Fix PvP

Yep. Another post moaning about the current state of PvP.

Now I was never a fan of the old system. Defense characters were completely useless (to some extent they still are, but I digress), Stalkers could 2-hit kill just about anyone, and blasters would constantly teleport you onto mine fields. But it had some advantages too. IO set bonuses meant something, you could actually FLEE from impending doom rather than sit around waiting for 5 people to tear you limb from limb and, most importantly, the PvP zones were actually populated with players most of the time.

There are too many issues with PvP for me to name them all, so I'll start with my biggest greivances and work my way down.

Travel suppression:
Lord knows this one is a killer. I can see it's intent, but in reality all it does is penalise the player who gets ganked by a small army of the opposing side. It doesn't help melees since everyone leaps around like Gummi Bears on steroids, and ranged attackers could hit you even without the suppression. It's a pain in the backside for teleporters especially, rendering their only viable means of esacape completely useless.

Tankers:
They're now the world leader in PvP toons. The reasons should be plain for anyone to see, but I'll note them here for completions sake. Firstly Super Strength has Rage. A riduculously overpowered move imo, which takes a strong powerset and turns the tanker into a scrapper worthy fighter. A tanker should never deal more damage than a scrapper can because that's why scrappers sacrifice some lastability. At the very least give us the damage to match! They also have very high defense and resistance. They're built to take punishment, a job they do very well in both PvE and PvP. Finally, ranged epics? Fireball is a powerful move alone, combined with rage it's one of their deadliest attacks. The initial damage is bad enough, but the DoT is extreme.

Stalkers:
I speak as a stalker here, so I don't say this without some degree of regret. But we're seriously strong in our epics. And you know what im talking about. It's Spirit Sharks. Fired from hide it can practically wipe out most heroes without some kind of HP bonus like Dull Pain. One move should not be capable of such extremes, except for our assassin's strike for the simple reason that it's harder to fire. Funny how you make Assassin's Strike deal considerably less damage then make our previously weak epic exceed it greatly.

Defense sets:
A trend I've noticed with a lot of my toons is when I enter RV (or similar) my defense markup drops considerably. While the "Combat attributes" window suggests I should be at 40%+ defense, my index remains at around 30% (as an example). You've got some kind of defense normalisation in place here, which is understandable to a point, but some toons RELY on that defense to stay alive. Abilities like Elude and Kuji-In-Retsu are considerably weaker since the defenses don't stack the way the maths suggests. And don't delude yourself in thinking that the opponents are any less accurate.

PvE toons:
Something seriously wrong with Mezzes on PvE's. Despite my resistance they land holds/sleeps/stuns like I had nothing at all. No protection OR resistance. Being stunned for a whole 16 seconds while an army sets upon you is a tad unfair to say the least, especially when you've already tkaen every possible precaution.

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Travel suppression:
Lord knows this one is a killer. I can see it's intent, but in reality all it does is penalise the player who gets ganked by a small army of the opposing side. It doesn't help melees since everyone leaps around like Gummi Bears on steroids, and ranged attackers could hit you even without the suppression. It's a pain in the backside for teleporters especially, rendering their only viable means of esacape completely useless.

[/ QUOTE ]Were it up to me, travel powers would be suppressed even longer in PvP zones, like 10 seconds since the last contact between you and a foe.
And attacks wouldn't root.
And melee ATs would have powers that either pull targets to them or transport them to their targets.
And the ranged ATs would have powers to escape melee a short distance.

Oh, wait, that's WoW.

Honestly though, at least it's better than it used to be, where anyone could just pop Super Speed and escape to the base whenever they feel like it. At least SOMEONE is dying in zones, now. Giving both the attacker and defender a fair chance and eliminating a rock-paper-scissors element is another argument entirely.
Before i13, the mobility in PvP was just stupid. Heck, it's not much better even now, I'd [censored] it further into the ground if I could.

And yeah, PvE mobs in PvP zones are borked.

I'm sure there will be tweaks in I14 and beyond

TP got specced out on my Bane.
Hit and vanish became Hit and...oh dear.
Tanker gods? Not Invul/EM. Trust me. Used to suck for me, still sucked for me =/

Heres hoping the extensions from this Groundwork get better -fingercross-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

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I'm sure there will be tweaks in I14 and beyond

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In a position to know are we?

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Travel suppression:
Lord knows this one is a killer. I can see it's intent, but in reality all it does is penalise the player who gets ganked by a small army of the opposing side. It doesn't help melees since everyone leaps around like Gummi Bears on steroids, and ranged attackers could hit you even without the suppression. It's a pain in the backside for teleporters especially, rendering their only viable means of esacape completely useless.

[/ QUOTE ]Were it up to me, travel powers would be suppressed even longer in PvP zones, like 10 seconds since the last contact between you and a foe.
And attacks wouldn't root.
And melee ATs would have powers that either pull targets to them or transport them to their targets.
And the ranged ATs would have powers to escape melee a short distance.

Oh, wait, that's WoW.

