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Below average? A friend of mine likes to obliterate entire spawns - fast and alone. Fulcrum Shift + Blackstar = ugly. |
Originally Posted by Darkest
Right, I understand. So, Defenders become more and more useful the more there are? Does this make up for the fact that in general use they are below average? I suppose that is a matter of opinion...
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Yes, indeed I do. I acknowledged what you said...And then made a separate point, which was essentially something I've said earlier "Why invite a Defender when you can invite a Controller?".
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Not at all. Adding a defender you have added effectiveness to the whole team (through buff/debuffs and the like)
Add a Scrapper you have added damage, but not mutliplied the other team mates. Do you actually understand the phrase 'force multiplier' ? |
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
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Why invite a controller (who outside of a few edge case do sub-par damage to defenders) when you can have stronger buff/debuff and damage ?|
Originally Posted by Darkest
Yes, indeed I do. I acknowledged what you said...And then made a separate point, which was essentially something I've said earlier "Why invite a Defender when you can invite a Controller?".
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<edit>
Take a Ice troller - unenhanced numbers
Chillblain 30.6 Damage (ST)
Block of ice 30.6 damage
Frostbite 9.18 AOE
Flash Freeze 6.12 AOE
Now containment can leverage that 30.6 to 61.2 if you have the target mezzed
Take a /Ice Defender
Ice Bolt 36.1
Ice Blast 59.3
Ice Breath 50.6 (Cone)
Freeze Ray 3.61
Ice Storm 116.8 (AOE)
Bitter Ice Blast 82.4
Bitter Freeze Ray 47.7
Ice blast (the 2nd power) is about equivalent to the best damage output you can expect from an ice troller, and thats assuming you slot the hold for damage rather than control.
/Ice blast has far superior AOE damage (yay for teaming) and even has decent control (2 holds plus slows)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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See I hate this question! Here the thing why invite anyone one? To have fun that is why I play the game and that is why I would invite a Defender to have fun! Also if I'm on with one of my Defender and I don't get an invite from people, because I'm a Defender, then they are people I don't want to team with.
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Originally Posted by Darkest
Yes, indeed I do. I acknowledged what you said...And then made a separate point, which was essentially something I've said earlier "Why invite a Defender when you can invite a Controller?".
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"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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You do have a good point(which I kind of expected somebody to make|
Originally Posted by Darkest
Aha, was wondering when this would come up.
Whilst, yes, Defenders do what blasters do "to a lesser extent" it is, as you say, and as I have pointed out, a rather large difference. Yes, the difference in (de)buffs between Controllers and Defenders is there, but it is significantly less than the difference in damage (I refer back to my annecdote earlier). Another point is that whilst Defenders have Controllers metaphorically breathing down their neck, Blasters are very much of their own in the "glass cannon" approach from my point of view. Defenders are more of an, er, "Glass Medi Pack"...if you see what I mean? |
), but the two situations are still slightly different. As has been stated by Catwhoorg a defenders effectiveness scales differently dependent on team size. If I add a blaster to a team then I get X amount of damage. If I add a defender or another (de)buffer, the overall effect is much harder to quantify.eg comparing duos with a Controller/Blaster and Defender/Blaster, the level of buffing the blaster receives will be greater with the defender than with the controller but not by a huge amount and of course the controller has all that lovely control (and damage). However in a larger team that difference multiplied by a greater number of team members will be significantly larger.
That is the strength of the defender, but also the weakness because defenders really only excel significantly over controllers when team sizes are larger. The problem fast approaching is what will happen to defenders after Going Rogue? Then they won't be competing for team space just with controllers but corruptors and masterminds too.
Pyrokine
"Live forever or die tryin'"
Why invite a Defender over a Controller? Dark Miasma 
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Many thanks to all for your replies. You've kept me on my toes and, to be totally truthful, with my back against the wall. However, alas, my evening is coming to an end.
Just a few points FYI;
1. I myself don't actually dislike Defenders, if I'm honest. I have a couple at 50 and I know the difference they can make to the team. I picked the controversial side to try and get things going...which I suppose it did.
2. You can, of course, continue with the debate amongst yourselves...although I feel it's somewhat lopsided ... leading on to my final point...
3. I seem to have picked something of an unfortunate issue to start a debate on, in that there's only one person against the entire populace. I didn't actually mean to generate this situation, as it means that once I leave, the thread will end.
But anyway, goodnight and many thanks once again, you've kept me entertained of an evening, which was why I started this in the first place. Early start tommorow - ugh - nothing like College.
Next time, I'll try to pick a more even issue, if I can.
Thanks again,
Darkest.
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
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It is rare that I even look at what the AT is at all. I just invite whom ever wants to team. As such, I agree with the above statement.
