[ QUOTE ]
As I see it. Heroes below level 20 are trainee heroes at best. By the time they hit level 20 they have shown that they have the right stuff. They have shown that they are worthy to wear a cape he very icon of a superhero.
I like this milestone a lot. It makes sense to have it. I agree that it absolutely not make sense to have heroes wearing their Valkyrie cape before level 20 though.
And yes this might be stifling to some people creativity but so do the other limits both as milestone or engine wise as I described above.
[/ QUOTE ]
As you see it, perhaps, but not as the game its self describes it. We've had this argument before, you can't justify this on thematic grounds. It doesn't hold up on either side. That is why no conceptual argument can be valid in terms of decisions that aren't purely based on gamelore.
What do you like about the milestone? Why does it make sense to have it? I can't see why myself when heros can have access to other capes at level 1. Where is the milestone now and if that milestone has eroded then what is its function?
The 'other limits' you described above (as I countered above) do not have the same link to the superhero sub-genre as the cape. As for then engine, there is no reason in the game engine for not doing this.
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Sorry Marvelous, I wasn't saying your comment was wrong, just interesting. I'm in full agreement with you on capes being linked to heroes.
[/ QUOTE ]
No need to apologise. You raise some very valid and interesting points 
[ QUOTE ]
As you see it, perhaps, but not as the game its self describes it. We've had this argument before, you can't justify this on thematic grounds. It doesn't hold up on either side. That is why no conceptual argument can be valid in terms of decisions that aren't purely based on gamelore.
[/ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".
As someone said earlier, I think it's really only become a problem since the seeming double standards of introducing capes as part of bought booster packs and allowing them to be worn before the cape mission has been completed. No one complained about "stifling creativity" before then.
Incidentally, and slightly OT - are new major costume options only now going to be available as booster packs or vet rewards? Last free one we got afaicr was the Enforcer set.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, and slightly OT - are new major costume options only now going to be available as booster packs or vet rewards? Last free one we got afaicr was the Enforcer set.
[/ QUOTE ]
I13 had a large number of new costume items. Maybe not 'sets' but there were new options in there, so I would say no.
See, that's where I was originally coming from - I'm not 'anti-capes at level 1', but I think it should be one or the other - either all capes accessible at level 1, or none.
[B][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]@Winter Flare[/COLOR] - [url="http://sites.google.com/site/thenewguardians"] The New Guardians[/url] - [url="http://www.badge-hunter.com/index.php?/page/view_player.php?id=339"] 1211 Badges [/url][/B]
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I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14?
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Well, there always has been a game mechanic behind that though. It was to force first time players to run around, thus learning there agro distances. That's what we've been told when this has come up before at least.
The same is true for having only one attack power. It is a clear game mechanic and that is the same in many games.
[ QUOTE ]
As someone said earlier, I think it's really only become a problem since the seeming double standards of introducing capes as part of bought booster packs and allowing them to be worn before the cape mission has been completed. No one complained about "stifling creativity" before then.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's always been a problem. There were several suggestion threads "back in the day" that I remember. I think this new situation though has just compounded the issue.
[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, and slightly OT...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well it does currently look like all of the expansions are having costume bits added. The Magic one seams to (as one of the bits has been leaked). I'm not sure there would be that much of a take-up of them if they didn't actually. What would the Tech pack have included apart from costume options? three character emotes and a special power would be very little for £5.99.
Was anything added in the last few patches?
[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, so Zortel, my energy blaster, puts exploding ammunition rounds in her suit that doesn't fire bullets for more damage? Azure Arrow learns how do to fancy martial arts dragon strikes to make his arrows do more damage? My Psychic psychology student uses magical items and genetic alteration to become more adept at his powers?
I may be a roleplayer, but I don't let the game mechanic driven system dictate my characters.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, so Zortel, my energy blaster, puts exploding ammunition rounds in her suit that doesn't fire bullets for more damage? Azure Arrow learns how do to fancy martial arts dragon strikes to make his arrows do more damage? My Psychic psychology student uses magical items and genetic alteration to become more adept at his powers?
I may be a roleplayer, but I don't let the game mechanic driven system dictate my characters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Thats a game mechanic, a think *everyone* is stuck with, and so thats not really an issue.