Honestly though, at least it's better than it used to be, where anyone could just pop Super Speed and escape to the base whenever they feel like it. At least SOMEONE is dying in zones, now. Giving both the attacker and defender a fair chance and eliminating a rock-paper-scissors element is another argument entirely.
Before i13, the mobility in PvP was just stupid. Heck, it's not much better even now, I'd [censored] it further into the ground if I could.

And yeah, PvE mobs in PvP zones are borked.

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OMG, >.< It's stupid suggestions like this, that has screwed it up for everyone else already!

I cannot even start to flame all that is wrong with Col_Blitzkrieger's post.

Man, you need a good schlap!

[EDIT] Alright, alright, I apologize, I really shouldn't have gone there.

*Makes a personal note to not post after waking up cranky.*

I'm sorry, honestly. It's not that I want to be a jerk, it's that I end up being one and saying things without thinking them over at times.



I'll take that schlap now.

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Actually, nevermind, best not change this thread into another flamefest

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If this was your honest intention, you would not have followed it up with this...
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those who're still whining that they kick less butt in the new PvP system, and those who actually want PvP to be less broken and more accessible/attractive for everyone

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I'd love to know which out of the two you think you are, and if you are suggesting that a am something other that the latter then perhaps you are not the man I thought you were.

Mezzes in PVP zones? unresistable mez in PVP zones!..whats that about? why do we have toggles vs holds and stuns etc...arcobatics may aswel not be a power O.o Break free's may aswel not have been invented... and tbh... since i13 (the best players imo) have all left, leaving the game un challenging and dull if this doesnt get fixed there not going to be a load of people playing this. me included. Sort it out!

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[EDIT] Alright, alright, I apologize, I really shouldn't have gone there.

*Makes a personal note to not post after waking up cranky.*

I'm sorry, honestly. It's not that I want to be a jerk, it's that I end up being one and saying things without thinking them over at times.



I'll take that schlap now.

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All is forgiven 8P

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Mezzes in PVP zones? unresistable mez in PVP zones!..whats that about? why do we have toggles vs holds and stuns etc...arcobatics may aswel not be a power O.o Break free's may aswel not have been invented... and tbh... since i13 (the best players imo) have all left, leaving the game un challenging and dull if this doesnt get fixed there not going to be a load of people playing this. me included. Sort it out!

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Totally agree here, the powers that be are not infallible and they should have the ballz to say they messed up and change PvP back to i12.

Only reason I left my PFF last night in RV was cause there was a blinking shark in there with me !!

*FIX PVP PLZ*

I think asking the Devs to roll back the changes in PvP is silly there just not going to do it they stated at the time that it was going to be a on going process so i can see them just hiting the undo key and to be fair i like some of the changes or at least the idea behind them even if the implementation leaves a fair bit to be desired.

Instead we should encourage the Devs to forge on with there changes and politely point out things that don't work.

ok ok, somethings are good... but when everyone complains bout PvP, I'm sure thew probably mean..

Heal Suppression
Travel Suppression
and DR on res etc.

Why add things to the game that just frustrate people.

If they ever do get round to this 'Upgraded' version, it had better be spectacular. Either that or roll back to pre-I13, which although it had flaws was more fun (hell, even I admit it now) and then start work from there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I like how people say pre i13 pvp'ers are just annoyed because they cant kick butt anymore or couldnt ADAPT.

Just total lulz.

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Instead we should encourage the Devs to forge on with there changes

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No.Why encourage something that downright fails and is wrong.

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politely point out things that don't work.

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I13 doesnt work.

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ok ok, somethings are good

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Yeah?Like what.The empty pvp zones where farmers can badgehunters can operate without any problems now?

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I'm sure there will be tweaks in I14 and beyond

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I am sure you dont know what you talking about as usual and singing the usual spam [censored].

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I like how people say pre i13 pvp'ers are just annoyed because they cant kick butt anymore or couldnt ADAPT

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PvPers are not annoyed they just plainly left in their majority.A PvPer will always kick butt one way or the other if dedicated over casual gamers thats a universal truth.But there is no point kicking butt when the mechanics provided to do so are [censored].

I am sure NCNC is super happy how i13 turned out with them.From a 1k concurrent subs rise from March to June 2008 they launch i13 and they are hit by an amazing 4000 concurrent users loss from June to December. (edited for accuracy)

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they launch i13 and they are hit by an amazing 4000 concurrent users loss from June to September.

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Er, issue 13 launched in December.

those 4000 lost subscribers where playing issue 12 PvP, if they where PvPing at all.

just bring the old pvp back with ouroboro... end keep the new one

everyone happy

kind regards
hellking

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I like how people say pre i13 pvp'ers are just annoyed because they cant kick butt anymore or couldnt ADAPT.

Just total lulz.

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Just cause we only see you on your Ice tank now??
Way to Adapt Charnell GTZ

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Instead we should encourage the Devs to forge on with there changes and politely point out things that don't work.

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Forge on wasting resources and turn this epic fail into an even more refined and diverse epic fail, that no one is going to be interested in, good plan that.

I can see it now, not only will the zones be empty, but you will be able to play capture the [censored] flag in an empty zone too.

