Whirling Hands does piddly damage on its own but Fury will help of course. The problem for Inv is that those foes that get stunned by Whirling Hands will stumble away and stop feeding Invincibility. Meaning those tougher opponents will be unaffected and suddenly may be able to hit you more often unless you build for +def or have a way to immob foes.
It sucks because it's not Foot Stomp. Otherwise, it's a pretty standard PBAoE attack. Damage is pretty weak because it's on a 14-sec timer, while Foot Stomp is on a 20s timer-having better damage, DPS, and DPA and a bigger radius.
Anyway, it's your only AoE bar Patron attacks, and can hold the Armageddon set.
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I second that. Other PBAoEs like Whirling Mace and Dragon's Tail do about the same damage. Foot Stomp and Tremor are the big hitters because they've got such larger radius. (And really, they should do less damage because of that, but don't)
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Originally Posted by Ethric
It sucks because it's not Foot Stomp. Otherwise, it's a pretty standard PBAoE attack. Damage is pretty weak because it's on a 14-sec timer, while Foot Stomp is on a 20s timer-having better damage, DPS, and DPA and a bigger radius.
Anyway, it's your only AoE bar Patron attacks, and can hold the Armageddon set. |
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They should be... I went through the Brute Guides & FAQs sticky, and updated the links to work with the new forums. Then, I PM'd TheOcho to update the original post, which he did.|
Originally Posted by AncientSpirit_NA
I wish I could check the online guides here but the links aren't working yet (though I hope they will be soon).
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Since then, one new guide has been posted, for Dark/Dark/Soul, and I added it in my original update post.
If you've found a link that isn't working, please let me know so I can attempt to fix it.
Also: </3 Inv, <3 Whirling Hands.
I took it as soon as it came up on my EM/WP Brute. A friend of mine would use it to build his Domination bar on his Energy Melee Dominator.
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Biggest Troll on the forums? I'll give you a hint:
I have an EM brute, and I found Whirling Hands to just be a terrible attack even with full fury and some slotting at lvl 50. I think it is entirely skippable and really just a weak link in the set. I would choose to team with some AoEcentric friends and call it a day, personally.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Tremor is far from a big hitter and does pretty pathetic damage, especially when you consider it is a T9 power. Footstomp does a ton more damage than Tremor by far. All Tremor has is a fast recharge, and is more of a CC power than a damage power, which is funny because it has the same mag KB as Footsomp.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I second that. Other PBAoEs like Whirling Mace and Dragon's Tail do about the same damage. Foot Stomp and Tremor are the big hitters because they've got such larger radius. (And really, they should do less damage because of that, but don't)
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Tremor does the same damage as Whirling Hands. Which, again, is the same damage as other similar AoEs, although Whirling Mace does a little bit more. What Tremor has going for it, though, is that it's about twice the radius. |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Tremor is far from a big hitter and does pretty pathetic damage, especially when you consider it is a T9 power. Footstomp does a ton more damage than Tremor by far. All Tremor has is a fast recharge, and is more of a CC power than a damage power, which is funny because it has the same mag KB as Footsomp.
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There appear to be two damage scale/recharge ratios when it comes to melee PBAoEs. There is the 1 DS, 14 second version that most of them are fairly close to, and then the 1.42 DS, 20 second version of Foot Stomp, Fire Sword Circle, and Frozen Aura. In each of their categories, Foot Stomp and Tremor are the only ones with 15 ft radius.
When I compared them, really what I was saying is that it isn't the damage, it's that radius. Fire Sword Circle and Frozen Aura are both as damaging as Foot Stomp (Fire is greater, actually, because of the DoT) but nobody ever mentions them. Partly because of the smaller radius, mainly because of Rage.
Whirling hands is a decent attack. Whirling hands is your only primary choice for aoe on em/. Whirling hands is not in the top tier of brute AOE's, but it would be a real waste to pass up on the opportunity to put out some AOE pain. It is much more end efficient than smashing everything single target if you have a decent crowd. Again, the damage is merely average, not bad. I haven't found stun wandering to be a real issue, but I use FA on my EM character.
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Tremor is a level 32 power though, Whirling Hands you get at level 8. Energy gets Energy Transfer at 32 which does unholy damage... |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Tremor does the same damage as Whirling Hands. Which, again, is the same damage as other similar AoEs, although Whirling Mace does a little bit more. What Tremor has going for it, though, is that it's about twice the radius.