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Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
See I hate this question! Here the thing why invite anyone one? To have fun that is why I play the game and that is why I would invite a Defender to have fun! Also if I'm on with one of my Defender and I don't get an invite from people, because I'm a Defender, then they are people I don't want to team with.
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Badging in a PvP zone?
If you are treasure hunting on a battlefield wearing an enemy uniform, there is a high probability that you will be attacked.
This is an enjoy-the-ride game. "50" is only a number, not the goal of the game. - Noxilicious
this thread is so surreal
i'm not sure if i'm the one missing the point or everyone else has
the initial prompt was pretty quickly drowned in semantics and non sequiturs and then people started adding their two cents on issues that had no real bearing on the discussion
and now this argumentative mess is followed by some sort of puppet master-y quasi admission of defeat by the op
i just don't even know
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=185617&page=5
Already made a post about this very thing inside Defender forum. My first post is all "doom" and I apolize, but from page 3 and onwards it has become quite an interesting debate.
Just by people making these topics shows that there is, infact, something wrong and it needs to be addressed.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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/this|
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
Why invite a Defender over a Controller? Dark Miasma
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But then again, I've been a devoted D3 aficionado from clear back when no one who didn't actually play one had any idea just how good they are.
Unsolicited comment from a teammate: "Wow...having a D3 is like Team Godmode."
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
My main problem with my first and main character an Empathy Defender is the endurance issues while trying to solo. I have the tools to survive mostly even if I don't have any status protection. I however have to mostly stick to Heroic missions because any more foes cause even the easiest scanner missions to become a long boring haul.
Healers are needed less and less at higher levels.
Defenders are still sought after.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Healers = H, Defenders = D, Useful at high levels = U.|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Healers are needed less and less at higher levels.
Defenders are still sought after. |
H = !U, D = U, therefore H != D.
Defenders are not (just) healers.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
I'd rather take a defender than any other archetype for my teams. I like making all-defender teams.
No, defenders aren't redundant. If you're awesome by yourself, you become ridiculously awesome with defender backup or supplementation.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Take your second build and make a solo setup with it. That's what I've done with my main (emp/archery). Her team build has all the Empathy stuff except AP, and only four attacks from Archery, plus CP/PBU/TF from Power Mastery, plus team-centric power pools. She rocks socks in teams.|
Originally Posted by Jasmine Strega
My main problem with my first and main character an Empathy Defender is the endurance issues while trying to solo. I have the tools to survive mostly even if I don't have any status protection. I however have to mostly stick to Heroic missions because any more foes cause even the easiest scanner missions to become a long boring haul.
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Solo Build, she only has Emp stuff that affects her. Healing Aura, Regen Aura, Recov Aura. That's it! She has every attack from Archery, and TS/ShockingBolt/Power Sink from Electricity Mastery, plus solo-centric power pools. She solos awesome. She's like a Blaster with better support. Although I do have to admit that she's kitted out almost completely with HOs, so her attacks and stuff are only 3 slotted and still have 99% damage, 33% accuracy, and either 33% range or 33% +mez. That way I have lots and lots of leftover slots to stick procs and globals all over the place, making her even more cool.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Speak for yourself; my Defenders are far from "obsolete." They are, in fact, very requested on teams. I own two Dark/dark Defenders and one Dark/dark Corruptor. All three are very powerful characters in their own right. |
Originally Posted by Darkest
With their damage being low, and another AT able to cover their main role in a team, the Defender becomes obsolete.
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If you wished to discuss "obsolete," the place to start might be an MA Scrapper or an Archery Blaster. Now do not get me wrong: I like both of these characters, and both of them are level 50. I consider them both *really* fun to play. I am not considering deleting them. But popular on teams.... seems like everyone would rather have the Defenders.
This may be due to MA's emphasis on single-target damage and Archery's relatively low damage, esp. compared to a Fire/fire Blaster. [I own a level 50 one of those, and he is a very popular boy indeed.] Given the choice, people seem to prefer debuffs to Rain of Arrows, darnit. Unless you are the Blaster God of Damage a la Fire/fire; people like lots and lots of damage.
But Defenders "obsolete"? Bwahahahaha. Not hardly.
Another thread derailed! Where will the madness end!?
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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This aint derailed, its obviously not in the right section.|
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
Another thread derailed! Where will the madness end!?
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Your the carebear or sumthin?
The derailment of this thread was caused by Nemesis. Seriously.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
Bracass = Lord Nemesis?
... everything suddenly makes much more sense.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
A nemesis is very different from Lord Nemesis.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Im a Nem in a chinese restaurant.
But im gonna rule,
I ll be a great defender, of China that is,
The bigest economic power in the world is communist.
Im a red Nem^^
I shudder to think what your average is if you believe an AT capable to solo archvillains and giant monsters with ease is "below average". You'd probably think all my characters completely suck.