Fix PVP for the Casual PVPer. What's your remedy?
By
Assailant,
Posted on: 2008-12-29 18:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Get in place an in-game, automatic arena league and cup system, with in-game prizes and published listings. Involve supergroups in the system.
Zonal PvP has to be rejigged to be not just balanced for teams but also focused on teams. The decision to go into a PvP zone should be taken by a team, not individual players. For instance, with branching story trees, it should be possible to introduce PvP into regular PvE storylines as a choice to either continue the story as normal in the PvE zones, or branch out to perform story missions or patrol goals in PvP zones for a variant ending.
The incentives, "game flow", bonuses, rewards, wins and defeats of PvP has to be based on the team as the central entity rather than the individual character.
There must be some system put in place to gauge victories and defeats beyond "number of trips to the hospital." Even a simple on-screen counter of "villains / heroes killed in zone" (nulled out every half hour or something) would be a huge improvement, particularly if they also included personal and team kills / deaths.
Well I have to disagree with some of what you said, Scarlet. In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.
For what its worth, this is what would tempt me:
1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.
2. Phase Shift. (and other escape powers). Nerf them to the point of complete uselessness please.
3. Offensive Toggles. Make me laugh. Now you these get detoggled every 3 or 4 seconds it makes things like radiation infection useless. Supress them, dont detoggle.
4. Buff the effects of AoE powers by 50% stat.
5. Buff the effects of placable AoEs by 100%
6. PVP community attitude replacement.
There, that lot will help.
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PVP community attitude replacement.
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And that aint as antagonistic as the attitude you moan about i suppose.
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In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.
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You must be the only one.
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Phase Shift. (and other escape powers). Nerf them to the point of complete uselessness please.
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Already at that stage now almost
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PVP community attitude replacement.
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Well when you go that will help no ends,
ON the whole shocker some good ideas
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Well I have to disagree with some of what you said, Scarlet. In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.
For what its worth, this is what would tempt me:
1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.
2. Phase Shift. (and other escape powers). Nerf them to the point of complete uselessness please.
3. Offensive Toggles. Make me laugh. Now you these get detoggled every 3 or 4 seconds it makes things like radiation infection useless. Supress them, dont detoggle.
4. Buff the effects of AoE powers by 50% stat.
5. Buff the effects of placable AoEs by 100%
6. PVP community attitude replacement.
There, that lot will help.
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1. Might be okay for some.
2. Joke.
3. Joke.
4. Joke.
5. Placate needs fixing, if they dont fix it, they dont buff it.
6. Mega Joke.
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Fix PVP for the Casual PVPer.
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Why? Casual PvPers have lots of other stuff they can do in game.
It's the hard core PvPers, who would rather be doing PvP than anything else, who the game has to be fixed for.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Well I have to disagree with some of what you said, Scarlet. In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.
For what its worth, this is what would tempt me:
1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.
2. Phase Shift. (and other escape powers). Nerf them to the point of complete uselessness please.
3. Offensive Toggles. Make me laugh. Now you these get detoggled every 3 or 4 seconds it makes things like radiation infection useless. Supress them, dont detoggle.
4. Buff the effects of AoE powers by 50% stat.
5. Buff the effects of placable AoEs by 100%
6. PVP community attitude replacement.
There, that lot will help.
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Ok well thanks for the comments. I've got to say you're the first person to say that I'm aware of, that I13 is a good start.
I think your option 1 doesn't then mean you can be the best you can be. It's ok from a skill POV... but you reduce the build to SOs.
I've not experiened "escape toggles" as a huge thing (to my knowledge) but if it's in PVE, then shouldn't it be in PVP?
3) Agreed.
4 & 5) why? you've not explained that.
6) unworthy of comment. I think to be fair the PVP "community" have not been heard and so their "attitude" is fairly understandable. They pay their subs like everyone else and their percentage of teh game gets less love than most - and when it gets attention they feel it's negative, rather than beneficial.
I'd add to that that since I got into PVP in about I7, the whole thing's got worse from my own experience, not better until it's now dead on its feet.
Thelonious Monk
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Fix PVP for the Casual PVPer.
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Why? Casual PvPers have lots of other stuff they can do in game.
It's the hard core PvPers, who would rather be doing PvP than anything else, who the game has to be fixed for.
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Because some of us (and I speak as a casual PVPer) actually enjoy it. You might not. You have that prerogative. So you can still choose to not PVP. But I don't want a half-baked system that gets progressively worse. I want a system where more participans enjoy it, not less.