What is the issue is the double standards to do with Capes and auras. And while enhancements dont MATTER (per se) as you cant see them, you sure can see auras and capes. Or the lack thereof...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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[ QUOTE ]
Well, there always has been a game mechanic behind that though. It was to force first time players to run around, thus learning there agro distances. That's what we've been told when this has come up before at least.
The same is true for having only one attack power. It is a clear game mechanic and that is the same in many games.
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I'm quite aware of the reason from the pov of game mechanics; that wasn't what I asked. I realise your dismissal of thematic questions, and I daresay this would fall under that category.
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I think it's always been a problem. There were several suggestion threads "back in the day" that I remember. I think this new situation though has just compounded the issue.
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First time I've ever seen it mentioned.. but hey ho
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Well it does currently look like all of the expansions are having costume bits added. The Magic one seams to (as one of the bits has been leaked). I'm not sure there would be that much of a take-up of them if they didn't actually. What would the Tech pack have included apart from costume options? three character emotes and a special power would be very little for £5.99.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, not what I asked. I didn't ask if booster packs would come with new costume options, I asked would new major costume options would only come with booster packs? I suppose some of the day job civilian costume options would come under that banner, but perhaps they "slipped under the radar" to use an oft coined term because they don't have the same visual impact as sets like Enforcer, Stealth etc..
[ QUOTE ]
Was anything added in the last few patches?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, there's the day job cossies in i13, we've had Vanguard from i10(?), Stealth and Enforcer were in there somewhere, and the Roman options from i12.. Hmm.. now I actually come think about it, probably more than I initially gave Jay credit for 
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, so Zortel, my energy blaster, puts exploding ammunition rounds in her suit that doesn't fire bullets for more damage? Azure Arrow learns how do to fancy martial arts dragon strikes to make his arrows do more damage? My Psychic psychology student uses magical items and genetic alteration to become more adept at his powers?
I may be a roleplayer, but I don't let the game mechanic driven system dictate my characters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Forgive me if I'm being thick, but whilst I understand the point your're making, I don't understand the relevance to the quote.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, so Zortel, my energy blaster, puts exploding ammunition rounds in her suit that doesn't fire bullets for more damage? Azure Arrow learns how do to fancy martial arts dragon strikes to make his arrows do more damage? My Psychic psychology student uses magical items and genetic alteration to become more adept at his powers?
I may be a roleplayer, but I don't let the game mechanic driven system dictate my characters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Forgive me if I'm being thick, but whilst I understand the point your're making, I don't understand the relevance to the quote.
[/ QUOTE ]
You mentioned Training Origin enhancements. Zortel was pointing up how the way enhancements work and are named is jsut so much guff 
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14? (And let's face it, flight is just as much as an entrenched part of superhero lore as the cape is) Why do they start off with 1 attack power? Even the start off enhancements are called "Training Origin".
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, so Zortel, my energy blaster, puts exploding ammunition rounds in her suit that doesn't fire bullets for more damage? Azure Arrow learns how do to fancy martial arts dragon strikes to make his arrows do more damage? My Psychic psychology student uses magical items and genetic alteration to become more adept at his powers?
I may be a roleplayer, but I don't let the game mechanic driven system dictate my characters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Forgive me if I'm being thick, but whilst I understand the point your're making, I don't understand the relevance to the quote.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect it's related to the names/descriptions specific SOs have (often wildly inappropriate, given the power/origin they're enhancing), in the context of the name "Training Origin" itself having been put forward as significant.
This is probably a good time to mention the SO name "Back Alley Paralysing Strike" again, for cheap laughs.
Real World Parallel:
When I first started riding bikes I had to get "training" - this meant wearing a big orange bib saying "NOOB RIDER" on the back to show that I was "undergoing rigorous road awareness and safety training." (that was like 25 years ago it might be different now.)
Then I spent a long time knocking around with various bike clubs. Often they will make you go through a process of earning your membership some how. An extreme example would be the outlaw biker who gets to wear half the patch initially, to show he's a prospective member (hence being called Prospect.) Then when deemed worthy he gets made up to full member and entitled to the full patch.
