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I don't know that that's true. I know I've certainly had a lot of interaction with people who I'm drawing for, ranging from "I'd like a pose sorta like this" to "I think you've misplaced the eye given that angle of view" to "those boobs aren't big enough".|
Originally Posted by Bayani
That's not going to happen around here though, as it seems most collectors don't share my views or methods, are content to toss their cash and screenies over to the artist and let it ride. And that's perfectly fine. There are plenty of resources out there for folks who want to delve into more detailed, technical discussions.
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And I always tell people not to worry that they're bothering me too much because I know the more they're picky, the happier they'll be in the end, and that's my ultimate goal.
I think your approach is more prevalent than you think, it's just that it happens behind the scenes.
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They really weren't!|
Originally Posted by The_Foo
"those boobs aren't big enough"
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<.<
>.>
Um, what I mean is, I like to give the artist a wide space to come up with something they think fits and looks cool.
Though in one of my commissions the artist had a great idea that really fit the character, but not the composition and we talked about that for a bit before deciding to keep the original (really cool) idea in place.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
Oh, I didn't mean you, specifically. I meant everyone who's commissioned me EVER!
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You'll never get that complaint from me, I'm always worried instead that my petite girls will be drawn with excessive endowment.|
Originally Posted by The_Foo
"those boobs aren't big enough"
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Amusingly, in this case it was the tail that got exaggerated.
I'm sure I'd be considered one of "those praise paraders". I can't help it. I like art. All kinds. I can't do it myself but I know when I like something. Something my mom actually said to me alot (usually related to dinner) - "If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all." So quite like tutor king, if I don't like it I don't comment, and most times I'm just too lazy to comment. Why exactly I commented here... not sure.
<_<
>_>
<_<
*Where'd I put that donut?*
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Which only leads to people who don't know that they're doing something poorly until it's too late to fix it.|
Originally Posted by PowerStream
"If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all."
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Of course mothers always like to say that line and follow it with "Honest is the best policy", which is rather contradictory as you're not being very honest if you're simply withholding the information.
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I guess what I took out of that was when you interact with people try to be polite and decent. I can critique something without being a jerk. Plain and simple. Some things i don't critique because I'm not at all an authority on something. I will praise something that I like because I AM an authority on what I like. |
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Which only leads to people who don't know that they're doing something poorly until it's too late to fix it.
Of course mothers always like to say that line and follow it with "Honest is the best policy", which is rather contradictory as you're not being very honest if you're simply withholding the information. |
It's funny to me when I see someone look at an art piece and say "Well this is wrong and you should have done this or that." What if that artist WANTED it that way. I'm pretty sure some people didn't immediately look at Picasso's work and say "OH WOW That's an awesome place to put an eye!" BUT I guarantee you that SOME did say that.
I think I've gotten myself off-track. Criticism is different from critiquing something. When you criticize something, in my mind, you are basically just pointing out negatives. Critiquing something involves suggestions on how you would go about doing something differently. Criticism is unsolicited and critiques are usually solicited or inferred as a solicitation.
The "praise parades" that go on here are because people like what they like. Maybe it's the artist they like as a person. Maybe it is the style, color or whatever. But they like it. And usually it's easier to point out the things they like. Maybe, just maybe, they can over look the flaws they see because the positives they see out weigh them. If I came in every day and had a post about the things I didn't like that day, soon a lot of people would just quit listening to anything I said. Some of you probably have already.
Also my mom never used the "Honesty is the Best Policy" line. She knew sometimes it was better for someone to NOT know something than for it to cause uneeded damage to that person. Sometimes all it takes is a snide comment for someone to have their world crushed. That happens daily and she and I don't feel we need to add to it. So we keep our mouths closed, put our hand out and do what we can when we can.
It's late and I'm really really babbling now. Plus I realize I'm talking to the internet where anything I say can and will be twisted into some crazy thing like "PowerStream endorses eating puppies and kitties." Quote me on that please.
