Kheldians need a buff pass.
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-09-12 13:27 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I hate to be 'THAT GUY'....but my WS has no problem soloing a even level boss and niether have many of the WS's ive seen runnin around lately they all seem to be goin off and gettin into 'scrapperlock'. Heck i even saw a WS go herd up some lvl 54 bosses in AE and without skipin a beat he was able to eclipse double mire and explode droppin almost all the bosses to below half hp and even killed a few of em i guess cuse he was able to strygian and keep on goin like he was some sort of god.... but if ya dont know this already "epic AT" doesnt mean the AT is better then any other AT it just means thier story is epic(in the case of VeaT no so much).
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Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
When a Kheldian cannot take a boss 1 on 1 in a safeguard mission. They archtype needs a pass and buffs by the devs. There is no other archtype on hero side that is a guaranteed fail against a even conning boss in a safeguard mission, except for the Kheldian.
Warshades and Peacebringers both arent where they should be. You cant tell me that a hero playing 50 levels on any archtype is going to be truly happy with them. Just look at the VEATs in comparison to the Kheldians. They should be better then this. |
I recommend that you wander over to the Kheldian forum and look for some advice. It has been repeated over and over again that Kheldian do not play the same way as any other Archtype in the game and it is true. Admittedly they are not super strong until later in their careers, but they can still have excellent odds on day one of defeating a boss in a Safeguard mission or any other mission.
The people in the Kheldian forum are friendly and will be more than happy to help with strategy and build advice.
"The only thing to crave is Immortality, and Death is the last rube to cheat."
They trained the Rikti to drop Fire on people, but they won't let them write (Censored) on their spaceships because it is obscene!
Hmm, I figured by level 30 that I would be able to at least take a boss toe to toe. But yeah, I'll check the Kheldian forums. How much later in their carriers are we talking about? I'm already level 30. lol
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
Go to the Kheld forum, post your build (what powers you have, at least, if not how you have them slotted, as well), and ask what can be done to improve yourself. At level 30, my Warshade was actually pretty mean. You have some great options at that level if you make good choices and work on slotting well. Read the guides, post your build, and you'll definitely get some great help.
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If you can't handle a boss by level 30, you're doing something wrong. I went through the EBs in Faultline on my WS mostly solo with little trouble, and that's in the 15-25 range.
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Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
Hmm, I figured by level 30 that I would be able to at least take a boss toe to toe.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I think you mistook Peacebringers for the entire Kheldian AT.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
What difficulty were you on? Do you use dwarf form and nova form? What is your build? Did you use insps?
I ask these questions because as Fleeting Whisper stated, if you can't handle a single boss at level 30 with a PB, you're doing it wrong.
And I say this as someone who has deleted his PB twice. Once at 50 and again at 30something.
Be well, people of CoH.
Two PBs at 50, one WS at 50...
I'll echo the above comments. Go to the Kheld forums, post your build, what difficulty and what boss. Something's wonky either in build or tactics.
You are enhanced with SO's/IO's, right?
I know it seems a stupid question, but these days, I run into more and more folk who think that they 'only need to enhance at 47' playing Khelds...
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Next time you hear someone state this, tell them I hate them.
| 'only need to enhance at 47' playing Khelds... |
Be well, people of CoH.
As others have pointed out, if your PB can't handle a boss, ANY boss for that matter at level 30 then something's way wrong in either your build or your tactics.
Bosses really cease to be a big issue for a Keld about the time you turn 6 and get Nova form; tougher bosses later on may require Dwarf if they have significant mez abilities.
By the way, Kelds received a huge buff a couple of issues ago, Dwarf damage was substantially increased and your inherent Cosmic Balance changed to work on all three forms. I believe there were a couple other buffs at the time that I can't think of offhand.
When you face a boss you can run up and hit Incandescent Strike, Radiant Strike and go to Dwarf if needed. If you're taking damage you have three heals available to you at level 30... Essence Boost which is a Dull Pain clone, Reform Essence which is a straight heal and White Dwarf Heal.
No decently built and played level 30 Keld will have difficulty with bosses. AV's are another story of course, but bosses or even EB's are manageable.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Maybe the "boss" of the safeguard mission was actually Silver Mantis or something?
All the "learn to play" aside, it still baffles me that Kheldians fall behind VEATs so much in... just about everything.
Self buffs do less for Khelds. CJ for instance does +1.875% DEF on Khelds, +2.5% on VEATs. Tough is 11.25% for Khelds and +15% for VEATs. Peacebringer BU is is +72% DMG/18% ToHit while Widow/Bane is +80%/20%.