You do realise there's a closed beta on right now so people could no that there are changes to PvP in i14.

That is unless your in the beta and no for sure that there's not?

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Instead we should encourage the Devs to forge on with there changes and politely point out things that don't work.

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Forge on wasting resources and turn this epic fail into an even more refined and diverse epic fail, that no one is going to be interested in, good plan that.

I can see it now, not only will the zones be empty, but you will be able to play capture the [censored] flag in an empty zone too.

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Yes forge on when they nerfed regen and then nerfed it some more people moaned and screamed and called the Dev's all sorts and predicted the end of regen scrappers. Oh look there still here and still dam good hell most people now accept that they were far to good pre Nerf

Or hows about ED it was gonna kill the game no one was going to play it after it hit they didn't want to be weak look there still playing

and at the time they said that they needed to do it to make way for a new system people didn't believe them said that nothing would come but oh look the invention system arrived.

So yes forge ahead its a work in progress.

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You do realise there's a closed beta on right now so people could no that there are changes to PvP in i14.

That is unless your in the beta and no for sure that there's not?

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Well what they want to do is try talking about these changes instead of the usual big, great and soon [censored], that no one is interested in hearing any more.

And then try listening when they get told dont bother because no one is interested, or that it plays terribly.

its called a closed beta that means not every one can see whats going on for all we know the devs are having a question and answer session going on the closed beta board s right now and we just cant see it.

Or maybe there noting down all the bugs and suggestion and busy implementing them.

It makes sense to play things close to there chest stops the competition nicking the idea

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Instead we should encourage the Devs to forge on with there changes and politely point out things that don't work.

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Forge on wasting resources and turn this epic fail into an even more refined and diverse epic fail, that no one is going to be interested in, good plan that.

I can see it now, not only will the zones be empty, but you will be able to play capture the [censored] flag in an empty zone too.

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Yes forge on when they nerfed regen and then nerfed it some more people moaned and screamed and called the Dev's all sorts and predicted the end of regen scrappers. Oh look there still here and still dam good hell most people now accept that they were far to good pre Nerf

Or hows about ED it was gonna kill the game no one was going to play it after it hit they didn't want to be weak look there still playing

and at the time they said that they needed to do it to make way for a new system people didn't believe them said that nothing would come but oh look the invention system arrived.

So yes forge ahead its a work in progress.

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All of your above examples effected a lot of people and over all helped the game. So were worth spending the time on.

The difference here is pvp only ever effected a tiny minority, the people that said they were leaving HAVE left and have not been replaced by new ones. So it aint worth spending the resources on.

You know why? Because people dont want to pvp in this game in any great numbers and nothing they do will change that.

So why at a time when this game cant afford to [censored] existing players off do they do these things? Or even contemplate wasting more resources on flogging a dead horse.

They could have fixed pvp to a huge extent very easily without this epic fail, villain healers alone nearly did it.

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You do realise there's a closed beta on right now so people could no that there are changes to PvP in i14.

That is unless your in the beta and no for sure that there's not?

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Yes i do realise and the major fundamental change in closed beta at the moment as far as PvP goes is IO's used for PvP.Big deal.What about everything else that is [censored].Fix the archetypes before proceeding testing new mechanics.Fix the current mechanics in place before doing such changes that destroy feedback.

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Oh look there still here and still dam good hell most people now accept that they were far to good pre Nerf

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Regen scrappers good right now?Nothing comes close to Defence sets at the moment.Melee is facing the same issue that lead to the decision of destroying mobility which was kiting.Blasters switched to fly and good game. Toggle dropping change has made blaster PFF equal to phase if not better and the party keeps going.Defenders,controllers,dominators,corruptors are just dog food now for tanks,fortunatas which prevail all around.

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Or hows about ED it was gonna kill the game no one was going to play it after it hit they didn't want to be weak look there still playing

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Leave ED out of it.Although PvPers got double scammed.ED was brought in place in order to remove excessive power and to be given back in the form of IO's. PvPers got scammed by losing IO's as well through DR's and being punished for using IO's.

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and at the time they said that they needed to do it to make way for a new system people didn't believe them said that nothing would come but oh look the invention system arrived

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a bunch of issues later and 40,000 subs less.

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for all we know the devs are having a question and answer session going on the closed beta board s right now and we just cant see it.

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Or maybe Castle and Positron get sandblasted again under current system and decide to leave in PvP only brawl this time cause its not fun for them.

Bottom line is PvP solutions were offered from all the community and they were ignored despite being easy and sensible fixes without huge resource waste because the new vision of NCNC is too create awsome PvP in a 5 year old game suddenly out of the blue in the year that will see the biggest influx of MMO's.

On another note just logged after more testing in RV.PFF is the biggest joke ever.How is it possible to have phaseshift,hibernate nerfed and not have this ridicilous power.But of course when they calculated the brilliant defense system in pvp the didnt think of this.Destroyed 90% of what was good for the sake of prolonging fights which supposingly makes it more fun for the nubs that like to make fight clubs under the globe.