Kheldians need a buff pass.
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-09-12 13:27 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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My Human Only PB can solo and completely clear the Peregrine Bank safeguard (full of Malta and Carnies, Sappers and Dark Ring Mistresses) including stopping all vandals and complete all Side Missions, with a full 10 minutes to spare. The map is left an utter ghosttown...|
Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
When a Kheldian cannot take a boss 1 on 1 in a safeguard mission. They archtype needs a pass and buffs by the devs. There is no other archtype on hero side that is a guaranteed fail against a even conning boss in a safeguard mission, except for the Kheldian.
Warshades and Peacebringers both arent where they should be. You cant tell me that a hero playing 50 levels on any archtype is going to be truly happy with them. Just look at the VEATs in comparison to the Kheldians. They should be better then this. |
Not that there isn't some things I would like for Khelds to have, but they're pretty dang effective - you're doing something way wrong it seems. Head to the Kheld forums as suggested...
Again...
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| You cant tell me that a hero playing 50 levels on any archtype is going to be truly happy with them. |
Kheldians should be able to handle bosses by the 30s. It may take some inspirations for the nastier ones, but it shouldn't be insurmountable by any means. To be fair, though, in the 30s you face Shock Treatment, an Elec Brute with super high energy res, end drains, and a god mode from hell. Since Peacebringers deal energy damage... yeah.
On the topic of Kheldians and forms, I think they're interesting, but very limiting. It's not just the slot crunch, but it's how they disable outside powers. Nova Form is supposed to imitate a Blaster, yet they can't...
- use Build Up without wasting ~25% of its duration.
- use any control powers like a Blaster could. (Ex: Tesla Cage, Stunning Shot, Freeze Ray, Siren's Song, etc.)
- use any utility powers. (ex: Power Sink, Drain Psyche, Boost Range)
- use any of their melee powers.
- use any mitigation shield like Blasters can get from their Ancillary.
- stack extra mitigation from pools. (Ex: CJ, Tough, Weave)
- use control powers (Fault, Ice Patch, Stun)
- use Build Up without wasting ~25% of its duration.
- use all their mitigation powers. (Ex: Essence Boost / Reform Essence / Quantum Flight)
- Health/Stamina for extra longevity and end management.
- Swift/Hurdle/CJ for combat speed and mobility.
I wish there was a bit more leniency on what powers were usable in forms. For example, I don't see any reason why BU shouldn't be usable in either form (esp Nova). Maybe allow a utility power (like CP) in Nova while a survivability power (Essence Boost) in Dwarf. (Maybe do the same type of thing with pools?) What I probably would have done if I was designing Kheldians was not to make forms give extra attacks/powers, but that they would allow certain powers to be usable in that particular form.
Nova Form would no longer give Bolt, Blast, Scatter, and Detonation. Instead, it would allow the human blast powers (Gleaming Bolt, Glinting Eye, Gleaming Blast, etc) to be used in Nova Form. Likewise, Dwarf would be allowed to use powers such as Radiant Strike, Incandescent Strike, and Solar Flare. This would mean less powers need to be slotted, and you wouldn't have to skimp as much on human powers if you want to make a solid Tri-Form.
I know that it's not likely at all, but I keep wishing that's how they were made. I'm a sucker for hybrids. (I loved DAoC Friars, if anyone remembers them.) So I figured I'd like Kheldians as well... sadly not. They're too dang clunky and restrictive (build wise) for me.
Note: My Kheldian experience is a lvl12ish Warshade and a lvl33ish Peacebringer (SOs/generic IOs), so I'm not an expert. However, I did do a decent chunk of research (guides, power descriptions, videos, etc) on how they work.
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This has always been my big problem. I generally enjoyed my triform Warshade in theory, but...|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
A Blaster can never stop and say "I need status protection now" like a Kheldian does, but the necessity to form change to do almost anything other than blast / tank (status protection) is very annoying. Want to use BU? Drop form, BU, form change. Need some extra control? Drop form, use control, shape change again. Need some utility? Drop form, use utility, shape change. In my (albeit limited) experience, that adds a lot of extra cast time, which can really bog down fights. There is absolutely no fluidity to me.
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HUMAN! Gravitic Emanation. DWARF! Sunless Mire. HUMAN! Sunless Mire. NOVA! Some blasts. HUMAN! Stygian Circle.
Got REALLY REALLY old. It's like the redraw effect on weapon sets times twenty.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Yes. It does suck. Transformations should be instantaneous. It's one of the reasons my PB was deleted at 50 and again at 30.| Got REALLY REALLY old. It's like the redraw effect on weapon sets times twenty. |
It's why my WS is human only. I like running in dwarf form. I like blasting in nova. But the whole setup is so painfully inefficient that it loses its fun/cool factor VERY quickly.
Be well, people of CoH.
Well, I can't argue with you all dissing the Shape-Changing mechanics... They're clunky, starve you of slots, and I dislike them fairly strongly.
As Sarrate said, the shape-changing would have worked much better if all the forms shared certain powers (and perhaps disallowing a few for thematic reasons - Novas can't do Solar Flare Footstomps) with the forms basically acting as modifiers of power (Nova ups Damage and reduces defenses, Dwarf does the opposite, while Human is the middle)
IMHO, of course...
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That'd help, but it would still be clunky. That would cost 3x the button clicks (deform, power, reform) and the lag associated with them compared to other ATs. Would be better, but still clunky.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Transformations should be instantaneous.
