Criticisms & Praise Parades

Moving this discussion out of Sorah's thread, I'm interested in people's opinions about posters giving "constructive" criticism to artworks posted here. Especially I'm interested in the opinions of contributing artists but anyone's is welcome.

It is my personal opinion that, by virtue of posting something in a public forum, you are welcoming public opinion whether solicited or not. While standard civility should keep you from saying "That piece looks like a poop", I don't see where commenting on flaws in the piece should be cause for alarm.

On the other hand, some might say that the threat of criticism would keep some people from posting art here. To make the forum as welcoming as possible, you shouldn't criticize the things posted unless someone specifically asks for it.

Any thoughts?

Personally, I don't really care. I can decide for myself when someone's being constructive and helpful, and when I feel they've moved into picking nits or just being a dillweed.

Either way, the fact of the matter is I'm way harder on my own work than almost anyone else could ever be.

From the other thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caemgen Wow, I've spent about 15 minutes starting about 4 different replies and then self censoring each and every one of them. All I'm going to say is: Sorah, you've got some great pieces both here and on your DA page. When I do break down and commission some pieces I'll definitely give you a consider... As for prices: I think whenever anyone is buying anything they should comparison shop and go where they think their money is best spent for what they want. As for criticism: I'm a newb here and just basically have an outsider looking in perspective but I do find this board a bet of a love in where negative comments really don't seem welcome. Personally I would prefer a bit more openess about how piece x, y or z could be improved and such (once thinking I had enough talent to be an artist I still find myself interested in those who are and their techniques and such) but basically I figure that if the choice is between a love fest with no criticism and a tear down everything we see fest... Well then let the dirty hippies win!

That part is true and I don't see why negative comments should be tolerated.
Criticism, when constructive, is neither negative or positive. There's a big difference between "That looks like crap." and "Your perspective on X seems to be off."

Warning, the conclusion is at the end, if you feel like skipping to that


Communication is an interesting thing.

When communicating, there's the sender and the receiver (oh this sounds technical already), the sender of course sends the message, the receiver gets the message.
There's where it get interesting. This because in only very, very, very rare occasions does the receiver get the crystal clear message, every 0 and 1's in exactly the same place as the sender has them. This because the receiver processes and interprets the message. Based on past experiences and expectations.

That said, there are different parts of a message:
1) the body, what is being said
2) the delivery, how it's being said
3) the intention, why it's being said
4) what was actually meant, wha.. you know what I mean..

What the receiver gets is 1 and 2, from which the receiver tries to determine 4, and possibly 3.

So yes, just pointing out that communication isn't as easy as we all make it seem to be.





On to what I really think and want to say: my opinion.

When something is posted on these forums, I feel free to comment on it, positive or negative. Freedom of speech within the boundaries of the EULA.
So yes, if I see a piece and I want to say "that rocks" I'll just say it. If I think something is "a piece of <self censor>" I feel free to say so in a way that's within the EULA. I'd have to be in a really, really foul mood to actually say that too
IF something is bad, I either take the time to point out what it is about it, or I don't bother posting. IF I do point out what's bad about it, I choose to do so in a civil and constructive way that makes it clear that it's my view and preferably with some praise to soften the pill.
instead of "those legs are too short"
I say: "it looks to me like those legs might be too short"

So yes, I say what I think when I feel like saying it.
Yes, I sugar coat it to bring it as positively as possible as that's how I'd like to get critique, so that's how I give it.



So, long story short on my opinion:
Give praise and point out the things you think could be improved upon (for this piece or a future one), but do it in a nice way.

Edit: so I agree with Red Valkyrja

Pers'nally I don't critique much because I'm so much not an artistic person I almost wrap around the other side - I can mostly tell when something is off but I can only very rarely put into words what it is, unless it's obvious. I knows what I likes though, and I'll praise that.

Other than that, +n to the civility thing.

I think it depends on the purpose of the art. Was it a freebie an artist did? Is the artist looking for critique? Did the artist post it themselves? Offering feedback on something an artist whips out for fun and posts is magnitudes different than criticizing a piece of art some one posts that they had commissioned an artist for for instance.

In one case it comes across as helpful commentary, in the other, as a preteneous ***** telling someone that they wasted their money for something they are likely very happy with.

