other sets the knockback is actually lowering the survivability and isnt migitation at all....
WP ----> knocking mobs out of Rttc is bad for survivability
Inv ----> knocking mobs out of Invincibility is bad for survivability
DA ----> knocking mobs out of the Opressive gloom, Cloak of fear or Dark regeneration is bad for survivability
Elec -----> knocking mobs out of end drain and - end lightning field willlet mobs regain end faster and therfore you get attacked more
EA -----> knocking mobs out of end drain will lower the heal by a huge amount and lower survivability
That leaves SR, Stone and FA the only sets not being impacted in a negative way by KB instead of KD.
4 sets to 3 where KB is worse for survivability than KD
I cant see how KB is any better for migitation than KD, those 2 more secs the mobs are flying doesnt outwight the negative side effects listed above.
Quote:
All cones require slight positioning, yes. But because of the KB, you often need to move more than slightly to aim them into a corner or keep them from getting within aggro range of another spawn. I'm not saying that the repositioning is a big deal, just that it's something you would deal with less if it did KD.
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Slight positioning should be used either way since SW is a cone.
|
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
SR needs to be missed to survive. Enemies flying around aren't attacking.
Regen needs time for regen to function. See above.
FA needs time for HF to recycle. See above.
While what you've stated is true for the other sets, they ALL could use the extra time for regen and click heals as well.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
That's why playing intelligently is key. Positioning your KB for max effect will produce great result. To me, you are just looking fo rthis game to become even easier, rather than making a conscience effort on what/where you are attacking. |
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
This is NOT correct.
It is true for some secondary sets but for some other sets the knockback is actually lowering the survivability and isnt migitation at all.... WP ----> knocking mobs out of Rttc is bad for survivability Inv ----> knocking mobs out of Invincibility is bad for survivability DA ----> knocking mobs out of the Opressive gloom, Cloak of fear or Dark regeneration is bad for survivability Elec -----> knocking mobs out of end drain and - end lightning field willlet mobs regain end faster and therfore you get attacked more EA -----> knocking mobs out of end drain will lower the heal by a huge amount and lower survivability That leaves SR, Stone and FA the only sets not being impacted in a negative way by KB instead of KD. 4 sets to 3 where KB is worse for survivability than KD I cant see how KB is any better for migitation than KD, those 2 more secs the mobs are flying doesnt outwight the negative side effects listed above. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Liquid
All cones require slight positioning, yes. But because of the KB, you often need to move more than slightly to aim them into a corner or keep them from getting within aggro range of another spawn. I'm not saying that the repositioning is a big deal, just that it's something you would deal with less if it did KD.
|
Quote:
Check my post above again and tell me where i am wrong when i say that 4 out of 7 sets are less survivable cause of knockback instead of knockdown.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
SR needs to be missed to survive. Enemies flying around aren't attacking.
Regen needs time for regen to function. See above. FA needs time for HF to recycle. See above. While what you've stated is true for the other sets, they ALL could use the extra time for regen and click heals as well. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
Check my post above again and tell me where i am wrong when i say that 4 out of 7 sets are less survivable cause of knockback instead of knockdown.
|
They are only less survivable if you play like a button smashing ape and aren't aware of your surroundings.
Quote:
Really, this debate will never have a solution. It puts players who just play the game using all its variances at odds with the players that just want to tab and click. Basically, hearders vs not-as-much-a-hearder. I don't really care anymore though. If KB were changed to KD, I would be really disappointed in the game's direction but then so far I haven't been issued a major disappointment and it's bound to happen sometime the longer I play.|
It is true for some secondary sets but for some other sets the knockback is actually lowering the survivability and isnt migitation at all.... WP ----> knocking mobs out of Rttc is bad for survivability Inv ----> knocking mobs out of Invincibility is bad for survivability DA ----> knocking mobs out of the Opressive gloom, Cloak of fear or Dark regeneration is bad for survivability |
As for KB not mitigating anything. *THAT IS WRONG* and you should feel bad for thinking it does.
If using KB in all instances somehow caused you to take direct damage, *then* it mitigates nothing. If you can't be arsed with adjusting your position to get some enemies in your buff auras then why are you playing the game at all? It's like playing a fighting game but you can't be bothered pushing buttons to beat the other player...Play the game, people!
Quote:
I'm not talking about the initial positioning. I'm talking about later uses of the power on the same spawn. If you knock them one way out in the open, you're probably going to want to knock them the other way afterwards.
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Not true. I position for cones regardless of KD or KB and it takes no longer than positioning for KB than it does for KD (hint: while I run to the mob I've already decided my positioning).
|
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
They are only less survivable if you play like a button smashing ape and aren't aware of your surroundings.
|
Not everyone wants to spend half of a mission deciding how to position themselves before attacking.
That must be very effective in teams, by the time you decided how to poistion yourself to get the "great effect" (which honestly i NEVER seen), the rest of the team most likely killed the group already or, if you are the first to attack and therefore not positioned in the best way there is, you will scatter the mobs and make the team angry.
There IS a reason knockback ISNT liked in most teams.
Quote:
Not sure, never had to hit the same mob with SW twice as of yet.
|
Originally Posted by Liquid
I'm not talking about the initial positioning. I'm talking about later uses of the power on the same spawn. If you knock them one way out in the open, you're probably going to want to knock them the other way afterwards.
|
Quote:
I NEVER said KB isnt migitating anything, maybe if you read my post again you will notice i said, in case of the mentioned secondary sets KB is migitating way less than KD, cause the additional 2 secs you get for mobs flying indtead of just knocked down dont outwight the negative effects the knocked back mobs have to several very important secondary powers of the sets.
