As stated over there, I think Eviscerate is wrong, but I'll check my equations again.
The numbers on test are what they should be "by the book."
Be well, people of CoH.
I kinda figured it was too awesome to last. In any case it hardly seems a crippling adjustment.
Unless the number crunchers say otherwise. In that case I'll get my pitchfork and torch out pronto.
since this thread is already here, I'll post the explanation.
Claws is governed by 2 extra formulas that no other sets in the entire game are.
1. After calculating the initial damage of each power, it gets a 20% discount to its end costs and recharge times. It has been given these, in name, since Launch of CoH.
2. Around Issue... 12? i think? don't remember, it was given much faster Animations and at the time, Castle said that to prevent it from being too much better than the other sets, another formula was applied to normalize the DPS of each attack to roughly 1.0 DPS. This brought down 1 power and raised the others.
So, why all the adjustments on test now after launch and after a Closed Beta where someone should have caught all this? coughwasn'tinvitedcough
The devs did, or intended to do one thing to Brute Claws: raise the recharge. Since damage and endurance are calculated from Recharge, the damage and end costs of all powers would have increased by a bit, subject to the 2 Claws formulas.
Well, two mistakes were made.
1. when calculating the new damages, the calculations were entered into the spreadsheets incorrectly. (Swipe would be 0.84, not 0.83, etc)
2. The 2nd Claws formula was forgotten. The devs simply forgot to apply the formula to normalize the DPS of each power close to 1.0.
The result of Mistake #2 is that since the Recharges, and thusly the Damages, of all powers were raised, the base DPS went up on every power. By not applying the 2nd formula, the DPS of these powers were way higher than they should have been. For example, Focus was sitting at 1.42 and is now 1.29.
So the current damages on live simply shouldn't have been. Unfortunately, it wasn't caught until Open Beta and couldn't be patched any sooner than this.
(this doesn't even address what is now the issue of whether or not Claws should even have the DPS formula applied. just explaining what the hell is going on)
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Quote:
But perhaps it should be addressed. What's the end outcome if the claws cast time based damage tweak were removed?| this doesn't even address what is now the issue of whether or not Claws should even have the DPS formula applied |
Focus gets a huge buff. Shockwave a minor buff.
Spin gets a huge nerf. The remaining attacks get a minor nerf.
But that's for scrappers.
For brutes, all single target attacks get buffed, + shockwave. Spin still gets a huge nerf while eviscerate gets a minor nerf.
Overall single target damage would go up while AoE damage would go down.
And that's not to mention the the whole 20% discount on end and recharge corrections that are currently not 20% at all.
The real questions for claws users is this: What's more important to us? ST or AoE damage?
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The real questions for claws users is this: What's more important to us? ST or AoE damage?
|
Not sure what's going on here...
I play Claws for the ability to have middle of the ground ST and AoE damage
Not for it's ridiculous ST or ridiculous AoE capabilty but rather somewhere in the middle for both
Wow that must be some sort of record Nerfed already b4 i even get it to 41 AWSOME!!!
There are 3 options possible as I see it for claws:
For all of these choices, Followup appears to have no adjustments at all, I assume because it is the set's buff power. Its stats are .8 DAM - 12 REC - 7.8 END
1: Remove the Cast Time Based DPS Tweak
Swipe: .84 DAM - 2.4 REC - 3.494 END
Strike: 1.32 DAM - 4.8 REC - 5.491 END
Slash: 1.64 DAM - 6.4 REC - 6.822 END
Focus: 1.96 DAM - 8 REC- 8.154 END
Spin: 1.436 DAM - 14 REC - 13.146 END
Evisc: 2.034 DAM - 12 REC - 11.482 END
Shock: 1.281 DAM - 14.4 REC - 13.478 END
Choice 2: As they will be on live after the correction goes through.