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No, things are definitely wrong or right when viewed within the proper context. There is a context for realistic rendering which involves techniques which have been developed over hundreds of years. There are things such as bad perspective, incorrect anatomy, etc.| Which I would agree with when it comes to things that are impacting someone's life. But art is subjective. Period. Maybe someone didn't use a certain perspective because they didn't want to. Maybe Picasso just had bad eye sight. No one can say it's wrong or right. |
There are traditions apart from realism of course. But let's keep it real here: If you want to draw a kickass picture of superman fighting the Hulk, you're not going to turn to Dadaism or Abstract Expressionism.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Sorry i edited my post after you quoted the old one....|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
No, things are definitely wrong or right when viewed within the proper context. There is a context for realistic rendering which involves techniques which have been developed over hundreds of years. There are things such as bad perspective, incorrect anatomy, etc.
There are traditions apart from realism of course. But let's keep it real here: If you want to draw a kickass picture of superman fighting the Hulk, you're not going to turn to Dadaism or Abstract Expressionism. |
But why can't I have a kickass picture of superman fighting the Hulk in those styles? That's all I'm saying. It may not be cool to you and that's fine. I totally appreciate and respect that opinion. But if I had my picture done in Dadaism(I'll have to look that up later) and you said "THAT STINKS you have no right to ever do art again." Then I don't agree with nor respect that. Again that's my opinion. But if you said "Hmmm I don't think I like that style, I'd have gone such and such route." Then that's a different ballgame.
Not sure if I said it earlier or if I did and edited it out, but there's a way to approach things that are more effective. I don't always expect people to agree with me or like me or my opinion. I do hope they respect it though and don't bash me for it. Probably I have too much hope that people can be decent. I do know, that as a general rule, they don't as witnessed on many internet forums, even these. It's why I tend to lurk instead of contribute. Oh but I will agree that you said "in the proper context" and I think that is what a lot of people forget.
I understand what you are saying about the long established techniques and agreed upon perspective etc etc. But to say there is only one right way to do that is a little silly, to me. Look around you. How much around you is the same? Not saying there aren't things but in nature things are not identical. The rules aren't always set in stone. It's art. It's subjective. For the most part I don't see anything on this site that is being done for an anatomy text book. I forget now but one person did ask for critiques on a project for their art class recently and even I put in a comment or two. But interestingly a lot of the critics saw different things that were "problems". That's odd. If there is only one set of rules, why didn't they all only see the same things as wrong? Because they are human and only certain things bothered them while others didn't.
Sorry. I'm not sure why this subject has affected me so when I am not directly affected by any of the critiques and praise parades here. I do deal with this daily at my job. I work in a photo studio and we have some Art Directors that gives us info and then hate everything we do. While others never change a thing. But of the ones that change everything, only a few convey their dislike in a fashion that is off-putting. While others can have things changed a hundred times and it's not an issue.
Just made this for fun...seeing that we all need some. I'm glad we all can come together and discuss issues, while taking everyone's opinion in consideration. This is a great group of people...amazing artists, and those that appreciate their work.
Thanks for the inspiration to create...stuffz.
xoxo
Pyro
That due to this post: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...54#post2223854
((Climbs off his high horse and supplicates himself before his anonymous correspondant.))
Please forgive me. I am so very sorry. It will never happen again.
((wonders if they got the sarcasm or not...))
Well, ok, it probably will... But I will promise everyone one thing - I will always be willing to put my name on my words and not insult, criticise, besmerch, defame, taunt or be negative in any way behind a shield of anonymity.
Mind you, I do not mind the negative reputation... I love the fact that it currently reads "Caemgen has a little shameless behaviour in his past." I mean seriously, how classic is that??? If I could swap out the Trainee under my avatar and replace it with that I would do it in a heartbeat...
But I must admit I find it totally amusing that from a discussion which has been suprisingly civil regarding praise and criticism that there are those who not only feel the need to be critical but feel the need to do it in hiding.
