I don't think people should give critiques here in the forums unless the artist okays it. As with any large group of very different people, going by accepted unwritten policy is best, and this place seems more toward bolstering the artists.
Deviant Art? Whole different story, that is an art website (containing many forms of art, not just drawn/digital), so critiques should be expected even if you don't put the advanced critique option on.
However, this is a forum for City of Heroes, not a forum to post a portfolio of your work. This is the fanart section of that forum. It's a little more focused than the rest of the forum, but IMO it is still not geared toward critiques, either by intention of the rednames or by unwritten policy of the community that posts here.
If an artist opens themselves up to critiques, that is a completely different beast. If they don't... leave it out or PM it to them instead of letting the whole forum see it. You can delete PMs that you don't want. You can't delete replies in your threads that aren't wanted.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I dismiss folks oponions out of hand if they aren't a fellow artist , I don't really care about the quality of their work so much as that they Draw and are willing to post their works to be looked over . I will also pay attention to anyone that redlines a sketch I posted (I figure if they take the time to make a redline on a pic and post a link then they are at least somewhat serious about discussing the piece and not just joe useless stopping by plus I can then easily visualise what the heck they are babbling on about .)
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Originally Posted by Frost
I totally see your point and do agree with it. Somebody who's an expert in the field has an opinion that probably will bear more weight, being more informed. I'm not arguing against that at all.
What ticks me off is the idea that a non-artist's opinion should be dismissed out of hand simply because they're not an artist. Going back to your plumbing example, the actual plumber is probably going to get it right. But that doesn't mean that the non-plumber is automatically always wrong. I may not be an expert but I can tell that the seal around the drain has sprung a leak or if one of the pipes is broken. I still have helpful commentary to add to the discussion. |
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See but at least you posted something , I consider drawing something then posting it pretty brave |
Originally Posted by Ghost
Oh, I'm not very artistic myself (practicing wise, at the very least) here's proof.
Though I do like to think I have a fair eye for the graphical and what is good and what I'd have done differently if I had skill... |
good , bad , indifferent <shrugs>
its more that im just not really intrested in what folks have to say if they can't be bothered to pick up a pencil and post their own stuff .
I'll try to explain my views by using sports as an example:
I've spent most of my life around sports. Started playing baseball at the age of 4, and continued through college (passing on a small offer with the Texas Rangers). Constructive critisim is the foundation of coaching in sports. You increase your athletic ability by practicing. Coaches give you constructive critisim to keep you from practicing bad habits, or the wrong things. Some coaches motivate with talk, while others scream and yell.
If we all went out to a little league baseball game, we would hear coaches and fans giving mostly, if not all, positive feedback. "Way to go Johnny!"..."Nice try Suzie"..."You'll get'em next time!" Why is this? Clearly when compared to professional athletes their skills are horrible...not even close.
If we all went to a professional game, we would hear "Cheers" as well as "Boos". You'd see coaches yelling at players, players yelling at players, and fans shouting profanities at their yesterday hero. A much more harsh environment for critisim, some may be constructive, but most can be hurtful. Even the article in the tomorrow's sports page will blast a few names and critique their efforts negatively.
Now, take what you guys and gals do here...ART. And instead of the age difference used above, substitue skill level or how long you've been drawing or creating art. Like an athlete, an artist has to start some where...and it's always at the beginning. Positive and supportive comments will increase confidence and the desire to continue creating ART! If we had told the young athlete that his arm motion was terrible, she couldn't hit the ball with that swing, or they just weren't good enough...I doubt their confidence level would even allow them to continue playing.
Professional artists, much like professional athelets, get critisim whether they want it or not...comes with the paychecks. But by now, they should be able to take it, and use it as motivation to become better, or toss it aside as just another opinion.
So basically, if I know of an artist that's just starting, and no matter what they post, good or bad, I'll try to find a positive to comment about. I'm not gonna point out the obvious flaws or bash their attempts just to prove that my opinion is right. I wouldn't want them discouraged and give up. As they mature as an artist, then constructive critism would greatly increase their confidence...keeping them from continuing bad habbits.
It all comes down to YOU...the coach. Nurture the young, and tough love the experienced. Not all coaches can DO what the athlete can, they might have been able to at one time, but now, physically it's impossible. Some great coaches have never even played the game that they teach. Doesn't make them less of a coach.