Team buffs are less on Khelds. Assault for instance does +13.5% for Khelds, +15% on VEATs. Actually, outside of that, HEATs have a severe lack of team buffs, while VEATs are force multipliers that can bring quite large bonuses to a team.
HEATs can get around 35% resistance to most damage types except psi and toxic for 0.78 end/sec. Compared to 16% S/L RES + 12% F/C/N/E/T + 15% psi + 21% DEF + 20% HP for 0.42 end/sec (Bane), 35% DEF for 0.53 end/sec (Widow/Fort with ML refreshing when it drops), or 33% S/L RES + 39% F/C/N/E/T RES + 15% DEF for 0.42 end/sec (Crab). Gets a bit more complicated when you add heals and stuff of course. But the biggest difference is that HEATs get no status protection in human form, while VEATs all do. Crabs scaling up to Tank level with 14.4, and Widows/Forts having all-encompassing protection. In fact, it's worth noting that one Crab power gives about the same resistance as all of the toggles Khelds run, plus status protection, for less than half the endurance.
Lots of little things I'd probably tweak with Khelds, starting with the things I mentioned. Tweak BU to be 80%/20% and the other self/team buff powers to be even. And give status protection, even if just the basics and not exotic confuse/fear, to the armor toggles. That's the big one, considering HEATs pay 0.78 end/sec for about 35% RES, while Crabs pay 0.21 for about 35% RES and mag 8 status protection.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Dispari, did you just completely ignore the nova and dwarf forms for that analysis?
Looks like you ignored WS fluffies and eclipse as well. And stygian circle as well.
Be well, people of CoH.
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No. The Nova and Dwarf forms are more self-contained states that are fairly well-balanced as far as I'm concerned. They have specific attributes and limited powers, and are pretty easy to balance because of that. They have attributes such as high damage or high resistance + mez protection that makes them well-rounded. I don't feel that the Nova or Dwarf forms particularly need a buff, but I also wouldn't say no to it either. I'm more concerned with human forms.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Dispari, did you just completely ignore the nova and dwarf forms for that analysis?
Looks like you ignored WS fluffies and eclipse as well. And stygian circle as well. |
While the Nova form plays somewhat like a Blaster and Dwarf is more suited to Tank, the human form seems to be designed somewhat close to a Scrapper (with ranged attacks for flavor -- no worse than Fortunata or Crab), with the main failing being that they don't have any status protection.
They also pay far more for their armor powers, for no apparent reason. All of the VEATs, which also have status protection, pay half or less for full protection. Many of the VEATs also have meaningful passive powers. The biggest comparison is:
Fortification: +15% RES S/L, 25% RES F/C/E/N/T, +8.3 mag to hold/stun/sleep/immobilize, 0.21 end
Thermal Shield: +22.5% RES F/C, 0.26 end
Something seems really off there to me. HEAT toggles are designed for two protections at once, for a high cost of 0.26, while Crabs can get 3x the protection, plus status, for less cost. And it's not just crabs. As I mentioned, all of the VEATs can get all of their defensive protection for less endurance, and have status protection.
They also save heavily on slots, while HEATs are spending a ton of slots (and power picks) to outfit their human form since they need to worry about 5 or more defensive powers, not to mention still worry about outfitting the forms you mentioned, while VEATs can be done with defensive powers in about 2 or 3 powers in most cases. And generally speaking, one of those is usually passive.
And as far as the WS powers mentioned, I do feel PBs need more of a tweak than WSes. But both of them could use a small push since they're nowhere near as player or team friendly as VEATs. Khelds may be "respectable" or quite doable where they are, but they're not very popular and haven't been for a very long time. There are a lot of minor things that could be adjusted to make them a little more playable.
And this is off-topic, but as long as I'm on the subject, Dominator Build Up should be doing at least +80% (if not +100%, but that probably won't happen) considering they do the highest base damage on redside now, and exceed Tanks, Brutes, VEATs, and Stalkers who all get +80%. They also exceed HEATs who get +72%. They even slightly exceed Blasters in melee. BU for Dominators currently is a silly +68%. Their Aim should be +50% to match what Forts have, up from current +42.5%. And Fiery Embrace should be +100%. It seems their numbers are more in-line with their previous damage scales.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Honestly though, I think the problem with khelds (and especially PBs) is that they don't really feel powerful. Sure, the shapeshifts are different and cool, but they get old and just feel stupid once you realize they don't make you into an unstoppable machine of kapow. Also the power:slot ratio makes it frustrating to build a competent tri-former when you can't have everything slotted as effectively as you'd like.