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
As for KB not mitigating anything. *THAT IS WRONG* and you should feel bad for thinking it does.
|
Okay Im gonna have to get an example for the enhancement arguement. Looking on mids, shockwave allows two IO set types for enhancing, ranged AoE and Knockback. Ranged aoe (excluding air burst) sets share a sixth enhancement bonus of toxic resistance. Toxic resistance does not make or break a toon, so that cant be an issue.
Now I know, that still means you may have to add another slot to the power (if your making the arguement for 5) in order to fit in that kb. That also means though that you can use a say, dam/kb enhancement, making your attack do more damage. So even though we made you strip a whole single enhancement from a different power, it was not "wasted" making the power what it used to be, it still enhanced it in another department.
I dont think you can definitively say kb is better than kd or vise versa. One could easily argue a good defense is an active offense, and the kb knocked mobs out of their next attacks range or AoE, allowing them to live to deal more damage. One could say the kb knocked the mobs out of their say, Invincibility's zone, lowering their defense and allowing more attacks to hit them. Too situational to call.
Thats why Im all for giving the player the choice.
Depending upon the spawn scatter initially, shockwave can be used to bring them closer together evenwithout terrain.
Its easy to demonstrate and hard to describe, but I'll have a go. In a group thats very loose, and a bit all over the place, you can happily push one or two folks towards the rest of them. All it takes is chosing an angle and an awareness of the range of the power.
Heck even the range awareness isn't that necessary, if you target from out of the powers range and run in.
Quote:
You are wrong, because again knockback can be used to clump critters together into a situation that you then get better survivability due to more critters in range.| Check my post above again and tell me where i am wrong when i say that 4 out of 7 sets are less survivable cause of knockback instead of knockdown |
Use knockback willy-nilly from the center of a spawn, and yes its going to cause issues. Used intelligently it is a huge boon to personal and team survivability.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
It doesn't take half a mission. I've already decided as I run to the next mob. But this gives me insight on your position. |
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
Not everyone wants to spend half of a mission deciding how to position themselves before attacking.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
That must be very effective in teams, by the time you decided how to poistion yourself to get the "great effect" (which honestly i NEVER seen), the rest of the team most likely killed the group already or, if you are the first to attack and therefore not positioned in the best way there is, you will scatter the mobs and make the team angry.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
There IS a reason knockback ISNT liked in most teams.
|
Quote:
Show me the math that displays the exact gain/loss of keeping foes in RttC or Invincibility or Lightning Field or whatever versus tossing them around the room.|
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
Check my post above again and tell me where i am wrong when i say that 4 out of 7 sets are less survivable cause of knockback instead of knockdown.
|
Be sure to take into account regen from health/fasthealing/energize/dull pain/etc and don't forget to account for all the time enemies aren't attacking as they get stuck in walls/trees/holes in geometry and the extra time not attacking while in transit from the knock to the ready position.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
On outdoor maps, I just keep knocking them into the next spawn. |
Originally Posted by Liquid
I'm not talking about the initial positioning. I'm talking about later uses of the power on the same spawn. If you knock them one way out in the open, you're probably going to want to knock them the other way afterwards.
|
Be well, people of CoH.
<QR>
I can get behind changing the KB to KD. Sure, I'm pretty decent at controlling Knockback but sometimes I forget or there's nowhere to push them (ie, open fields, rooms, etc)
Seven years of heroism. Seven years of friendships. Seven years of saving the world. Seven years of virtuous selflessness.
You will return, for you are the mighty City of Paragon, the City of Heroes.
Quote:
Bill, PLEASE do not think I agree with the person I quoted. I kept repeating "as he said" in an attempt to show that I don't agree with it.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The only possible response to that is: You must not know how to max out your character very well.
There WILL be a loss in order to slot for KB. It IS a problem. Your acceptance of that fact is irrelevant. |
Read my post with LOTS of sarcasm.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
If you're implying that they're all dead before SW recharges, then I'd rephrase this as "I never get to hit the same mob with SW twice." |
Originally Posted by Clouded
Not sure, never had to hit the same mob with SW twice as of yet.
|
Also, it means we're not playing the game the same way. I'd raise the difficulty if my team's spawns were dying in under 8 seconds. I understand then why you prefer the KB-- if you want to kill spawns that fast, then the KB is better for alpha mitigation.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
I really wonder what % of missions are actually outdoor. Even outdoors there is frequently something to push groups against
I'm not talking about outdoor missions exclusively, though their frequency does increase dramatically after 40.
Knocking them into corners is awesome, but the situation doesn't present itself that often. I am confident in saying this particularly because I also have a Grav controller, and if corners were even in a 80' range without a spawn being between your spawn and said corner that often, I'd be able to use Wormhole far more. There's a power I'd kill to have KD instead of KB on. Nothing like a Controller that can only use their secondary mitigation under certain circumstances without pissing off the team.
Here's a question that would explain our different experiences: do you pull/herd groups near corners so you can use them?
Note that I'm not pushing for Shockwave to get KB anymore. I'm just interested in understanding the perspective of those that actually prefer the KB over KD. Because I see the advantages to KD (being able to use it from any angle, as often as you like) dramatically outweighing the advantages to KB (pushing them into a corner to increase the number of foes hit by small AoEs), unless you always pull or herd to corners.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)