Bottom line: Encourage, don't discourage the beginning artist...no matter what. Feel free to critique the advanced artist, but bring a solution to the problem, don't just state the obvious. The professional artist had better have tough skin, becasue it comes with the paychecks.
xoxo
Pyro
Like I say elsewhere, if it comes down to a choice of Praise Fest and Bash fest, Praise is much preferable. Personally I wouldn't mind to see a bit of critique amongst the praise. Heck, I'd welcome it for my ongoing story attempt in the roleplaying section... But I do fear that the regular inclusion of it could lead the board here down the Bash Fest route and I would hate to see that happen. There's been times when I want to post replies that would have been along the lines of "Great work, love this, love that, but I do think your backgrounds could use a bit more attention" (or whatever) but refrained since I do not see that happen very often and didn't want to step out of bounds...
As for whose criticism has merit, I personally refuse to listen to the opinions of anyone who isn't in management. If you're just a lowly worker, or worse - a student, unemployed, or outside the normal workforce structure - then you comments, opinions, feelings, beliefs or existance mean nothing to me.
Ok, maybe I'm being a tad sarcastic there...
All I know is that if I am hiring an artist I want that artist to care about what I think about the piece they are producing for me. I want them to care enough about what the lowly "non artists" think that they try to produce pieces that those people like, appreciate and enjoy. If you truly don't care what non artists think then I hope you don't try to sell to non artists for I believe one should be trying to please their audience...
Of course I believe a distinction can be made between the criticisms and critiques of someone "in the field" and someone not... And that someone in the field's opinion should obviously carry more weight on technical matters and such. However, a whole hell of a lot of the appreciation of art is about things that are less technical and more about feelings, emotions, reactions and interpretations.
As for the plumber comparson, I must say that to me is kind of silly. Show random person on the street A and B the same piece of artwork and ask them if they like it. They can disagree and neither be wrong or an idiot. Show them both a pipe that is leaking, the one who claims it isn't is the idiot.
Art, and the enjoyment of it, is subjective. Preference of styles, of uses of colors, of reality versus interpretative... So much of the enjoyment varies from individual to individual. Comparing it to something that is either right or not, such as plumbing, kind of misses the point of art to begin with in my opinion....
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First: This. There is a fine line between the Art Teacher and the Art Critique. One may not be able to do what the other can, but both are equal in their ability to look into a piece and constructively break it down. Art is created under instruction, continued under desire, and displayed under humility. Art requires an artist to be capable of taking the good with the bad, like a seesaw; you have to balance the act. Some art is more free from the strain of commentary, but in a realm like here were art is attempting to mimic "reality" (ie: physical form, pose, position, perspective, etc), than we will be scrutinized, even if no one actually says anything.
Originally Posted by Eddy_Swan
I've learned that there are people who are going to give you criticism that you can ignore, but at the end of the day a regular person can tell you when your hands need work, when one eye looks too far off center, etc.; simple anatomy is often a very easy thing for a regular person to pick up on.
I've been from the dirt end of inability to where I am now and still humbly say that I'm not that good, and I never will be because art is an imperfect dream of perfection and has levels of acceptable. Do I think I'm far enough along to charge for pieces? Yes, but not enough to say "That'll be $300 for your con sketch, Mr. Broke" like a rare set of artists have charged in the past.
Artist need criticism, they're like Editors. Every piece I've done in the last few months goes through a filter before I even take it past pencils; that being the Mrs. whom glances at each piece and often will find something that to her eye appears incorrect that a technical eye would understand is correct, but may not visually feel that way. It may be physically possible, but if the pose still looks like someone's pulling a hernia, it may not really be what you want conveyed (unless, you know, that really is what you're trying to do). For constructive feedback I'm more likely to turn to my wife for guidance than someone else because she'll be honest. Believe me when I say I've heard the words "I'm sorry honey, but that sucks." It doesn't dishearten me to hear it, it allows me to understand that there's something wrong that I'm not seeing; and when I can't find where to fix it from, then I'll go and find someone who does know the technical side, and find advice from that perspective to fix it.
You can't know where you're going without knowing where you've been.
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Originally Posted by Eddy_Swan
...which lead's me on to pricing. To me you put your price on what your willing to work for. I organize my prices so they equate to an hourly rate and estimate how long it will take me to do something. For example: My bust's, and charge accordingly. You get into trouble if you charge for a finished piece. I found when I did everything for a fairly cheap price I'd spend weeks on a picture for an amount that was not worth it at all for me which led to all sorts of problems.
At the end of the day, though, its what your willing to pay for that matters. I charge what I'm willing to work for. You either pay it or find someone cheaper; same goes with Sorah; same goes with anyone.
While not so much thinking on an hourly rate but more in an interest of time subjectively, an artist should (and often do) charge based on what they deem the value of a piece is worth of their time and effort to produce. In many cases this is on an even scale of Personal Skill Value vs. Cost. As in what an artist values their abilities at, and that the more they see their abilities develop, the more they'll often charge. They may be able to produce a full figured sketch in ten minutes with a little ink splash and charge you $50 whereas the next guy might do something similar, but take an hour and charge $15.