It'd help loads if :
1) Khelds got 3 slots every level instead of two at the beginning
2) All powers were usable in forms. Make dwarf form similar to granite armor; make it have an inherent -DMG (but no movement / recharge debuffs!) to compensate for the huge resistances it gives or alternatively, just drop the +Resistance by a bit because now the regular armours could be stacked with this. I'd be very happy if it was "only" changed to all attacks being able to be used in all forms. Would sure be much more fun playing a dwarf kheldian with more than just 3 attacks to choose from.
Only one would be really cool, both of these together would be a dream come true... )
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
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But you seem to want human form balanced against VEATs while leaving the forms out of the balance equation. You can't do that.| No. The Nova and Dwarf forms are more self-contained states that are fairly well-balanced as far as I'm concerned. They have specific attributes and limited powers, and are pretty easy to balance because of that. They have attributes such as high damage or high resistance + mez protection that makes them well-rounded. I don't feel that the Nova or Dwarf forms particularly need a buff, but I also wouldn't say no to it either. I'm more concerned with human forms. |
The HEAT AT is balanced around use of the forms. No, I don't consider PBs balanced against WSs, but that's a different topic.
When comparing HEATs to VEATs, you MUST take the entirety of the AT, not just one aspect of it, into your balance.
To put it another way, you can choose to go human-only, I do on my WS, but you can NOT expect it to stack up to other ATs when you are choosing to ignore your high damage form and your high mitigation form.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I would have thought it played more like an Offensive Defender (or an Offender).|
Originally Posted by Dispari
While the Nova form plays somewhat like a Blaster and Dwarf is more suited to Tank, the human form seems to be designed somewhat close to a Scrapper (with ranged attacks for flavor -- no worse than Fortunata or Crab), with the main failing being that they don't have any status protection.
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Of course, with no other outside buffs and an appropriate team composition, a Kheldian, in human form, can out damage a Blaster, almost match a Tank in Resistance, and have some limited Mez protection.
I'm not sure a VEAT can do that.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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I'm not doing that exactly. More to the point, I want humans to be buffed up because they fall way, way behind VEATs. I don't expect them to be on-par with VEATs even before you consider the forms. But I do want them to be brought up a notch because they're so far behind in basically everything there is to be behind in.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
But you seem to want human form balanced against VEATs while leaving the forms out of the balance equation. You can't do that.
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Just giving them mez protection would probably be enough for me to consider playing one again.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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They get mez protection. It's called dwarf form. This has always been true but now it even acts as a breakfree.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Bill, please stop propagating this lie. Dwarf Form is not Kheldian Mezz protection. It turns off all non-dwarf powers.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
They get mez protection. It's called dwarf form. This has always been true but now it even acts as a breakfree.
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Kheldian mezz protection is in the passive Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance and is *STILL* broken.
Still here, even after all this time!
::Blinks, looks around::
Whoa, for a minute there I thought I'd stepped into a thread from last year...
::Backs slowly out of thread::
Omega Zim - lvl 50 Rad/Dark/Power Defender, Alpha Zim - lvl 50 Tri-form Peacebringer
Theta Zim - lvl 50 Tri-form Warshade, Nightshade Zim - lvl 50 Dark/Dark/Psi Defender
Omicron Zim - lvl 50 Emp/Psi/Power Defender, Scrappy Joe - lvl 50 MA/SR Scrapper
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It doesn't matter what powers it turns off. It offers the CHARACTER persistent mez protection unless detoggled by running out of endurance.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Bill, please stop propagating this lie. Dwarf Form is not Kheldian Mezz protection. It turns off all non-dwarf powers.
Kheldian mezz protection is in the passive Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance and is *STILL* broken. |
The mez protection offered from CB/DS, I agree, is useless and should be ignored.
Please note: My WS is human only. I choose to run without said potential persistent mez protection and get out of mez free card.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I agree with Bill. I've never been much of a fan of human only builds(although I have a secondary one on my PB for soloing). The Dwarf change was huge for most Kheldians. Mezzed? Out of Break Frees? Go Dwarf for a few seconds. Seems effective to me as mez protection.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Bill, please stop propagating this lie. Dwarf Form is not Kheldian Mezz protection. It turns off all non-dwarf powers.
Kheldian mezz protection is in the passive Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance and is *STILL* broken. |
When a Kheldian cannot take a boss 1 on 1 in a safeguard mission. They archtype needs a pass and buffs by the devs. There is no other archtype on hero side that is a guaranteed fail against a even conning boss in a safeguard mission, except for the Kheldian.
Warshades and Peacebringers both arent where they should be. You cant tell me that a hero playing 50 levels on any archtype is going to be truly happy with them. Just look at the VEATs in comparison to the Kheldians.
They should be better then this.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)