Edited to add this PS - Pyro, if I was a Hippy I would absolutely think the above art was the greatest!! Not being a hippy it's still very well done, just not something that speaks to me!
LOL! I didnt know you could leave comments when repping people!
cause I didnt know how to give rep points
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Can anyone tell me if there has ever been a post with this message (not exact words) in response to any art done on these boards?|
Originally Posted by PowerStream
"THAT STINKS you have no right to ever do art again."
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Because basically, I see well mannered posts that point out flaws to be corrected.
And it seems that the argument for the praise parades and against feedback/critique seems to be those "that sucks!" style responses.
And quite frankly, I think that argument is rather weak and not relevant to these boards.
I also shudder to think of the community where such posts are the norm.
What I do respect is the comments of the artists saying "I'm not looking for critique, I can see for myself what's wrong with it" fair enough.
Though if I feel like taking the time to point out a few things that in my opinion could be improved in a future piece, then I'll do so unless specifically stated that it's not wanted. (or I happen to remember said artist doesn't like it)
The posting an "I have this commissioned piece that I want to show off, it's done by Mysterious Stranger X" is also one of those things that I don't feel critique/feedback is desired.
On the other hand "This piece was done by a close friend of mine, have a look!" is one of those gray areas. The artist is a close friend, so feedback could easily be passed on, especially when brought right and with the appropriate praise too.
So all in all, I reserve the right to comment politely on a piece unless the artist specifically states his or her preference.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
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Don't feel bad... I don't either. Until it was mentioned on another thread, I thought the green lights had something to do with how much you were online or something ^.^;;;
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Originally Posted by Eddy_Swan
LOL! I didnt know you could leave comments when repping people!
cause I didnt know how to give rep points |
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And I completely agree with this. But one thing I think everyone forgets is that meaning and intonation do not translate over written medium very well. You may have the best intentions in your critique but they may not come across that way.|
Originally Posted by Ghost
So all in all, I reserve the right to comment politely on a piece unless the artist specifically states his or her preference.
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I used the "That sucks" line as an example. I never said it has happened here, though I have no doubt it has. And I think the "coughJuggerthacough" comment proves that they are out there just maybe not as blatant as "That sucks!" but the meaning is there.
I was once under the opinion that anything posted in a "Hey, Look At My Art" thread was open to critique. That's why I post my art, I would like pointers on how to get better, I figured that's what other artists are looking for too. Then I got burned a few times. I offered up the "praise sandwich" (this is good, this could work better if you did this, this is good) on a few threads and got tore a new one by the artists in question and their groupies.
I realize that I'm not a professional, nor is my art all that great or highly sought after, but I do have a number of art and design classes under my belt, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about occasionally. But nowadays, I just offer up critique to those artists who specifically ask, "Hey TL, what do you think?". Otherwise, I'm Mr. Jokey. If all they want is "ZOMG, that is Soooooo kewl!" they have plenty of others that can do it for them. I'm here to learn.
TL
Powerstream--
I think you are misunderstanding the Juggertha comment. I don't think it was mentioned to imply that his work sucks. Rather, of all the posters I've run across on these forums Juggertha is the least responsive to criticism of his work and the most demanding of proper "etiquette" when adressing him. I think that's why Suichi mentioned it.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Ok then if that's the case I totally didn't get it.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Powerstream--
I think you are misunderstanding the Juggertha comment. I don't think it was mentioned to imply that his work sucks. Rather, of all the posters I've run across on these forums Juggertha is the least responsive to criticism of his work and the most demanding of proper "etiquette" when adressing him. I think that's why Suichi mentioned it. |
i attributed it to Lazerus' line of "Which only leads to people who don't know that they're doing something poorly until it's too late to fix it." That is probably my reading into it more than was there.
I don't like that the quick replies don't show me who they actually replied to.