Essentially the number one thing anyone buys from an artist is Confidence. How confident is the artist in their work and how confident am I in their work that I'm willing to pay for it.
No one pays for skill, that's a misnomer. Skill implies some innate hidden god-given talent that required no effort. Everyone starts off with box houses and stick figures, just some of us pursued it further than others. Giving the artist practice, they've put time into their abilities and honed them to a lethal-artistic weapon, and when they've got the confidence in it, you'll start paying for it.
Now, personally I believe there should be a ground floor before a price becomes a bit outrageous, but even corporate/commercial artists have their rates. Speaking of, where's Doug? He's the only one I could tip off the top of my head what a company like Wizards would fork out for a single painting. Or there's Sorah, whom is also "in the biz", but in a different industry, and has her own Confidence Value and charges accordingly.
Edit: For the reason of just being a fork in the side on the topic since it was brought up. A Plumber is not always good at his/her job, and a bum off the street may actually know what they're talking about. Where does one learn but not through experience? Someone may not be licensed in a hired position, but that doesn't discount that they have some knowledge of value. Now, I'm not saying you should call a plumber to fix your septic tank, but at the same time if I can save a buck by calling a friend to help replace the U-Joint under my sink, you better believe I will.
Everyone learns from somewhere, and these days the average joe/jane can also get in on it since most community colleges have classes on most industry trades (HVAC/Electric/Plumbing) that only cost a few hundred for a couple weeks and drop you into an apprenticeship somewhere for field training. While totally a different topic from Art Instruction to Art Critique, the point of view is the same. There's not much separating one from the other past a license or degree that may not always have any true value in expertise or knowledge.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Most people are far less accepting of criticisms or critique than they might think, and are probably less accepting than they profess. It doesn't matter what skill or 'professional' level they might be. Unless someone specifically asks for feedback, I don't feel comfortable giving it. I guess I am from the, "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" school of thought. 
I also think it can be a bit rude to cut down either a piece that someone has commissioned, perhaps with their only spare dime, or the work of an obviously junior artist - for them, the best feedback is probably, "keep drawing!" For the first, getting a commission doesn't make one blind, there are plenty of flaws in most of the art we see around here. I am just not sure what the point is in pointing them out for someone other than the artist? I am rarely impressed by someones ability to spot issues with a piece! 
On the other hand, there have also been quite a few times when I have learned things from others critiques. Perhaps I could see that something was wrong, but couldn't quite figure out why...that sort of thing. But why not leave that for artists who post and ask for it?
Finally, I find amusing the range of individuals who seem to consider themselves or their opinions somehow more important than others for whatever reason...people in general just need to take themselves less seriously. 
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I don't see the collector/artist relationship as a simple customer/business relationship. In my view, it's a collaboration, where the collector is an editor, working with the artist on a project. As such, I think it's important for a collector to be educated/aware of the technical aspects and composition of a piece. Most artists are too close to a particular piece and often times don't spot the weaker aspects of the drawing unless they take time to step away from the paper for awhile. Of course deadlines can make that difficult. A collector who's playing a more active role can spot and have them addressed, which in the end making a stronger looking piece. I think it's good for collectors to share critiques as well, as it's an exercise to sharpen observation and communication skills, which make a pretty significant difference in the turnaround time and quality of future commissions. Collectors are pretty attached to the original characters they collect art of (I know I am) and can miss some mistakes as well.
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Originally Posted by Katfood
For the first, getting a commission doesn't make one blind, there are plenty of flaws in most of the art we see around here. I am just not sure what the point is in pointing them out for someone other than the artist? I am rarely impressed by someones ability to spot issues with a piece!
On the other hand, there have also been quite a few times when I have learned things from others critiques. Perhaps I could see that something was wrong, but couldn't quite figure out why...that sort of thing. But why not leave that for artists who post and ask for it? |
Critique isn't easy. It's not for naught that schools and training institutes give lessons in it.
Giving critique is all about the delivery, you want to point something out for improvement and you want to do it in a way that the other will listen to.
Getting critique, that's more complex. You have to process the feedback and evaluate it's worth to you.
Let's use an other example than the plunber...
I work in customer ICT tech support, computers are about as close to art as you get... because there's a tone of ways to do things.
I get a call with problem A, I use solution A1 as I have been using for a while and it works for me and my customers.
