And no one said your good faith effort was not taken in good faith. I have dyslexia. I know many people that have far more severe forms than I have. What is causing the response you are getting now is your very negative and derisive response that proper communication is about respect, not your own use of language.
We object to your content, not your form.
Quote:
To me the idea that someone with poor grammar is disrespectful because of poor grammar is wrong.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
And no one said your good faith effort was not taken in good faith. I have dyslexia. I know many people that have far more severe forms than I have. What is causing the response you are getting now is your very negative and derisive response that proper communication is about respect, not your own use of language.
We object to your content, not your form. |
You see unless we go to that other MMO with elves and orcs we see very little Leet used so when someone makes an error in spelling and grammar here and they are pounced on I find that disrespectful.
COH is not WOW and most of the folks here do their best.
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I don't think any of the discussion has been around mistakes, but rather focused upon deliberate misuses of language because it is "easier", "faster", or "evolving". Most people are fairly tolerant and forgiving of genuine mistakes, and most of those able to communicate with clarity themselves have great skill in reading past those minor mistakes without blinking an eye (I am at the point where other people have to point out common typos to me, I read over them so easily now.) |
Originally Posted by Mariel_Martog
To me the idea that someone with poor grammar is disrespectful because of poor grammar is wrong.
|
Making mistakes is not at issue here. A deliberate intent to not even bother trying is.
Which brings us back to "oh, it's just the internet, it's just a game, why do you care if I'm lazy about my typing, grammar, etc." What that's really saying is that unlike a paper for school or other "serious" work, we don't matter enough for the poster to make that extra effort.
Here's the funny thing - as I've noted, for some people it actually takes more effort to deliberately type badly. Using proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc is easier than the opposite.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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((Ack! Sorry! Eiko-chan, you are definitely not an ignoramus either. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
She was calling me an ignoramus, actually.
You fixed it wrong, for your information. Your very first "fix" is a comma splice, an inappropriate use of a comma. Comma splices are very common among those who are able to communicate verbally with eloquence but rarely have to communicate effectively in writing, because it is a common mistake to place a comma where you would pause while speaking. This, however, is not what the comma is for. |
))Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
And no one said your good faith effort was not taken in good faith. I have dyslexia. I know many people that have far more severe forms than I have. What is causing the response you are getting now is your very negative and derisive response that proper communication is about respect, not your own use of language.
We object to your content, not your form. |
))Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I don't think any of the discussion has been around mistakes, but rather focused upon deliberate misuses of language because it is "easier", "faster", or "evolving". Most people are fairly tolerant and forgiving of genuine mistakes, and most of those able to communicate with clarity themselves have great skill in reading past those minor mistakes without blinking an eye (I am at the point where other people have to point out common typos to me, I read over them so easily now.)
Making mistakes is not at issue here. A deliberate intent to not even bother trying is. |
In private chat you can type in any kind of sentence or non-sentence you like, but in chat where a lot of different people will be trying to understand you, it's respectful to keep things clear, just like it's respectful to keep things clean (and I slip up on that sometimes also).
Dialect? Ain't got no problem with that.
Complete sentences? Also not a problem.
Geniune mistakes? Not poblem.
Don't care enough to try to be clear? Prb yo?
))Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Which brings us back to "oh, it's just the internet, it's just a game, why do you care if I'm lazy about my typing, grammar, etc." What that's really saying is that unlike a paper for school or other "serious" work, we don't matter enough for the poster to make that extra effort.
Here's the funny thing - as I've noted, for some people it actually takes more effort to deliberately type badly. Using proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc is easier than the opposite. |
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|
Originally Posted by Mariel_Martog
I'm not saying I use proper grammar in my typing, I have several disabilities that make the written and spoken word fairly difficult, but I do like writing and speaking so I work very hard to use English.
you may not understand this but for me English is not my first language and I have dyslexia. for me I need to contently check my self and make sure I get it right but I do not expect others to do this. |
I stand by my earlier statements. But as long as I can easily tell what someone is saying, I'm fine. But some people on Virtue don't even use vowels when they spell! And we *do* have leet-speakers and I do not like them.
I'm not asking for perfection, but I put forth effort to spell correctly and use proper grammar (although,as you point out, I make lots of mistakes), and I try to make my thoughts understandable when people read them (sometimes I fail at that also). I think it's a sign of respect to communicate as best as you can (which, admittedly, sometimes means speaking in slang and using colloquialisms and such). But any kind of communication takes effort, from a crying baby, to a politician, to a flag-waving/flag-burning protester, and when someone doesn't put forth the effort, I take it as a sign of disrespect.