There appear to be two damage scale/recharge ratios when it comes to melee PBAoEs. There is the 1 DS, 14 second version that most of them are fairly close to, and then the 1.42 DS, 20 second version of Foot Stomp, Fire Sword Circle, and Frozen Aura. In each of their categories, Foot Stomp and Tremor are the only ones with 15 ft radius. When I compared them, really what I was saying is that it isn't the damage, it's that radius. Fire Sword Circle and Frozen Aura are both as damaging as Foot Stomp (Fire is greater, actually, because of the DoT) but nobody ever mentions them. Partly because of the smaller radius, mainly because of Rage. |
Most Brutes guides I've read actually or things I've read here don't really like Tremor at all (personally I do think it's pretty damn good).
Whirling Hands could certainly do with a boost though, average damage, slow animation time and crap AOE. It could do with increasing the damage to Footstomp levels.
I would have to just say that picking EM/ you need to just accept the fact that you are a single target king and not an AoE monster like other sets. If AoE SMASH is what you really want then I would roll a different Brute primary.
I thouroghly enjoy Mace...it's feel real nice and SMASHy and it has a nice mix of Cone and Single target damage. 
Footstomp isn't all that damaging either. Its only Rage that gets it up. FSC is way more damaging.
Add to that Footstomp has the same 10 target cap as many of the other AoEs so, if your farming, a lot of the time that extra range is wasted.
Crowd Control is a better AoE for mine.
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Definitely have to piggy back on this... Crowd Control, even though it's a cone, is devastating and unlike a lot of melee cones it's very easy to set up your position for max opponents to be hit with it.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Footstomp isn't all that damaging either. Its only Rage that gets it up. FSC is way more damaging.
Add to that Footstomp has the same 10 target cap as many of the other AoEs so, if your farming, a lot of the time that extra range is wasted. Crowd Control is a better AoE for mine. |
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Originally Posted by Carnifax
Tremor is a level 32 power though, Whirling Hands you get at level 8. Energy gets Energy Transfer at 32 which does unholy damage...
Most Brutes guides I've read actually or things I've read here don't really like Tremor at all (personally I do think it's pretty damn good). Whirling Hands could certainly do with a boost though, average damage, slow animation time and crap AOE. It could do with increasing the damage to Footstomp levels. |
I don't care for tremor, is nice for crowd control, but meh for damage. What is insulting is that it is the tier 9 power for Stone Melee.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Footstomp isn't all that damaging either. Its only Rage that gets it up. FSC is way more damaging.
Add to that Footstomp has the same 10 target cap as many of the other AoEs so, if your farming, a lot of the time that extra range is wasted. Crowd Control is a better AoE for mine. |
As for saying "it's only rage that gets it up" is irrelevant. I have yet to see a ss/* brute that didn't have rage up all the time and double stacked at times. Double stacked, Footstomp is just crazy.
Even without rage, footstomp does more damage than Tremor. The only advantage Tremor has over Footstomp is that it has a faster recharge time. Tremor's animation time is almost a full second longer.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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You haven't EVER seen a SS Brute who is not perma double stacking Rage? I find that very hard to believe. Most builds would be happy with a single stack of Rage up permanently. To put it in perspective its easier to get perma Hasten then it is to get perma 2x Rage.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
I don't care for tremor, is nice for crowd control, but meh for damage. What is insulting is that it is the tier 9 power for Stone Melee.
Crowd Control was sexy on my tanker, haven't tried it on a brute yet. As for saying "it's only rage that gets it up" is irrelevant. I have yet to see a ss/* brute that didn't have rage up all the time and double stacked at times. Double stacked, Footstomp is just crazy. Even without rage, footstomp does more damage than Tremor. The only advantage Tremor has over Footstomp is that it has a faster recharge time. Tremor's animation time is almost a full second longer. |
With a single Rage stack SS is pretty much even with most of the other sets. Since that where SS Brutes spend the vast majority of their time it makes sense to compare them from that position.
Go back and read what _Deth_ actually wrote.