A colleague of mine hears this and says, try solution A2 because of flaws inherent in A1 with a list of those flaws. I listen to him and decide that solution A2 isn't much use. Not because that colleague is a new and inexperienced Joe off the street, but because my training and experience tell me that he's not right (not that he's necessarily wrong, though)
An other colleague hears our discussion and suggests Solution A3 instead. I evaluate this, and decide that I don't know enough to try that, or that I'd like to test it first before using it with a customer.
A fourth colleague suggests solution A4, but after hearing that, I decide that even though it's a good solution, it's too far from my comfort zone for me to incorporate in my skill package.
Oh my, I forgot where I was going with this... so I'll leave it here and quote myself when I remember....
*goes off to search my brain*
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
I usually don't say anything unless it's really bothering me. I can't draw for crap, but I am a photographer, so composition can really make my eye twitch. However, the quality of what comes out here on the forums generally makes me sit back, smile, and applaud the artist(s) for a job well done.
Collector involvement in a commission is up to the collector and the artist and really should be decided at time of commission Me personally, I like seeing what artists do with the basics of a character. To me, its pointless to go around telling people how to draw Kai for instance because the reason I paid them was to share their vision of her given whats out there so far. I'm also pretty sure LJ and JP's current sales for instance do not reflect a pricing of spending a week with someone going back and forth over details and color palettes ;7
If I ever made a mistake when I was drawing, I'd totally accept critique. Luckily, I'm perfect.
Yes.
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you really can't argue about Foos perfection ....
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Originally Posted by The_Foo
If I ever made a mistake when I was drawing, I'd totally accept critique. Luckily, I'm perfect.
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If a collector wants to just toss some money at an artist and tell them to do whatever, that's certainly their prerogative. My point was that if collectors took more time to learn and understand art theory, be a little more involved in the process, and give artists more feedback, the result would be higher quality art of whatever subjects they end up choosing for their commissions. And I think that critique of commissioned work with the collector can be a good learning tool along those regards.
That's not going to happen around here though, as it seems most collectors don't share my views or methods, are content to toss their cash and screenies over to the artist and let it ride. And that's perfectly fine. There are plenty of resources out there for folks who want to delve into more detailed, technical discussions.
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It's a given. Like the sun rising in the morning.
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Originally Posted by Deebs
you really can't argue about Foos perfection ....
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My ideal customer is like that, the connotations of your wording aside. The people I really like to work with are the ones that are familiar with my work and are interested in seeing what I would do with the source material. Basically, they have enough interest and faith in my ability to permit me to explore the character and express what I see in it, as opposed to the orthodox way it's generally done. | If a collector wants to just toss some money at an artist and tell them to do whatever, that's certainly their prerogative. |
If the client has very concrete ideas about what they want done, that's fine. But the more proscibed things become, the more commercial and academic the endeavor becomes. Maybe the artist works harder because they know the client is picky. Or maybe the client is more satisfied because the artist stays closer to their expressed expectations. Whether or not the art is actually better is a subjective appraisal. Personally, I really doubt it.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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I think what Bayani was saying about collaboration is being PART of the creative process, vs. actually telling an artist, "Put his leg up by 2 more inches and the right arm above his head instead of over there..."|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
My ideal customer is like that, the connotations of your wording aside. The people I really like to work with are the ones that are familiar with my work and are interested in seeing what I would do with the source material. Basically, they have enough interest and faith in my ability to permit me to explore the character and express what I see in it, as opposed to the orthodox way it's generally done.
If the client has very concrete ideas about what they want done, that's fine. But the more proscibed things become, the more commercial and academic the endeavor becomes. Maybe the artist works harder because they know the client is picky. Or maybe the client is more satisfied because the artist stays closer to their expressed expectations. Whether or not the art is actually better is a subjective appraisal. Personally, I really doubt it. |
I know that when I have worked with Bayani, he usually has a "general" idea of what he wants done. I have other opinions and I have reasons backing them up. I share them, and sometimes he will agree with me, sometimes he won't (lately I have been able to BEND HIM TO MY WILL! MWAHAHA!). Anyway, but I involve him in the thinking/creative process.
When I sit down for ANY work, be it a comic page of pencilling, inking, coloring, or a commission piece of pencilling, inking, coloring, even though it is a JOB I maintain a sense of flow with it. Put it down when I need to, walk away when I need to, switch pages when I need to. I don't go through and draw "all the figures" or "one panel at a time" even, it just depends on how I am going to tackle the job.
With Bayani, I know he likes to be involved in that decision making of "how to flow with the job, what direction I'm gonna take it", and generally I think most clients like that. I will offer about 2-3 ideas of what I want to do, offering very small thumbnail sketches, they will pick one, I'll do a more detailed sketch, but it's still rough, they point out any changes, adjustments (added elements, detail stuff they want), and then I polish it up on an 11 x 17 board.