Thelonious Monk
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It's the hard core PvPers, who would rather be doing PvP than anything else, who the game has to be fixed for.
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To be honest, I don't think CoH can both satisfy its current PvE-heavy subscription-base and hardcore PvPers. To "fix" CoH in order to please hardcore PvPers strikes me as robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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It's the hard core PvPers, who would rather be doing PvP than anything else, who the game has to be fixed for.
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To be honest, I don't think CoH can both satisfy its current PvE-heavy subscription-base and hardcore PvPers. To "fix" CoH in order to please hardcore PvPers strikes me as robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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Exactly my point. You can't have a system which is simple enough to be causual friendly, and still have a system that provides a sutible challenge for hard core.
In a casual friendly system, any newbe needs to be able to wander into a zone for the first time and have a chance in a fight. That means seriously handicapping experienced players, since in a fair system an experienced, skilled veteran should squish the newbie like a bug.
issue 13 attempted to make PvP more accessable to casual pvpers. It's actually not that bad if you like a dumbed down experience. Its the hardcore who are complaining about it.
But casual PvPers are just that, casual. They don't PvP very often. It's the people who PvP regualy who will actually quit the game if the system isn't right, those are the people PvP needs to cater for as it's core market.
I really should do something about this signature.
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But casual PvPers are just that, casual. They don't PvP very often. It's the people who PvP regualy who will actually quit the game if the system isn't right, those are the people PvP needs to cater for as it's core market.
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But hardcore PvP-ers are not the core market for CoH (in fact, I'd go as far as to say they're not the core market for MMORPGs in general.) And while PvP is not going to be a deal-breaker for a casual PvP-er, it can still serve as "one more thing" to keep their attention and, with that, their subscription.
An extra TF would also help to keep the attention of a casual PvPer, and can be got right with a good deal less effort than trying to fix PvP (which has been shown, time and time again, to be a futile effort and a massive drain on developer resources).
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But hardcore PvP-ers are not the core market for CoH
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So you are basically saying "screw these guys, we don't need thier money" then?
I really should do something about this signature.
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So you are basically saying "screw these guys, we don't need thier money" then?
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I'm saying that I don't see any way in which CoH can both target hardcore PvP-ers and its current subscription base. For all practical concerns, yes, I do believe this means it would be a folly for NCSoft to listen overmuch to that segment.
(And, just for balance, it would be equally foolish of them to adjust the game trying to please the hardcore roleplayers.)
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issue 13 attempted to make PvP more accessable to casual pvpers. It's actually not that bad if you like a dumbed down experience. Its the hardcore who are complaining about it.
But casual PvPers are just that, casual. They don't PvP very often. It's the people who PvP regualy who will actually quit the game if the system isn't right, those are the people PvP needs to cater for as it's core market.
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Your'e wrong on 2 counts. I'm not "hardcore" and I'm complaining about the changes in I13.
And the hardcore have not quit. Tho I suspect they might if something doesn't get done.
Thelonious Monk
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So you are basically saying "screw these guys, we don't need thier money" then?
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I'm saying that I don't see any way in which CoH can both target hardcore PvP-ers and its current subscription base. For all practical concerns, yes, I do believe this means it would be a folly for NCSoft to listen overmuch to that segment.
(And, just for balance, it would be equally foolish of them to adjust the game trying to please the hardcore roleplayers.)
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All they had to do was leave pvp alone or listen to the changes that were asked for to satisfy the pvp comunity they did have.
And they had 5 years to realise their vision of pvp for all was going to be a failure, because 95% 0f this games players dont pvp because they dont want to pvp.
And that would have satisfied the PvE people because they wouldnt have had to see god knows how much time wasted on this epic fail.
As Praff said the resources poured into this farce could have been spent on a much needed villain SF for example.
And im saying this as someone who used to like a bit of PvP most nights.
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All they had to do was leave pvp alone or listen to the changes that were asked for to satisfy the pvp comunity they did have.
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Frankly, as long as NCSoft's strategy for CoX includes PvP, the opinions and views of the existing PvP community is not very important: they are fans of a style and form of PvP that, as far as we can say, does not appeal to the wider subscription base and does not appear to draw new people to the game.
The situation is similar to a flagging bar or nightclub: the views and opinions of the few remaining regulars quite honestly dosesn't matter, because it's not the regulars who are going to rejuvenate the venue and make it profitable again.
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And they had 5 years to realise their vision of pvp for all was going to be a failure, because 95% 0f this games players dont pvp because they dont want to pvp.