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Blasters can't get +damage, +Damage Resistance to all types, and +Mez protection, just for having other team mates on the team either. That is where the Kheldian's true strength is.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Yes, I'm aware that Kheldians get a wide variety of powers to choose from. A Blaster can never stop and say "I need status protection now" like a Kheldian does, but the necessity to form change to do almost anything other than blast / tank (status protection) is very annoying. Want to use BU? Drop form, BU, form change. Need some extra control? Drop form, use control, shape change again. Need some utility? Drop form, use utility, shape change. In my (albeit limited) experience, that adds a lot of extra cast time, which can really bog down fights. There is absolutely no fluidity to me.
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With the team that my Warshade routinely runs with, he has +20% Damage resistance to everything, and has +80% damage. He doesn't need to change forms to deal decent damage or to be able to take it.
My biggest complaint with the Warshade is the fact that I need a living opponent near me to rez. They don't normally last that long with that team.
Remember, the Blue side was intended more for teaming than solo play. The Kheldians are a very team oriented AT.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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And why any AT should be shoehorned into HAVING to team is beyond me. Since VEATs are the parralel, I'll use them as my example. On teams, VEATs are great. Beyond great. They have a lot of team buffs and suchnot. The important thing, though?|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Blasters can't get +damage, +Damage Resistance to all types, and +Mez protection, just for having other team mates on the team either. That is where the Kheldian's true strength is.
With the team that my Warshade routinely runs with, he has +20% Damage resistance to everything, and has +80% damage. He doesn't need to change forms to deal decent damage or to be able to take it. My biggest complaint with the Warshade is the fact that I need a living opponent near me to rez. They don't normally last that long with that team. Remember, the Blue side was intended more for teaming than solo play. The Kheldians are a very team oriented AT. |
They are still as good solo
Now, HEATs. For the record, I highly respect Bill Z for being far more clued up on the number side of things than I could ever be, and more power knowledgable. However, I disagree with the 'Dwarf Form is the mez shield'. It restricts you to a form with limited attacks, and no access to things like Stamina. It's on par for crippling factor with Granite. Nova is similar, while it can be very devastating, no stamina, no shields, and the ever present problem with Kheldians, no extra slots.
Yes, Hero side is more team oriented. And it would be silly to be whining about, say, not being able to clear whole missions on high-diff and high numbers solo without breaking a sweat. But I know why my PB is languishing at lvl 19, even with dual builds. The play-style is too constrictive and too clunky.
Problem is? This will be the exact same sort of arguement as is happening over Granite armour and Stone armour as a whole. Some people love it as it is, others absolutely hate it. Will it get changed? No idea.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Dwarf and Nova both have a +recovery buff that's only 10% lower than Stamina... (15% vs. 25%)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I disagree with the 'Dwarf Form is the mez shield'. It restricts you to a form with limited attacks, and no access to things like Stamina... Nova is similar, while it can be very devastating, no stamina
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Actually, Blasters can get +dmg quite easily from three different sources teamed or solo: Defiance, Aim, Build Up.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Blasters can't get +damage, +Damage Resistance to all types, and +Mez protection, just for having other team mates on the team either. That is where the Kheldian's true strength is.
With the team that my Warshade routinely runs with, he has +20% Damage resistance to everything, and has +80% damage. He doesn't need to change forms to deal decent damage or to be able to take it. My biggest complaint with the Warshade is the fact that I need a living opponent near me to rez. They don't normally last that long with that team. Remember, the Blue side was intended more for teaming than solo play. The Kheldians are a very team oriented AT. |
At any rate, in my opinion (putting aside balance for the moment), I don't feel Peacebringer's inherent, Cosmic Balance, is strong enough to outweigh the nuances of the AT. I'm not saying that CB is weak on a full team or that it needs to be buffed (it could be argued its strong enough to necessitate weak solo performance) - I'm saying that the mechanics of the AT are simply that clunky to me. I could probably make an all human (or mostly human) build and enjoy it more - but that tells me the forms are broken.
Again, that last paragraph was just my own opinion. I like hybrids and I want to like Kheldians. At this point, however, I just can't.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Dwarf and Nova both have a +recovery buff that's only 10% lower than Stamina... (15% vs. 25%)
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On top of that, it means the player has to use 2-3 times as many slots - slotting Nova, Dwarf, and/or Stamina for End Mod. That's a lot more investment for less performance on an AT that is already starved for slots. I consider the recovery buff to be nice at low levels, but eventually a burden at higher levels. (Warshades are a little different due to Stygian Circle vs Peacebringers with CP.)
Hmm, I just had a thought... what if the forms gave a temp power (limited to 1 per character) with a long / no time limit recovery buff? It would still be weaker than Stamina, but at least it wouldn't require as many slots. Sorry, I've just been in brainstorm mode since I wrote that post and I'm kind of thinking out loud.
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Which a Warshade can quite easily out do with a single power; Sunless Mire. Which still puts the Warshade beyond the Blaster, damage wise.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Actually, Blasters can get +dmg quite easily from three different sources teamed or solo: Defiance, Aim, Build Up.
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| At any rate, in my opinion (putting aside balance for the moment), I don't feel Peacebringer's inherent, Cosmic Balance, is strong enough to outweigh the nuances of the AT. I'm not saying that CB is weak on a full team or that it needs to be buffed (it could be argued its strong enough to necessitate weak solo performance) - I'm saying that the mechanics of the AT are simply that clunky to me. I could probably make an all human (or mostly human) build and enjoy it more - but that tells me the forms are broken. |
I do agree that the form change mechanic is a tad clunky. Which is probably why I only have the Dwarf-form slotted as a back-up for the Tank. The Human-form has done a remarkable job of keeping up with the Blasters and Scrappers.
I do have a Peacebringer that is tri-form and I've used all three forms in battle before. That took a lot of attention and rapid button pushing. I found it easier, if a tad slower, to just fight in human-form with that one too. Or, start out in Nova then go human at some point during a prolonged fight.
So, what was the point I was making again? I forgot...
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
I just want to use build up while in forms.