Criticism is a tricky thing: in order to be effective you can't sugar-coat it, nor can you tie it to a brick and aim for the recipient's head. You have to be firm without being condescending. Blunt and tactful. Ecetera, ecetera. But you also have to cross your fingers that the recipient of your critique is mature enough to see it for what it is and not mistake it for a personal attack.


In most cases when an artist responds poorly to honest critique it's because they're young, not fully mature, and are high on the ego buzz of having people praise them for their work. It only gets worse when they acquire a fanbase, which will pump torrents of sychophantic praise directly into the artist's ego, causing even more swelling. In these cases a simple statement such as "Not bad, but your foreshortening here is a little wonky" will cause the hive to erupt, as the artist and her leigons will attack the person viciously, using everything from "I don't see you do anything better!" to unflattering descriptions of the person's mother. The best defense is to simply ignore the rabid assault (as taking it personally is the same mistake the artist did in the first place) and move on.

It has been a recurring nightmare of mine that this forum turn into one of these ego-hives. It's not likely to happen (too many wise and mature people here) but the nonstop tides of praise many posted pics recieve still makes me nervous. Call me paranoid, my new meds have made me a bit twitchy.

Again, constructive criticism has to strike a balance between sugar-coating and brick-delivery. If someone tries to be fair but ends up falling a bit toward the brick side, it's not a reason to break out the tar and feathers. We're all mature enough here to survive something like that, right? Of course we are.



For more information on artists who totally flip out when given honest critique, consult your local Google for Encyclopedia Dramatica's deviantArt portal. Please bear in mind the site can be dangerous to the health of the easily offended, and it is generally not safe for work. Viewer discretion is advised.

I totally see your point and do agree with it. Somebody who's an expert in the field has an opinion that probably will bear more weight, being more informed. I'm not arguing against that at all.

What ticks me off is the idea that a non-artist's opinion should be dismissed out of hand simply because they're not an artist. Going back to your plumbing example, the actual plumber is probably going to get it right. But that doesn't mean that the non-plumber is automatically always wrong. I may not be an expert but I can tell that the seal around the drain has sprung a leak or if one of the pipes is broken. I still have helpful commentary to add to the discussion.

I welcome critiquing of all my work and actively encourage it and really don't get enough of it for me. None of you has ever said anything worse than what I already think, because I'm way harder on myself than any outside person.

For around here, I'll just go with the flow. If people don't want critiques, then I won't give any. I don't have the time or energy to change the mood of the entire forum =P

As for who it comes from, I KNOW there are people completely and utterly qualified to critique art who aren't active artists. They DO still need an understanding of artwork, and yes, you can study the foundation and theories of good art without being a master of it. You can study and learn the fundamentals of composition, contrast, perspective, form, etc. and give really valuable input on artwork and not have the manual control to maybe PRODUCE masterpieces.

I don't think a person's ability to critique should be based on their portfolio, but of their knowledge of the foundations, principles, theories, and all that.

Note: I take criticisms on my work. As an artist you will always have detractors. It's one of the first things I was taught and it's still something that my teachers tell me every day.

I pride myself in my ability to take negative comments and it's one of the reasons that my teachers have told me I'm a good student in that I do not sit there and argue "bad art."

However, with that said, to the discussion of weight of opinion...I'm going to take Dick Giordano's criticisms, Jim Lee's criticisms much more seriously than someone off the street (especially if they make no distinction between a commercial artist and an Artist)

My only objection to what went on in my little thread was that it was unsolicited for a post that was, in my opinion, pretty benign. It was an ad, nothing more. Yet, it devolved into a discussion on someone's take on the difference between an artist is (commercial artist) and an Artist. I'm the former. Not the latter. I do this for a living. I charge what I will.

"I can't afford a Rolls Royce...doesn't mean I'm going to write them a letter telling them that their prices are ridiculous. I just don't buy the car." While my art may not be Rolls Royce, the meaning still applies.

However, with that said, this is the interwebs. I'm never on these boards cause I don't really play the game anymore.

Eddy-Swan (here and on DA) is one of the most open-artists I've met ON the internet in that when he asks for criticisms, he takes them well and NOT ONLY that, but he will actually apply a lot of the critiques. (Random lovin' on Eddy <3)

I've actually been thinking about this subject a lot lately, myself. It's part of why I've been rather quiet here the past few weeks, as I don't really feel all that right posting things if I'm not entirely sure if I personally feel I'm doing what fits my ethical and moral guidelines. It's almost certainly the former then it is the latter, as if that was in question, I'd probably never post here again (I don't tend to question my morals. There aren't that many of them, after all!).