"up all the time and double stacked at times" is not "perma double stacking Rage". It is, in fact, "a single stack of Rage up permanently", plus some overlap during which it is "double stacked at times". And during that overlap, Foot Stomp is indeed quite crazy - but you also have to deal with more frequent Rage crashes, which is why I generally don't try to double-stack Rage on my SS/Elec.
@SPTrashcan
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Its the same reason I don't double stack it either. Rage is the only ability that, in a way, self defeating once you get to a certain point.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Go back and read what _Deth_ actually wrote.
"up all the time and double stacked at times" is not "perma double stacking Rage". It is, in fact, "a single stack of Rage up permanently", plus some overlap during which it is "double stacked at times". And during that overlap, Foot Stomp is indeed quite crazy - but you also have to deal with more frequent Rage crashes, which is why I generally don't try to double-stack Rage on my SS/Elec. |
Tremor sucks.
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I agree, there's really no benefit to stacking Rage. Crashing more often hurts your DPS more than people think. The only time I stack Rage is if I really need the extra damage at a given time.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Go back and read what _Deth_ actually wrote.
"up all the time and double stacked at times" is not "perma double stacking Rage". It is, in fact, "a single stack of Rage up permanently", plus some overlap during which it is "double stacked at times". And during that overlap, Foot Stomp is indeed quite crazy - but you also have to deal with more frequent Rage crashes, which is why I generally don't try to double-stack Rage on my SS/Elec. |
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
yep, and considering I have managed to pull triple stacked rage a few times with a couple kins around, yeah, for like 5 seconds I hit like the hand of god. then I am suckin wind for a long time.
Personally, not a big fan of rage. if they upped the recharge time to where it was basically impossible to stack, but was still almost perma, I would love my SS toons. I am not one to micromanage my clickies, so I tend to hit Rage every time it is up. Then get really pissed when I waste a bunch of inspirations cus I wasn't paying attention. Understand completely it is my own fault, but that doesn't mean I can't be sore about it.
Personally, I would love to see whirling hands and tremor adjusted. At least make Tremor worthwhile as a tier 9 power. Whirling hands should have the damage adjusted a bit and moved farther down the line. Something like that. I mean seriously, you give a set some of the hardest hitting ST melee attacks out there, then when it comes to AoE they hit like a 4 year old.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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That's comparing both powers to each other, however I think it would be better to compare the sets as a whole vs. each other.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Even without rage, footstomp does more damage than Tremor. The only advantage Tremor has over Footstomp is that it has a faster recharge time. Tremor's animation time is almost a full second longer.
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I don't actually have any conclusions to draw, I just think that would be a fairer comparison.
I thought tremor was inferior to footstomp because tremor is a pseudopet attack. May be wrong though.
As for whirling hands, it is worth taking but its nothing thats gonna change your survivability at all. Energy melee is choppy as hell with or without WH.
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Nope. Not a pseudo-pet. Lightning Rod, Chain Induction, Shield Charge, Burn and Power Surge use pseudo-pets.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
I thought tremor was inferior to footstomp because tremor is a pseudopet attack. May be wrong though.
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comparing one tier 9 AoE with similar attributes to another, about as fair as it gets.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's comparing both powers to each other, however I think it would be better to compare the sets as a whole vs. each other.
I don't actually have any conclusions to draw, I just think that would be a fairer comparison. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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I have to disagree with you there, I think it's more important to see what a set overall has vs. another set.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
comparing one tier 9 AoE with similar attributes to another, about as fair as it gets.
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Now that's not to say that I don't think a T9 shouldn't be suitably impressive, but I don't think you can just compare powers from different sets in a vacuum. The sets themselves need to be balanced vs. each other in what they provide.
Also, as I said previously, I'm not drawing any conclusions on SM vs. SS.
In your opinion, how do the two sets stack up against each other?
I have an Energy Melee/Invul Brute who is almost 39 now and it seems he can survive most anything. But I haven't taken Whirling Hands yet and when I go into a big mob - even though I can survive it -- it takes forever killing them all with single target attacks.
I figured I should just have taken Whirling Hands earlier. But then, the only two posts I see in these threads with builds for EM/Inv. Brutes have chosen to take Whirling Hands at level 47.
I wish I could check the online guides here but the links aren't working yet (though I hope they will be soon).
So what's the deal with Whirling Hands anyway? Is it worth picking up earlier? Or do I just team with better damage dealers and let them do the kills?