Each item of apparel says something about the individual wearing it and their status within their environment. Just like the purchased, veteran and earned capes.
Thelonious Monk
At least it's not 'Monkey Grabs the Peach'. And yes, Standoff's correct.
Also, it's one thing I like about CO. Your hero can start off with Acrobatics, Super Jump, Super Speed or Flight, and you can then pick up others too
[ QUOTE ]
I'm quite aware of the reason from the pov of game mechanics; that wasn't what I asked. I realise your dismissal of thematic questions, and I daresay this would fall under that category.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I suppose it largely does because I can justify it in terms that doesn't conflict with the game its self.
For example:
I have a hero at level 1. He has all of his powers available to him but he knows the foes he is fighting are not difficult to beat so he uses the least amount of energy to deal with them by using the weakest attacks he can. He does this just in case there is something more dangerous around the corner. Similarly, being new to Paragon he might not know the city that well and so might be more cautious and could rest more to get his bearings. He also doesn't want to fly/jump/speed/tp around too much in case he misses something about the city that he's not seen before.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, not what I asked.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, my head's all over the place today. Maybe we'll see some extra wings or things in other packs (natural perhaps... although what is natural about having wings 
)
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probably more than I initially gave Jay credit for
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Actually, reading your list I was thinking to myself "Oh, I remember that now.. and that one". I suppose they haven't sunk in because I've only really been reading updates.
Maybe we won't get as many 'extra' costume bits anymore, you know the little tweaks to the costumes that happened once a while. Looks like we might get something with each issue though.
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(natural perhaps... although what is natural about having wings )
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You could have something more akin to a hang glider...
[ QUOTE ]
(natural perhaps... although what is natural about having wings )
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Depends on what you naturally are.
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[ QUOTE ]
As I see it. Heroes below level 20 are trainee heroes at best. By the time they hit level 20 they have shown that they have the right stuff. They have shown that they are worthy to wear a cape he very icon of a superhero.
I like this milestone a lot. It makes sense to have it. I agree that it absolutely not make sense to have heroes wearing their Valkyrie cape before level 20 though.
And yes this might be stifling to some people creativity but so do the other limits both as milestone or engine wise as I described above.
[/ QUOTE ]
As you see it, perhaps, but not as the game its self describes it. We've had this argument before, you can't justify this on thematic grounds. It doesn't hold up on either side. That is why no conceptual argument can be valid in terms of decisions that aren't purely based on gamelore.
What do you like about the milestone? Why does it make sense to have it? I can't see why myself when heros can have access to other capes at level 1. Where is the milestone now and if that milestone has eroded then what is its function?
The 'other limits' you described above (as I countered above) do not have the same link to the superhero sub-genre as the cape. As for then engine, there is no reason in the game engine for not doing this.
[/ QUOTE ]
The capes milestone makes sense. You start of like a loser who has enough power to beat up some local thugs. You are still learning the trade of being a superhero. There is a reason why the trainers are called trainers.
It makes sense that you don't get allowed to wear THE item that is so special as the cape. Just as commando's aren't allowed to wear their green beret before they have proven themself. The cape is a badge of honor. An honor you will have to earn. This in honor of Hero 1.
Now you can think and roleplay that you are the biggest hero/villain on the planet but that is not something supported in this game. This game is about the CoH universe, not about DC or Marvel or Champions or any of the ideas you may have created yourself.
What is utterly wrong is the fact that you now can buy a cape. A marketing ploy that is in contrast to the game. Should the game adapt istelf because some guy in a suit only wanting to make a few fast bucks says so? I think not. I will buy that valkyrie pack but i will not wear that cape before I hit 20.
[ QUOTE ]
Now you can think and roleplay that you are the biggest hero/villain on the planet but that is not something supported in this game. This game is about the CoH universe, not about DC or Marvel or Champions or any of the ideas you may have created yourself.
What is utterly wrong is the fact that you now can buy a cape. A marketing ploy that is in contrast to the game. Should the game adapt istelf because some guy in a suit only wanting to make a few fast bucks says so? I think not. I will buy that valkyrie pack but i will not wear that cape before I hit 20.