However, it does go both ways. When we make a big stink about spelling and grammar, it can make people who aren't fluid in English, or who have communication challenges reluctant to join in a conversation. And that's really what this is about -- the conversation. The back and forth. It would be sad if it only went forth and never came back.
Most of the people who post on this board are pretty bright, and communicate better than your average American. Glancing back over the thread, I don't see a single person who I would consider who I'd say was of below-average intelligence, and I see all sorts of language habits. This is a great thread and I think you're all pretty cool peeps.
But it's still Samuel Clemens.
))
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
Which brings us back to "oh, it's just the internet, it's just a game, why do you care if I'm lazy about my typing, grammar, etc." What that's really saying is that unlike a paper for school or other "serious" work, we don't matter enough for the poster to make that extra effort.
Here's the funny thing - as I've noted, for some people it actually takes more effort to deliberately type badly. Using proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc is easier than the opposite. |
You said it sister!
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This forum can be a rather rude place, I think it is best to have a "trial by fire" entrance to get used to being belittled (even if unjustified). I know MY first idea here was.|
Originally Posted by shikraria
This may be the most pointless thread any of you have ever read. But I started this new thread to apologize. Apologize for my 'misuse' of colors in the font. I am not going to lie, I am VERY new to this. Before I just played the game for fun, then I discovered this forum site. It intrigued me to know that I could post so many things on here, for instance...the AE thread. But I obvisiously didn't know is how critical everyone is on here. I don't mean how critical people are with the thread titles or the idea of it, I mean how critical people are of color fonts and how i use my grammer, yadda yadda yadda...But since everyone here has been so kind as to point out my faults, let me point one out to you, when you know someone is newer on here, instead of being so mean about things, just give them a heads up and tell them politely, instead of, well, basically starting an arguement! I really don't expect any responses, and if I get a few, kool beans. I just wanted to tell everyone that happens to read this, that I am sorry for the colors of the font and my 'attitude'. Hopefully, in the future, I will get better at this!!
 |
However, I don't remember if I yelled at you or not... if I did I do apologize. I wish that people would be more polite, but I stand by what I said above as well (mostly because I know lots of people will NOT be polite).
*smiles* Thank you. I can't remember either. I know peeps can be not so nice, but I felt I was getting attacked at all angles because I was new and they were seeing what I was made of.
I know that I can't have too aggresive of an attitude on here, because it will backfire and cause chaos. I still get it rough, but I'm pulling through. But in everyone else's defense, *laughs* I posted 2 HUGELY contraversal(? did I spell it right?) threads for my first threads. Spelling seems to be a huge thing, in general. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. But the only time it bothers me is if I cant understand anything that I just read. Other than that, if its your cup of tea...
P.S. Apology accepted
Quote:
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Originally Posted by shikraria
*smiles* Thank you. I can't remember either. I know peeps can be not so nice, but I felt I was getting attacked at all angles because I was new and they were seeing what I was made of.I know that I can't have too aggresive of an attitude on here, because it will backfire and cause chaos. I still get it rough, but I'm pulling through. But in everyone else's defense, *laughs* I posted 2 HUGELY contraversal(? did I spell it right?) threads for my first threads. Spelling seems to be a huge thing, in general. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. But the only time it bothers me is if I cant understand anything that I just read. Other than that, if its your cup of tea... P.S. Apology accepted |
((I'm from North Carolina. We're taught that if you're going to be mean and brutal, do it in a nice way. That's what smileys are for. You can say any mean thing you want if you put a
at the end of it.And glad you're not discouraged by us old timers.
))
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it actually was my poor attempt at humor, I was trying to sound like Mark Twain. |
Originally Posted by Mariel_Martog
My dear I hate to say this but you are a well spoken ignoramus.
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well this will be my last post on these forums for a bit mainly my bank account is too low to pay the upkeep tomorrow morning
its been fun, and I love causing torment and chaos by taking the unpopular points of view.
when I get back who knows what cause I will take up.
L8R Peeps...((sorry for the minor leet but I could not resist after all
Quote:
Contraversial, just for future reference. *Thumbsup*|
Originally Posted by shikraria
But in everyone else's defense, *laughs* I posted 2 HUGELY contraversal(? did I spell it right?)
|
Also, Heroid is awesome and that is all.
The Elysienne; Magical controller
Silent Sickle; Natural scrapper
And many more.
Aenigma Rebis: "Actually, Ely's more like Jean Grey. Only... smart."
...People are actually getting mad because someone isn't typing in default colors and font? What the hell is this world coming to?
As far as I personally am concerned OP, post however you like. Not like anyone can do anything about it and it is your personal choice, who are we to dictate what you should and should not do on these forums if you have been given the option to?
(I can already see the bad rep coming my way but...meh. I stick up for the oppressed people.)
Quote:
((Oooooh. I see that now! D'uh! What I get for rushing through reading things during break at work.|
Originally Posted by Mariel_Martog
it actually was my poor attempt at humor, I was trying to sound like Mark Twain.
well this will be my last post on these forums for a bit mainly my bank account is too low to pay the upkeep tomorrow morning its been fun, and I love causing torment and chaos by taking the unpopular points of view. when I get back who knows what cause I will take up. L8R Peeps...((sorry for the minor leet but I could not resist after all |
Seeya when you get back! Hope the bank account gets fat soon!
))
Quote:
*sigh* If you're coming late into a thread, please don't make random, false accusations. I'm willing to bet you never saw the actual, original post as it was, with the red/black font.
Originally Posted by JagBlade
...People are actually getting mad because someone isn't typing in default colors and font? What the hell is this world coming to?
As far as I personally am concerned OP, post however you like. Not like anyone can do anything about it and it is your personal choice, who are we to dictate what you should and should not do on these forums if you have been given the option to?
(I can already see the bad rep coming my way but...meh. I stick up for the oppressed people.)
And no one's -mad-. At least I'm not. We were just telling the original poster that if she wants her opinion to be debated, she should try and post in a format that is readable and understandable without causing the reader discomfort. And yes, the random red/black segments of the text did make their post incredibly difficult to read. No one's saying "RAWR! WHY WON'T YOU POST IN WHITE, YOU HERETIC!".
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What about us yinzers with English degrees n'at? |
Originally Posted by shikraria
Yea! I have another western Pennsylvanian on here! But ya, if you all lived here (meaning the English majors) you might hate it because of the way we talk!
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(In general and not addressed specifically to the OP)
An interesting discussion though I'm not sure I see the benefit in making some other person's even intentionally (though in most cases this would be an assumption on the part of the receiver) poor communication personal by taking it as a sign of a lack of respect to you. I certainly see the benefit in possibly not dealing with such a person, not teaming with them or even ignoring them altogether - but to make it explicitly about respect seems to me about moving away from reaching an understanding than it is to working towards it. (That's an aside - and I'm agreeing to disagree on this point as it is essentially a matter of opinion.)
The best argument for trying to communicate clearly is demonstrated by the trials of the OP though. She initially communicated in a way that was ineffective for this environment - be it with multi-colored font or her defensively abrasive responses to being questioned about it.
Her message was mostly lost because of this, and the discussion became about her methods of posting rather than the substance of her posts. She's since made an adjustment to better suit the environment here, and while the discussion of methods continues - her messages are now being received and considered.
It's not about being better than anyone, it's not about respecting anyone (though it certainly helps) it's not about showing off - it's about being heard and understood. You can't persuade someone if they can't/won't decode your message. If you're taking the time to communicate - it's worth the effort to tailor it most effectively to your target audience. Here at (or is it in?) the Virtue forums - it's not a black tie affair, but it is probably a business casual one. (In a different environment though - proper grammar and standard language would hinder being understood/received as opposed to enhancing it.)
Couple of things about this community. I know they/we wont like to hear it but it is very cliquesh here.
I was in EPIC battles some years back on here about many different topics. I find it easy to admit when I am wrong because I don't really put much stock in what people think about me at all. So admitting that I am wrong to them is no big deal.
But I found that if you DO stick to your guns and are not persuaded other people can get pretty close to stamping their feet and holding their breath to make you agree. Some don't like it if you don't agree with them just because they have 2, 3 or 4k posts on here.
There is just this foolish status thing...it's the only way I can think of to explain it...that you have to get past. Like one poster said...they actually copied out the OPs forum join date and number of posts.
And because the join date was recent and the number of posts were low then that automatically meant you did not know what you were talking about.