Swipe: .835 DAM - 2.4 REC - 3.494 END
Strike: 1.243 DAM - 4.8 REC - 5.491 END
Slash: 1.477 DAM - 6.4 REC - 6.822 END
Focus: 1.514 DAM - 8 REC- 8.154 END
Spin: 1.895 DAM - 14 REC - 13.146 END
Evisc: 2.177 DAM - 12 REC - 11.482 END (Unknown why this dam is different than on test)
Shock: 1.132 DAM - 14.4 REC - 13.478 END
Choice 3: This is what happens if recharge and end are re-tweaked based on the tweaked damage.
Swipe: .835 DAM - 2.375 REC - 3.474 END
Strike: 1.243 DAM - 4.414 REC - 5.17 END
Slash: 1.477 DAM - 5.584 REC - 6.144 END
Focus: 1.514 DAM - 5.772 REC- 6.3 END
Spin: 1.895 DAM - 19.045 REC - 17.343 END
Evisc: 2.177 DAM - 12.970 REC - 12.289 END
Shock: 1.132 DAM - 12.515 REC - 11.910 END
Stupid_Fanboy, what are you showing for the correct value of eviscerate?
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Wait, so Brute Claws will be given the same damage scales as Scrapper versions, but have longer recharges? What is the point of that?|
Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
The devs did, or intended to do one thing to Brute Claws: raise the recharge. Since damage and endurance are calculated from Recharge, the damage and end costs of all powers would have increased by a bit, subject to the 2 Claws formulas.
|
I know the Brute version of claws on live is quite different from the Scrapper model, and have been trying to figure out the reasons for slowing it down.
Quote:
No, brute claws will still do more damage than scrapper claws. The longer recharges make sure of that.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Wait, so Brute Claws will be given the same damage scales as Scrapper versions, but have longer recharges? What is the point of that?
I know the Brute version of claws on live is quite different from the Scrapper model, and have been trying to figure out the reasons for slowing it down. |
Here are scrapper claw numbers for comparison:
Swipe: 0.762
Strike: 1.082
Slash: 1.325
Focus: 1.385
Followup: 0.800
Spin: 1.581
Eviscerate: 1.914
Shockwave: 1.048
Just to make sure credit's given where it's due: Every number I've listed in here I only have because Stupid_Fanboy did all the work to get the equations back in the day. I just slapped the equations into my own spreadsheet and this is what dumped out.
Be well, people of CoH.
Everything should be fine.
They can't have it too far off the scrappers number.. could they?
I'm just only starting to get a hang of this thing you guys call fury... and its some what starting to grow on me... ;-)
Yea, Iggy... it does that. Sometimes it grows on ya a bit too much. It did with me.
Be well, people of CoH.
Figured out the eviscerate discrepancy. I used the actual 7' radius rather than the old 5'.
Be well, people of CoH.
Well, isn't that just special?
Oh well, doesn't seem too bad; Fury still gets you up there in damage.
Quote:
So you're saying there isn't a 20% discount to end or recharge on live right now? And how does a lower damage scale equate to a buff? I've never understood how it works, I guess.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
But perhaps it should be addressed. What's the end outcome if the claws cast time based damage tweak were removed?
Focus gets a huge buff. Shockwave a minor buff. Spin gets a huge nerf. The remaining attacks get a minor nerf. But that's for scrappers. For brutes, all single target attacks get buffed, + shockwave. Spin still gets a huge nerf while eviscerate gets a minor nerf. Overall single target damage would go up while AoE damage would go down. And that's not to mention the the whole 20% discount on end and recharge corrections that are currently not 20% at all. The real questions for claws users is this: What's more important to us? ST or AoE damage? |
You know what's funny?
There was a post in Beta from someone complaining about claws because it was going to get nerfed after it went live. Nostradamus posts among us.
Quote:
There's still A discount to all but brute focus. It's just no longer 20% on endurance.|
Originally Posted by SkylineGTR
So you're saying there isn't a 20% discount to end or recharge on live right now? And how does a lower damage scale equate to a buff? I've never understood how it works, I guess.
|
As for the thread during beta stating that claws would be nerfed, I remember that thread. And I remember explaining that there would be no nerf.
Technically, there hasn't been a nerf. The numbers were wrong and now they will be correct.
Yea, I know.... semantics.
Anyhoo.... back to the end and recharge discounts... they still occur as Stupid_Fanboy pointed out. They just mean less since the damage gets tweaked. Why do they mean less? Because how much end a power costs is based on the damage. Because the damage is being reduced by the DPS tweak, but the end is being figured on the damage prior to the tweak, we end up paying more end than we would per damage than we would without the tweak.
Be well, people of CoH.
It's also worth noting that the thread was about how Brute Claws would be nerfed, and therefore it was worthless to play. Even if the first condition could be said to have come true, the implication was clearly bonkers - I don't have a Claws/ brute now, but even with the reduced numbers given I would still strongly consider rolling one if I were looking to make a new villain.
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
That's true, ST. It's still going to be a damn fine brute primary. 3 great AoEs, solid single target output. The blender will still blend quite well.
Another thing about claws is the fact that focus and shockwave still use the melee damage modifier instead of the ranged damage modifier. So there's another oddity that must be taken into account.
Take focus for the example: It does damage scale 1.514
At level 50 on a brute that works out to 63.15 damage.
If it used the ranged damage modifier instead, it would only do 42.1
So we got that going for us.
Quote:
Missed this. The claws damage tweak that was added to the set when the animations were all tweaked a while back is a buff and a nerf depending on the cast time of the power in quesion.| And how does a lower damage scale equate to a buff? |
For scrappers:
Swipe: buff
Strike: buff
Slash: buff
Focus: NERF
Spin: BUFF
Evisc: BUFF
Shock: nerf
For brutes:
Swipe: nerf
Strike: nerf
Slash: nerf
Focus: NERF
Spin: BUFF
Evisc: buff
Shock: nerf
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Indeed. I'll probably still play mine depending on how much the changes effect the feel of the set for me. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
It's also worth noting that the thread was about how Brute Claws would be nerfed, and therefore it was worthless to play. Even if the first condition could be said to have come true, the implication was clearly bonkers - I don't have a Claws/ brute now, but even with the reduced numbers given I would still strongly consider rolling one if I were looking to make a new villain.
|
I was just pointing out that poster, which people flamed, was right that claws was nerfed. I remember some posters even stating in Beta that claws was OPed.
Unless you already have eviscerate fully slotted, Clouded, I doubt you'll notice the difference.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
I know, but I'm one of those "don't count my chickens until they hatch" people. I've played claws on scrappers and found it lacking. Not sure if that's because Brutes get Fury or if it's due to the changes to claws when it was ported. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Unless you already have eviscerate fully slotted, Clouded, I doubt you'll notice the difference.
|
Either way, they are fun right now and I hope it stays that way for me.
Made myself a claws brute recently, got him to level 10 in 2 days and im a pretty casual player, LOVE IT!!! I guess the new diff and claws being fast, easy on the end and pretty tough made it one mean set. i doubt the nerf will make it any less fun to play, unless they descide to take it down even more
Quote:
I have absolutely zero concern that this will occur.
| unless they descide to take it down even more |
Be well, people of CoH.
What do I think? I think I played a claws/wp brute up to 10 and was pretty dang impressed with fury+spin at low levels and was confident it would continue to destroy with over twice the damage of other pbaoes such as whirling hands. And it should continue to as it wasn't lowered from the looks of it.
I also think this is a major concern http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=188712. It feels wrong that that person was so right haha. While this nerf/downward adjustment is not enough to make the set unplayable its enough where if you are a numbers person you will certainly notice and it might put a damper on your enjoyment...maybe.
Claws - Swipe: Decreased this powers damage scale from .89 to .83
Claws - Strike: Decreased this powers damage scale from 1.35 to 1.24
Claws - Slash: Decreased this powers damage scale from 1.64 to 1.48
Claws - Focus: Decreased this powers damage scale from 1.66 to 1.51
Claws - Eviscerate: Decreased this powers damage scale from 2.4 to 2.181
Claws - Shockwave: Decreased this powers damage scale from 1.25 to 1.13
Discuss.
@Demobot
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