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While there is a vocal faction who seem moribound to oppose any kind of PvP, whichsoever, in CoH, I don't believe they're representative of the majority. I think the majority of CoH players hold views similar to my own: I'm not negative to the idea of PvP in CoH, just the current implementation.
First off you have to look at why people PvP.
Some players PvP for the challenge, they care less about winning or loosing. They just want to fight something they can not predict and that might out smart them.
Then you have the players who PvP for the achievement, they care about winning more then about the challenge. They want to get the best possible kills/deaths ratio.
What you have is conflicting interests, even among the dedicated PvPers. Now add to the mix the people that PvP for the tangible rewards, like Shivas or Nukes, or who are just trying out PvP to se how it is.
To get more PvPers, you have to keep the new PvPers interested. And you do not keep people interested in general by killing them in a few hits or giving then a snowballs chance in h*** of winning against a dedicated PvPer.
Sure, a few people will respond by trying to overcome the challenge, but most will write off PvP all together.
I think the PvP zones should be recycled as corporative PvE zones, or regular PvE zones (say Bloody Bay as co-op, and Sirens Call and 2 different versions 1 hero and 1 villain). The back storry in the zones would be better served in PvE.
PvP on the other hand should get some smaller zones with fewer NPCs, and make them accessible throe Pocked D. That way it should be easier for PvPers to find a fight when they want it. There could even be zones with special rules, like no travel powers, no temporary powers, or no invention bonuses. That should also make it easier for new player to try PvP.
I agree with the concepts you've suggested (although not all the solutions.)and actually alluded some of this in the CoH2 thread.
I havent bothered with PvP since the changes but I'll go on the oveerriding opinion that they are a royal mess.
Regardles of that for the moment, PvP is neatly tucked away out of sight of normal PvE.
But is that such a smart thing?
Apart from anything else a key issue is lack of accessability to Pvp. Particularily now when the servers are so quiet.
It is entirely possible to go to a zone and find no one to fight in the first place. Many players never see a fight at all.
Why cant base raids be extended to any zone in the game?
That way SGv SG raids will be more exciting, fighting all over city maps, more accessable, and other players could watch and maybe, just maybe want to try PvP for themselves.
I think the more people who see PvP in action, the more likely they are to want a go themselves.
Ii'm aware there is a serious issue with the PvP powers .One which may put off any newcomers to PvP.
I stated that I feel Cryptic actually got it near as damn it right first time round and since then have only succeeded in driving it too far away from a concept that was working and only had to be built upon and not taken apart entirely.
So how they fix the current scenario, or even if they are going to, is any bodies guess.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
PvP, in my opinion, does not include:
-see something flash by, being 80% HP hit while your oponent is already a 50-80ft away (at least).
-jumping around like crazy in a box that even popcorn would feel ashamed.
-from 1 moment to another standing in a pile of traps, your screen overflood with 'things' and 1 second later you are on the ground looking at the you-died-window.
-Without mez standing held, stunned, feared, whatever for 99% of the battle. (or either dead on the ground).
No, i would have liked they took a peak at their other game, Guildwars, i often just log on to see a battle between 2 big guilds. Or maybe towards other MMOs how they did their PvP.
Mezz imho is the main source of PvP problems. Yes, in pve you can lockdown pretty much everything you see for a infinitive of time, but in PvP people just dont like this. The whole PvE system was never designed to be PvP-able and probably will never be.
What i believe they should have done, made several 'template' arena's. Where certain aspects are disabled, heavily reduced or sortlike. It will give people the chance to experience different ways of PvP in CoH, rather that to stick up 1 kind of style (be it i12 or i13) and probably will never PvP. (good example is the winter event in GW, you get a fixed set of powers, its skills that make the difference - unlike here).
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In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.
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You must be the only one.
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He is not. I've been told by plenty that they enjoy the new PvP system. And even some who dislike PvP are thinking of giving it a go.
I haven't tried PvP in about 2 years so can't really comment much about the new system. But it seems to be drawing in new and old PvPers, and that can only be a good thing.
The major change that needs to be rolled back is the way mezzes and bf's work now. Bring back protection and get rid of resistance.
@Sweet Chilli
Put rewards in PVP like WoW does. Put PvP stuff and IOs that are only useful in PVP and not in PVE, so that way you could be uber/good in pvp with IOs that are not needed in pve. Remove mobs, badges and all the extra [censored] we dont need in pvp zones. Bring back mez protection and take off the heal nerf / movement supression. Give energy transfer the previous animation it had with decreased damage, Nerf earth/bubble.
On a similar but slightly different note - with the i13 changes to PvP self-heal has been adjusted as far as I have been able to discern. How would this affect me in RV - not PvP'ing, just pillbox/arachnos hunting? Would my fire tanks heal still be poorer than it once was?
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
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Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
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He is not. I've been told by plenty that they enjoy the new PvP system. And even some who dislike PvP are thinking of giving it a go.
I haven't tried PvP in about 2 years so can't really comment much about the new system. But it seems to be drawing in new and old PvPers, and that can only be a good thing.
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Given that
a) Far far more posts complaining about i13 pvp than praising it and
b ) The zones and arena boards are massively quieter than they were.
I think that the overriding impression is that it's pretty pants.
Sure, some people may say "I'll give it a go with the changes" but I imagine that a fair few of those would say the same *regardless* of what those changes were.
There's lots of threads in the pvp section of the boards regarding I13 pvp for those that haven't read them, just to save running over all the same stuff again 
Fahie
Ok I'm posting this here for 2 principal reasons:
1) The PVP section of this forum is a graveyard and only Hard Core PVPers go there. I hope this thread can be more inclusive of the wider community than that.
2) There is a small (but vocal) section of the community for whom PVP is the main reason to play CoX. There is a small section who "never PVP" (they claim) but in between there I believe there is a large (but generally silent) majority who get a lot of fun from PVP but are either not so into it they necessarily know the numbers or aren't that bothered that it gets "Broken"
Here is my basic premise, and the reason fro posting this: The PVP system in CoX is pretty broken now, especially in light of I13 changes. At least that is my own interpretation - from my own experiences in PVP (I am mostly an Arena PVPer) and from posts here, and discussions with other people who play.
The Problem: I13 tried to bring balance to a system where balance is a) almost impossible and b) more than undesirable. With the changes the Devs made they took a fundamentally flawed concept and tried to make the environment fit it. I'm not going to point blame at any single individual but collectively I believe they dropped the ball badly with this. I was prepared to give them a go but the proof of the pudding is in the proverbial eating and this one is badly undercooked and made with rotten eggs.
I believe it is unreasonable to expect, for example, a Defender to be able to beat a Scrapper if all other parameters are equal. Player skill should be the primary definition of the outcome, with build being a close second. In other word a great player on a [censored] build should be able to beat an average player on an excellent build. When I get beaten I want to know that I've been beaten by somebody with more skill than me and someone who has worked hard to get their toon to be of a suitable standard. Yes, I get beaten a lot. But I shouldn't get beaten by somebody with a similar skill level to me, when I'm playing my uber-slotted blaster and they are on a Defender with SOs.
My remedy for a Fix:
First, roll back I13 PVP changes. At least I12 worked, if not great. (But I sadly doubt this will happen for fear of a massive loss of Devs face.)
Secondly, then implement the following: Buff the primary characteristic of the AT. Blasters do kick@$$ damage. So let them do that. But a Defender can defend, a tank is exactly what it says. Maybe a defender cannot solo well in PVP. But then, why should they? A Defender can't solo well in PVE either. If you want a damage toon then choose something else. But give a Defender a massive role in Team PVP.
Third, I believe that it's overcomplicating things to have "Zone" and "Arena" PVP with different rule sets. Even with dual builds, that means you have a build missing unless you're dedicating yourself to PVP. There should be a single rule, end of.
Fourth: CoX lends itself to Team PVP more than Solo. I would much rather see Dev time dedicated to making PVP more accessible to the part-time PVPer which will then have a knock on effect - the better PVP is for more people the more fun it becomes. THAT will bring in people who enjoy PVP in other games. Win/Win.
Fifth: PVP Server Environment Server: Give us a server with PVP all over (yes I know it would need work) and also remove the need for anyone who is really anti-PVP to go into the zones on the PVE servers. (ie exploration badges etc.) Yes, if you're a badge-wossname, then you might miss out unless you bite the bullet but some sacrifices have to be made.
Sixth: A Dedicated PVP Champion amongst the Devs. Somebody who will have as a major part of their brief the PVP community.
Those are my suggestions. Maybe not all entirely original, some I've gleaned from others and added my own take - but this isn't to plagiarise, it's to get a discussion going. I'm sure there are plenty of other good discussions to be had, so let's have them and see if we can finally get those with the reins in their hands to take notice!
Thelonious Monk