But that may be the comic industry rubbing off on me. That's how I function with editors. LOL.
Click for Deviant Art Site - Commission List: OPEN
I think critiques should really only be given at the artist's discretion. If the artist doesn't want critiques, well, then that's their loss.
I don't get caught up in what kind of person is more fit to give a "good critique." That doesn't really matter. When you ask for critiques, you better expect anyone, whether it be Joe off the street or someone who has been in the art business for it a while. They both probably have something interesting to say. My dad knows diddly-squat about art, but he can still pinpoint things that are still important. He sees it from a regular Joe's point of view. A consumer's point of view. In the end, it all really comes down to who the artist is trying to please.
I'll be quite honest. I'm an artist that never asks for critiques (but at the same time, I don't discourage it). I really don't like getting them. And personally, I'm actually marginally satisfied with my own work. I know there are flaws and I can easily pick them out in my pictures, but I don't really care. I enjoy doing what I love to do, and I improve my skills and polish my style at my own pace. I suppose I'm just one of those people that hates be taught by someone else. I like learning things on my own, even if it is the hard way.
Most of the time, I already know of the flaws that people critique to me. I've only gotten 3-4 good critiques during my whole time of drawing, and they were of things that I was never aware of at the time (and boy, did they help me!).
I'd also really like to direct anyone here to this little journal entry about critiques, written by a friend of mine. She does the greatest critiques I have ever seen. She makes a very good point about how all critiques should be in 'good faith.' click.
Oh, and praise parades are just dumb. People who feed off them and take them seriously are wasting their poor time. In my time of traveling the Internets, I have gotten a few little praise groups that suck up to me and treat me like I'm some goddess. It's ridiculous. It's silly. I just roll my eyes.
Can I just say that I have never experienced the "praise parades"? Where can I find these? Clearly, I need them in times of needed-ego-stroking. Just sayin' :P
Click for Deviant Art Site - Commission List: OPEN
Speaking of Critques.
I've been working on this coloring this sketch I did a while back andwould love some actual critques or pointers on how to improve it/my skills.
The WIPs can be found here or my dA page. (click the dA stamp in my sig)
note it's not done yet and probably has maybe 8hrs of work into it
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DEFINITELY ask what kind of input the artist wants from you, sale or no sale. Because personally, the more involved the client is, the happier I am. I'm sure not every single artist feels the same way, but taking a moment to find out can make the process tons better for each person!
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Originally Posted by Kai
Collector involvement in a commission is up to the collector and the artist and really should be decided at time of commission
Me personally, I like seeing what artists do with the basics of a character. To me, its pointless to go around telling people how to draw Kai for instance because the reason I paid them was to share their vision of her given whats out there so far. I'm also pretty sure LJ and JP's current sales for instance do not reflect a pricing of spending a week with someone going back and forth over details and color palettes ;7 |
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See, I'm the exact opposite way, because I start feeding off my clients' creativity as stuff moves along if they're nice and involved. Ideas I might have not thought of start getting tossed around, and that can open up whole new doors of things that do come to my mind.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
My ideal customer is like that, the connotations of your wording aside. The people I really like to work with are the ones that are familiar with my work and are interested in seeing what I would do with the source material. Basically, they have enough interest and faith in my ability to permit me to explore the character and express what I see in it, as opposed to the orthodox way it's generally done.
If the client has very concrete ideas about what they want done, that's fine. But the more proscibed things become, the more commercial and academic the endeavor becomes. Maybe the artist works harder because they know the client is picky. Or maybe the client is more satisfied because the artist stays closer to their expressed expectations. Whether or not the art is actually better is a subjective appraisal. Personally, I really doubt it. |
I don't know if you're thinking of client involvement as "this goes exactly here and this is 2cm from that, yadda yadda", but I'm thinking of it as putting ideas back and forth and coming to the completed project with an exploration from both sides. That sort of collaboration definitely doesn't produce something inferior in any way.
I see why people want to post there opinions and such but my rule of thumb is if i don't like it i don't post but some times i just don't post because i get to lazy 
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Wait your not a goddess? *takes down my altar* | Oh, and praise parades are just dumb. People who feed off them and take them seriously are wasting their poor time. In my time of traveling the Internets, I have gotten a few little praise groups that suck up to me and treat me like I'm some goddess. It's ridiculous. It's silly. I just roll my eyes. |
More than anything I am happy that people are actually talking about what's on their minds. It's very obvious that there's more than one common viewpoint at play here. Methinks that the split in opinions on the nature of this forum is wider than commonly believed.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN