I'd just like to throw in my $.02.
This sucks. I knew it was coming, I know it is a correction to what it was suppose to be in the first place, I know the numbers say this needs to happen, but...
My Claws Brute is at lvl 36 now. I've been running with an all claws super team. We've had alot of fun, but we are FAR from over powered. My claws brute is fun, but the damage already seems lacking. Now it is going down even more. Just a bummer cause I had such high hopes and now I finally have my Claws brute, and he isn't so super.
Again, I know the numbers say this needed to happen and these new numbers are the correct numbers...I'm just saying after 36 levels of playing I don't think this needs to be corrected.
For anyone not comfortable with DS scales and what they actually mean here are the unenhanced lvl 50 numbers live vs test for a brute.
Swipe: 37.1 --> 34.62
Strike: 56.3 --> 51.72
Slash: 68.4 --> 61.73
Spin: 78.83 --> 78.83
Followup: 33.37 --> 33.37
Focus: 69.2 --> 62.98
Taunt:
Evis: 100.1 --> 90.96
Shocker: 52.1 --> 47.13
So what does that mean? Spin still rocks so hard! But what about some attacks with enhances, single followup, and say 85% fury?
Strike:
146.5 --> 136.7
Focus:
273 --> 248.8
So really not that much of a reduction in actual play, but a reduction nonetheless. At least spin still does like double the damage of most other pbaoes!
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I understand and while it's unfortunate so many of us are enjoying claws, the amount of levels earned doesn't really matter to balancing. |
Originally Posted by JDub
Again, I know the numbers say this needed to happen and these new numbers are the correct numbers...I'm just saying after 36 levels of playing I don't think this needs to be corrected. |
Luckily, the decrease is minor in most areas and Spin is still awesome.
But it does hurt. I'll need to test the changes later tonight to see if I can preceive the changes without doing any mathmatic formulas. That's what really matters to me nowadays.
I'm doing my best to look at it this way:
Brutes with claws will be able to get higher ST DPS than scrappers. And scrapper ST DPS ain't nothin to cry over.
Be well, people of CoH.
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That's an oddity? That's SoP for melee powersets with ranged attacks.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Another thing about claws is the fact that focus and shockwave still use the melee damage modifier instead of the ranged damage modifier. So there's another oddity that must be taken into account.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Hadn't checked. But good to know. Can anyone check to see if scrapper APP NightFall was corrected? Last I checked it was using the range modifier for its damage.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's an oddity? That's SoP for melee powersets with ranged attacks.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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The only thing I've noticed is why decrease Shockwave's Damage...at lvl 50 with 90% Fury it still does less damage than Swipe...it just does damage to a cone. That is still sad that a tier 1 attack (Swipe) does more damage to a single mob then the tier 9 attack (Shockwave) :P
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
For anyone not comfortable with DS scales and what they actually mean here are the unenhanced lvl 50 numbers live vs test for a brute.
Swipe: 37.1 --> 34.62 Strike: 56.3 --> 51.72 Slash: 68.4 --> 61.73 Spin: 78.83 --> 78.83 Followup: 33.37 --> 33.37 Focus: 69.2 --> 62.98 Taunt: Evis: 100.1 --> 90.96 Shocker: 52.1 --> 47.13 So what does that mean? Spin still rocks so hard! But what about some attacks with enhances, single followup, and say 85% fury? Strike: 146.5 --> 136.7 Focus: 273 --> 248.8 So really not that much of a reduction in actual play, but a reduction nonetheless. At least spin still does like double the damage of most other pbaoes! |
1: Shockwave doesn't do less damage to a single target than swipe. It does more damage on both scrappers and brutes.
Scrap: .762 vs 1.048
Brute: .835 vs 1.132
And it does so on up to 10 targets.
2: Changes are occurring because because the base numbers were wrong. That which is wrong should be fixed.
Be well, people of CoH.
Been rerolling and rerolling and finally settled on claws/fire.
Blazing aura, Spin and Sands of Moo has allowed me to solo pretty quick +0/6 up to 9
Longbow is a problem but i can avoid that now and head to port oakes for temp travel and start on invader. I feel squshy but its kind of funny. Like a /fire blapper with a self heal.
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It would appear that shockwave is more on par with strike for st damage, but is of course a nice cone.
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Originally Posted by MurderousMalk
The only thing I've noticed is why decrease Shockwave's Damage...at lvl 50 with 90% Fury it still does less damage than Swipe...it just does damage to a cone. That is still sad that a tier 1 attack (Swipe) does more damage to a single mob then the tier 9 attack (Shockwave) :P
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Does shockwave still do KB on +4s? I don't know if that is balanced around or not. Maybe its to give Brutes more AoE mitigation but less damage (easily shored up by Spin if you ask me)?
Anyways, seems kinda messed up that they need to lower the effectiveness of the set so soon after release. Like, didn't someone test it and say "Hey, take a closer look see here"? Do what you gotta do I guess, but how 'bout making them cheaper while you're at it?
I'll restate what's been stated already:
ALL powers in this game follow equations. The damage a power does is based off of its recharge. The endurance it costs is based off of its damage.
The claws numbers were wrong. It was noticed in open beta and brought to the devs' attention then. It took time to get the changes pushed through.
While the devs COULD readjust the recharge and endurance costs of all claws attacks based on the new damage generated from the cast time based claws DPS tweak, we would get the numbers I listed earlier in the thread.
But you have to ask yourself... do you REALLY want a 19 second recharge on spin?
Be well, people of CoH.
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No sir. I have a cheap softcapped claws/SR brute planned out with some +recharge that has spin on a 5.2 second recharge. You'll have to pry that recharge from my cold, dead hands.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
But you have to ask yourself... do you REALLY want a 19 second recharge on spin?
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I bet you're not alone in that, SC.
Be well, people of CoH.
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As far as I know, the APPs still use the ranged modifier. Primary powers (such as Focus and Impale) stick with the melee modifier. It's like for all archetypes; set powers use whichever modifier helps more, and pools (including epics) use whichever makes more sense.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Hadn't checked. But good to know. Can anyone check to see if scrapper APP NightFall was corrected? Last I checked it was using the range modifier for its damage.
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We'll always have Paragon.
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Spin, good. Evis, eh. What about Shockwave? Is it still a knockback for brutes? Cuz if it is that's not a very "great" aoe for tanking/bruting then, ya know?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That's true, ST. It's still going to be a damn fine brute primary. 3 great AoEs, solid single target output. The blender will still blend quite well.
Another thing about claws is the fact that focus and shockwave still use the melee damage modifier instead of the ranged damage modifier. So there's another oddity that must be taken into account. |
If it's Knockdown, however, them I'm all aboard for taking it.
The usual stupid, messy, post-issue nerf.
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It's a Knockback still. At least it's a cone though, they're fairly easy to position so you slam things into a wall. Not optimal for some Brute builds, like WP or Invun but we do get an AOE immob at 41 as well which is handy to neuter it.|
Originally Posted by biff10426
Spin, good. Evis, eh. What about Shockwave? Is it still a knockback for brutes? Cuz if it is that's not a very "great" aoe for tanking/bruting then, ya know?
If it's Knockdown, however, them I'm all aboard for taking it. |
Can be a life-saver sometimes on my Claws/WP scrapper, but I don't use it too much. On my Claws/Elec brute it's going to be more useful as I'll be able to counter the knockback with Fences, or not depending on the situation.
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Eh, the one point more than strike damage, cone, and knockback till 41 makes it kinda of a ****** pick. Evis too, even, I can see taking elecs, darks, or fires damage toggle and working spin for LT/Minion kills and working bosses over man to man rather than wasting the pick.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax
It's a Knockback still. At least it's a cone though, they're fairly easy to position so you slam things into a wall. Not optimal for some Brute builds, like WP or Invun but we do get an AOE immob at 41 as well which is handy to neuter it.
Can be a life-saver sometimes on my Claws/WP scrapper, but I don't use it too much. On my Claws/Elec brute it's going to be more useful as I'll be able to counter the knockback with Fences, or not depending on the situation. |
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Well so far, the Claws/EA tactics I imagined are working to a tee. I expect great things for my personal protection with Shockwave and tactical positioning with Soul Tentacles. *crosses fingers that it turns out like planned*
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Originally Posted by biff10426
Eh, the one point more than strike damage, cone, and knockback till 41 makes it kinda of a ****** pick. Evis too, even, I can see taking elecs, darks, or fires damage toggle and working spin for LT/Minion kills and working bosses over man to man rather than wasting the pick.
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Whatever works for you. I'm going for lots and lots of AOE as I like fighting lots of lower level enemies at once solo, with no bosses mostly for the constant stream of Insps & Salvage (and recipies if the crappy drop rates are fixed). So for me Spin, Evis & Shockwave will all be used. Especially since I'm Elec, which feels a little squishy, so being able to mass-knock things away could be useful for me.|
Originally Posted by biff10426
Eh, the one point more than strike damage, cone, and knockback till 41 makes it kinda of a ****** pick. Evis too, even, I can see taking elecs, darks, or fires damage toggle and working spin for LT/Minion kills and working bosses over man to man rather than wasting the pick.
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Shockwave is absolutely nothing compared to the wonder that is Spin, that's for sure. We're a bit spoilt by the awesome that is Spin!
The Epic AOEs are going to make you really sad if you consider Shockwaves damage to be too low
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Oddly enough, not the case.|
Originally Posted by NeverDark
As far as I know, the APPs still use the ranged modifier. Primary powers (such as Focus and Impale) stick with the melee modifier. It's like for all archetypes; set powers use whichever modifier helps more, and pools (including epics) use whichever makes more sense.
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Take tenebrous tentacles as an example. This info from City of Data.
For a defender it does 33.84 total neg damage.
Checking that for unspecified it's .94.
33.84/.94 = 36
Ranged Damage Modifier for defender is 36.147
Melee Damage Modifier for a defender is 30.586
TT on a defender uses the range modifier
For a scrapper it does 58.53 total neg damage.
Checking that for unspecified it's also .94
58.53/.94 = 62.266
Ranged Damage Modifier for a scrapper is 27.805
Melee Damage Modifier for a scrapper is 62.562
TT on a scrapper uses the melee modifier
Same is true for Dark Blast on both.
However, last I checked NightFall, it was using the scrapper ranged modifier. Of course, I completely forgot to check this last night.
Be well, people of CoH.
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This seems very inconsistent.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Oddly enough, not the case.
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When Villains first got their patron pools, there was a hubaloo over the fact that Stalkers ranged attacks used their ranged damage modifier, which is typically a sucktastic 0.5 for melee ATs. This made powers like Dark Blast, which is a 1.0 damage scale attack, exceptionally lackluster. At the time, part of the stink over it was that it was different from other melee ATs, who it was argued got to use their melee damage modifier for their ranged epic attacks.
I have to wonder if these Dark Blast examples aren't some copy paste error from the original powersets, which would use ranged AT modifiers. Are other Scrapper/Tanker/Brute (epic) ranged attacks using melee or ranged scales? I don't have a lot of time to research right now - maybe this evening.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
That's how I got those numbers....
quick spot checks:
Tank Energy Torrent: Melee Modifier
Tank Fire Blast: Melee Modifier
Brute Dark Obliteration: Melee Modifier
Brute Disruptor Blast: Melee Modifier
Stalker Dark Blast: Melee Modifier
Stalker Spirit Shark: Melee Modifier
So, Scrapper Night Fall is just wrong. I'll check on it tonight.
Be well, people of CoH.
I'm about to hit SO levels anyway, so hopefully any downswing in the numbers gets brushed over by the joy of having things slotted with Damage SOs. At the mo I've no Damage slotting in any of my powers at all and it still chops through things.