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman doesnt make the laws. There is no STATE LAW that says 'Heroes cannot wear capes until this point'. And the fact that not all heroes are even FROM the US, or even earth, makes that point completely moot.
And, as I have said before, this completely ignores the Villain side of things, where most characters attitudes is a big 'Up yours'.
You have the choice of not wearing the cape until 20. What is the issue here is that those who want to wear a normal cape pre-lvl 20 do not have the option. Which is contradictory and silly.
Anyway, why the hell should it be in respect of Hero 1 now? The guy isnt even dead! Although the teams I've been on to fight him would have had something to say about that.../e knuckles
Its not adressing the issue, either whichway.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
[ QUOTE ]
The capes milestone makes sense. You start of like a loser who has enough power to beat up some local thugs. You are still learning the trade of being a superhero. There is a reason why the trainers are called trainers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only if you buy in to that [conceptual] argument. You could just as easily say that the 'trainer' is just like a driving instructor, making sure you are ready for the next step; something you have to complete several goals to prove.
[ QUOTE ]
There is a reason why the trainers are called trainers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because Back Alley Brawler can teach Zortel how to install a new circuit system into her suit to let her fly, fire larger beams or let her move quicker. Or that she can only do this once she has the 'security levels'.
"You're SL 6 now, you can run faster if you want." "You can run faster now, so I'll grant you SL 6."
See, when you justify game mechanics IICly, we get into a whole load of trickyness.
[ QUOTE ]
See, when you justify game mechanics IICly, we get into a whole load of trickyness.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's why I tend to dismiss conceptual counter arguments
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a reason why the trainers are called trainers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because Back Alley Brawler can teach Zortel how to install a new circuit system into her suit to let her fly, fire larger beams or let her move quicker. Or that she can only do this once she has the 'security levels'.
"You're SL 6 now, you can run faster if you want." "You can run faster now, so I'll grant you SL 6."
See, when you justify game mechanics IICly, we get into a whole load of trickyness.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to see it this way:
"Your power has grown and this allows you to run faster. This additional power therefore grants you additional security clearance"
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
It makes sense that you don't get allowed to wear THE item that is so special as the cape. Just as commando's aren't allowed to wear their green beret before they have proven themself. The cape is a badge of honor. An honor you will have to earn. This in honor of Hero 1.
[/ QUOTE ]
And this also explains the villain side of it too. Given that the lowest level a hero is going to be is 20, it makes sense that as a villain you're going to need to be the same level to have the slightest chance of pinching it off him.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See, when you justify game mechanics IICly, we get into a whole load of trickyness.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's why I tend to dismiss conceptual counter arguments
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't it fair to say though, that conceptually you can make what seem to be limiting game mechanics fit however you like, without the need to change those mechanics?
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
As I see it. Heroes below level 20 are trainee heroes at best. By the time they hit level 20 they have shown that they have the right stuff. They have shown that they are worthy to wear a cape he very icon of a superhero.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the entire point. At present it is a 'given' in some books, that every hero before level 20 HAS to be a trainee, is inexeperienced, adn there is NO CHANCE THIS CAN BE ARGUED OR CHANGED.
Yes, im miffed at that, (not at you personally, Spade). What if it was an old hero who was coming back to fight crime, or someone from another dimension, or a time traveller, or anything like that? They might have worn a cape before, or might want one. And its DAMN sure that they couldnt be made to NOT wear one, as the City really cannot risk having yet more Villains going against it.
And the point is utterly and COMPLETELY moot for Villains. Some of them dont give two DAMNS what Recluse thinks. A prime example is Lord Atom, my rad/rad corruptor. He holds everyone on the planet in complete disregard, even himself most of the time, and I would really like to give him a cape to top off that classic Super Villain look. But I cant, as shoulder capes dont work for him and neither do the Valkyrie ones.
My point; Why should SOME be restricted when others arent, on a subject whose reasoning has been torn into so much confetti? Yes, there should be milestones, and achievements. But this is like saying that anyone who was born in Winter can instantly have the Winter themed parts, but anyone else has to slog to get them. Its a very similar thing, and makes about as much sense as the above example...