I mean isn't that really ridiculous? People who posts on the forums are for most part are SO self important that they cannot believe that somebody may actually know what they are talking about but have never posted on these forums before.
I just can't tell you how pompous and self important that is.
And the post about RP is a great example of how they/we will twist things so terribly.
Your post was the 498th post about "what is RP." Now some people did answer that question but most just ******* about your font.
/gasp
Isn't that Hijacking a thread???? For a community that spewed on and on and on about how out of line you were for actually typing in a forbidden font and color it is kind of amazing that the forum nazis would break one of the cardinal rules about forum posting and hijack your thread???
If we are quoting forum policy would it not have been proper to send messages to the OP rather than hijack the thread?
So they/we all use the rules when they are conveniant for us and we can use them like a weapon or a crutch.
I guess it depends on what your join date is and the number of posts you have.
Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
My New Rig
: Geforce 580 GTX, Core i7 950 @ 3.20 Ghz, 24GB RAM, 240GB SSD for OS, 60GB SSD for swap = Heaven.
Quote:
Controversial .... with an "o" rather than the "a". Space Cop, patrolling spelling from Earth's high orbit! |
Originally Posted by Elysienne
Contraversial, just for future reference. *Thumbsup*
Also, Heroid is awesome and that is all. |
My New Rig
: Geforce 580 GTX, Core i7 950 @ 3.20 Ghz, 24GB RAM, 240GB SSD for OS, 60GB SSD for swap = Heaven. *smiles* Quick question, since all of you know I'm new, do peeps like to take points from reputation instead of giving? I mean in general. I know I started out real rough, but, it's like if I say even one word wrong, peeps take them without a thought. Hmmmmm, just wondering.:/
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((I haven't paid that much attention to that thing since the move to the new boards. I don't see much point in it, since you don't know if someone is judging you by the merits of your ideas, by how much they agree/disagree with you, or if they are just mad at you. Heck, maybe they think your forum name is too close to "hemorrhoid" and it makes them squirm in their seat.|
Originally Posted by shikraria
*smiles* Quick question, since all of you know I'm new, do peeps like to take points from reputation instead of giving? I mean in general. I know I started out real rough, but, it's like if I say even one word wrong, peeps take them without a thought. Hmmmmm, just wondering.:/
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Don't worry about the rep thing. If peope really don't like your posts, then no one will reply to you. But you don't seem to have that problem. In a way, a neg-rep can be just as good as a pos-rep, if what you are posting for is so that other people to see your thoughts and opinions.
))
Quote:
So a smiley is the internet equivalent of "bless his/her heart"?|
Originally Posted by Heroid
((I'm from North Carolina. We're taught that if you're going to be mean and brutal, do it in a nice way. That's what smileys are for. You can say any mean thing you want if you put a
at the end of it.)) |
i.e., "MOUT's a real jerk who for the sake of future humanity's intelligence shouldn't be allowed to breed, bless his heart."
Forum Game: Lower the Rep
This thread became really funny today. Good job, thread!
Quote:
Ugh. I thought that looked wrong when I posted it too, but I was half-asleep and half-out the door to work.|
Originally Posted by Space_Cop
Controversial .... with an "o" rather than the "a". Space Cop, patrolling spelling from Earth's high orbit!
|
Thanks, Space Cop! *Salute*
The Elysienne; Magical controller
Silent Sickle; Natural scrapper
And many more.
Aenigma Rebis: "Actually, Ely's more like Jean Grey. Only... smart."
Quote:
((Why, you're smarter than I thought you were. Bless your heart/|
Originally Posted by MOUT__
So a smiley is the internet equivalent of "bless his/her heart"?
i.e., "MOUT's a real jerk who for the sake of future humanity's intelligence shouldn't be allowed to breed, bless his heart." |
))
You fixed it wrong, for your information. Your very first "fix" is a comma splice, an inappropriate use of a comma. Comma splices are very common among those who are able to communicate verbally with eloquence but rarely have to communicate effectively in writing, because it is a common mistake to place a comma where you would pause while speaking. This, however, is not what the comma is for.
I'm not saying I use proper grammar in my typing, I have several disabilities that make the written and spoken word fairly difficult, but I do like writing and speaking so I work very hard to use English.
you may not understand this but for me English is not my first language and I have dyslexia. for me I need to contently check my self and make sure I get it right but I do not expect others to do this.