Essentially, is it beneficial to not only the artist but to furthering conversation and discussion for me to post only generally positive remarks? Or should I try to be more objective in things, and leave my personal opinions and feelings at the door? Is it right for me, as a non-artist, to point out when I see some stuff that could be improved in a piece, or should I let the artist find and develop their own style without my input whatsoever? And is it right for me to post general approval only?

Currently, I'm trying to be a bit more helpful when I do post here (or, at least, that's the intent). If I see something that seems a little off/odd, I'm going to be honest about it. Because after much review, I don't really mind when people point out flaws in my writing (one of the few things I take pride in - feel free to laugh at my work on dA, what little I actually have there) if they do it in a respectful fashion. And I don't think I've ever been disrespectful to people here, unless I for some crazy reason felt it was called for. If I have, heck. I'd love to hear about it, and either explain my case or apologize.

I'll continue to treat people, 'professionals' or not, the way I, myself, would like to be treated. I don't think it should really matter, in the long run... and, infact, feel that the layman has probably the most valuable thing to offer the professional in terms of opinion: A point of view unclouded by one's personal artistic preferences and style. The problem I've often found when conversing primarily with writers, is that most of the suggestions would be how their style dictates something should have been done. While I valued the input I've recieved, it rarely resulted in preventing me from advancing my personal writing.

The humble reader, who cannot write, but can and does appreciate a solid piece of literary work, almost always had better questions and insights about my writing. And usually brought up things I never would have thought about, and nobody else had bothered to point out before that upon review made a bit of sense.

Or maybe that's just my personal ethics coming out. Every opinion, to me, is valid and of equal importance to consider. When sought, or when stumbled upon.

...I'm going to stop rambling now and probably go find something to eat. >_>

I've come here before looking for critique when I've been starting out. and I got a very good response. 4 or 5 people gave me some very good lesson's. I also open critique on any piece I submit on DA that isn't a commission. criticism helps an artist grow and as I seek to make a career out of my art I love getting critique. there have been times I have not taken it well because I misread an artist's intention's behind it. but that critique turned out to some of the best help I had ever got.

I think the big thing that most artist's are afraid of here is you make critique acceptable people will come along and dump on the work because they think it's helpful. I used to get that all the time at home because my family thought they were being helpful 'I've seen you do better" "that's pretty crappy compared to "blah blah blah' needless to say I stopped showing them My work lol! since then I've learned that there are people who are going to give you criticism that you can ignore. but at the end of the day A regular person can tell you when your hand's need work, one eye looks too far off centre etc. simple anatomy is often a very easy thing for a regular person to pick up on.

at the end of the day though, I don't post my work here to be critiqued I post it on Deviant art for that purpose. not to say i wouldn't accept it here I just never expect it to come from here. this place has always seemed a place of well meaning and good intent and I think that's why it such a thriving community I'd hate to see everyone on here become jerk's :P but if you feel you can offer some helpful suggestions on someones work. I don't see the harm in it. if it's put nicely. if an artist is to be successful (like sorah) you need to learn to take negative comment's and just wear them. but i cant speak for everyone on that subject I don't know each artist's reason for doing art, some people Might just like doing it for a hobby. and that's fine.

In any event I never give public critique on commissioned work. Someone has payed good money for it and I certainly don't want to spoil it for them, not only that I don't want to discourage other people from buying there product. I don't know the circumstances behind alot of people's commission's But I know I've needed the money they provide lately.

which lead's me on to pricing. to me you put your price on what your willing to work for. for me I organize my prices so they equate to an hourly rate. I estimate how long it will take me to do something, for example My bust's and charge accordingly. you get into trouble if you charge for a finished piece. I found when I did everything for a fairly cheap price I'd spend weeks on a picture for an amount that was not worth it at all for me. which led to all sorts of problems.

at the end of the day though its what your willing to pay for that matters I charge what I'm willing to work for. you either pay it or find someone cheaper. same goes with sorah same goes with anyone.

anyway, there's no rules saying not to critique here but at the end of the day it's not always going to be appreciated so bare that in mind. im certainly always willing to take critique in a personal message.

Outside point of view, so take it for what it is worth.

To those of us who can not draw well the ability to bring in game heros and villians to life in ink and paint is worth praise despite any flaws that may be seen by a trained peer.