There is something to say about preferred style, anyone whose looked through my collection will notice I'm much more a fan of manga/anime styles than realistic or comic ones, and have been accused at least twice of not knowing what 'real art' is :7
I so agree with the "stylistic choice" thing being used as a shield. And yes, there is a touch of hypocrisy in my saying that because its more or less my answer when asked about my drawings' huge heads. But... I love them! I love huge heads and hair. Its pleasing to me and I like to keep them. I do pretty short torsos on chickies too but... its another thing that I've just come to like.
But, I don't want that to become a crutch or a shortcoming, so I really enjoy that my courses are keeping me far away from my comfort zones. It can be frustrating... except that now I can surprise myself when I start gradually getting the hang of things I NEVER thought I'd be any good at in the least.
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Originally Posted by PowerStream
I think I've gotten myself off-track. Criticism is different from critiquing something. When you criticize something, in my mind, you are basically just pointing out negatives. Critiquing something involves suggestions on how you would go about doing something differently. Criticism is unsolicited and critiques are usually solicited or inferred as a solicitation.
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Originally Posted by PowerStream
Not sure if I said it earlier or if I did and edited it out, but there's a way to approach things that are more effective. I don't always expect people to agree with me or like me or my opinion. I do hope they respect it though and don't bash me for it. Probably I have too much hope that people can be decent. I do know, that as a general rule, they don't as witnessed on many internet forums, even these. It's why I tend to lurk instead of contribute. Oh but I will agree that you said "in the proper context" and I think that is what a lot of people forget.
I understand what you are saying about the long established techniques and agreed upon perspective etc etc. But to say there is only one right way to do that is a little silly, to me. Look around you. How much around you is the same? Not saying there aren't things but in nature things are not identical. The rules aren't always set in stone. It's art. It's subjective. For the most part I don't see anything on this site that is being done for an anatomy text book. I forget now but one person did ask for critiques on a project for their art class recently and even I put in a comment or two. But interestingly a lot of the critics saw different things that were "problems". That's odd. If there is only one set of rules, why didn't they all only see the same things as wrong? Because they are human and only certain things bothered them while others didn't. |
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Originally Posted by PowerStream
I really think I'm done with this topic. I actually am just feeling down. I think there is a time and place for critiques and there is a way to do them without just being rude. That's how I try to do them and that's all I can do. |
While there are people here that are not flexible and cannot take critiquing of there work, I have seen others that post critiques that just by their choice of words, everything comes off as rude.
You should write more things late at night.
Thanks Red. I guess I've always had a problem with someone putting someone else down just for the sake of argument. So I think it still gets to me. I usually am better at just ignoring it and going on with my life but for whatever reason this one topic struck a chord.
I know I may sound like I'm trying to be "politically correct" or whatever but I do try to have values. I have a son that I want to instill those same values to. I want him to know he can stand up for what he feels is right but he MUST always look at the other sides viewpoint first. But he also must know when what he feels is right will damage someone else then he needs to step back.
Ironically the thread that got me posting is the CPCC(by the way Red - get to work on your entry) run by Nazhgul and he critiques everything. But he does so in a constructive way and to me, again, that makes the difference.
And sorry for the edits. I start typing and later read what I typed and think, "What the heck am I trying to say?"
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Originally Posted by Suichiro
Style is something that you do purposely because you enjoy the visual aspect of twisting the normal into something else.
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My style is Golden Age Post Modern Deco-esque with Liefeld influences.
TL
Your style is delightful, TL. Unlike Liefeld's. Nuuuuuuuuu.... Liefeld! XO
http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
I'm not an artist, but i love art. I enjoy looking at art, but some details go by me completly since i can't draw. I've read some comments on these boards which made me go "oh heck, i would never have noticed that". I do tend to comment on some things tho, like if i think proportions are wrong or larger details like that cause those are pretty easy to spot. To me it's mostly a matter of art style rather than things actually wrong in with the piece. And due to that i often just post "i like it!" and not post at all if i don't like it cause i don't wanna be mean
(altho don't take it as all i don't post in, i hate).
And i'm a complete sucker for art of my character(s). I'd prob bow down and worship any artists whos drawn any of mine