COH2 predicted by Massively
By
Alvan,
Posted on: 2008-12-27 20:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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one thing ppl has to consider, COX was original made for PVE-only, so it's not such a wonder that PVP doesn't work out the way it is now.
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I stated in an earlier post that was not the case.
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Not strictly the case, it was designed with the intent to add PvP in time, but that didn't alter the core game and all the AT's being designed primarily for PvE play. Such is blatantly obvious in the difficulties experienced with balancing the game for PvP.
IF it had been designed with PvP from the start, this issue wouldn't exist.
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It is totally 100% the case. the game was built with Arena and the PvP that goes into the arena, in mind.
The fact that the devs did not have the foresite to develop PvP itself, knowing that they were going to implement it, is one of the many things the game is, as you say, paying for to this very day.
And on the subject of balancing PvP, well that is its own subject but I happen to think they got it, if not right, certainly on the right path, in their very first attempt.
They just didnt follow it through with content designed to really encourage teamed PvP properly. So people never really in any great volume, attempted it. Sort of building a sports car then not having any roads that the car can really run on.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
I've said in the past, though it met with opposition from some people. PvP needs to be open, in any zone, with a player controlled flag. No challenges to duels like WoW... Just open PvP that anyone can take part in IF they flag themselves, and anyone unflagged can't be attached or attack in return.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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IF it had been designed with PvP from the start, this issue wouldn't exist.
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It is totally 100% the case. the game was built with Arena and the PvP that goes into the arena, in mind.
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No it's not. If it were the case, arena's would have existed at launch instead of not arriving until issue 4, with a half arsed story explanation that barely makes sense within the game world.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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I've said in the past, though it met with opposition from some people. PvP needs to be open, in any zone, with a player controlled flag. No challenges to duels like WoW... Just open PvP that anyone can take part in IF they flag themselves, and anyone unflagged can't be attached or attack in return.
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100% agree.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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I've said in the past, though it met with opposition from some people. PvP needs to be open, in any zone, with a player controlled flag. No challenges to duels like WoW... Just open PvP that anyone can take part in IF they flag themselves, and anyone unflagged can't be attached or attack in return.
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100% agree.
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Solves the problem of godmodders in RP too... Assuming you can persuade them to flag for PvP, that is. 
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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IF it had been designed with PvP from the start, this issue wouldn't exist.
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It is totally 100% the case. the game was built with Arena and the PvP that goes into the arena, in mind.
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No it's not. If it were the case, arena's would have existed at launch instead of not arriving until issue 4, with a half arsed story explanation that barely makes sense within the game world.
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I followed the games development from the very first time it was announced back god knows when. Arenas and therefore PvP were in the pre alpha or beta Qand As. Can you please accept certain things at face value? PvP was intended from the start.
I know the contrary to that is why was it so under developed.?
My theory, based on reading between the lines of early interviews abnd such like is that they didnt think it would take off initially (prior to CoV) because its anti thematic for heroes to pound each other in Atlas park. So players wouldnt do it.
In fact Statesman alluded to this by claiming the arena was where heroes could "train " against each other.
I actually understand this. They felt they didnt want to devot much energy to something that wasnt going to take off any time soon.
They were, in hindsite, wrong, but thats 20-20 vision for you.
And there is no excuse for them leaving it as late as they did and creating the havoc that global nerfs and Ed caused to accomodate it. And before I get a million posts stating that PvP wasnt the reason for the nerfs, it most definately, at least partly, was.
They thought that CoV would be a massive spinner and that PvP between the two sides WOULD be massive.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Sorudo said CoX. Last time I checked PRAF, CoX was both CoH and CoV combined. Please do correct me if I am wrong on that one though.
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even whine COX means both COH and COV, the design is still PVP unfriendly, and still doesn't have the mind set on PVP totally.
the balance for PVP solved some things, but the game is wrongly designed from the beginning for PVP.
there are 2 facts to back that up.
1. you are required to be lvl 50, so you can say that PVP is a part of the game you need to play PVE for over a year only to have a chance.
2. for true balance in PVP, the whole mechanism of COX needs to be changed, it needs to be more simple build and disadvantages needs to be balanced.(and believe me, if they do that, COX you know now is no more, beside the tons of work to do that)
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1. you are required to be lvl 50, so you can say that PVP is a part of the game you need to play PVE for over a year only to have a chance.
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Umm, whut? Since when do you need to be level 50 before you can PvP? You can access the arena from level 1, and zonal from what, 15? Hardly level 50...
It also doesn't take a year, even for someone new to the game. Hell, I didn't exactly rush on my first 50, and managed it in 5 months, on i3 code... In that time, LOADS of people got their 50's, and the first level 50 in the UK was done in 2 weeks.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
the argument of weather or not PvP was intended to be in CoX is pretty mute as its in and i cant see them removing it even if the do decide to do a CoH2 its still going to have PvP.
CoH problem was that when they did implement it it was badly implemented
when there was only heroes they gave us arenas but there was no league system or similar in place so it was left up to the players and the different groups to come up with there on leagues i believe if the arenas had come with a assortment of different leagues they would have attracted far more interest.
when CoV came along i think they once again made a mistake at that point they should have went for a more open world PvP system IMO using a series of flags for those players who didn't want to take part or something.
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After all, the scarlet witch isnt gonna do all that well in a fight with Thor is she? - Unless she gets that one hex in.
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Which she will succeed in doing 100% of the time if the story requires it
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Yeah but that's the point. this isnt a story. It's live playing so you cant apply your point here.
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But that is my point 
In a comicbook story, all heroes and villains can find a way of defeating each other if the story requries it, but in a comicbook game, some ATs/classes will just be stronger than others because they're designed to be that way.
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I reread your post and you are right. I read it wrong. Sorry. I agree with your post, which by the way, was excellent and well thought out.
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You are forgiven - for now
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I am wrong on that one though.
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even whine COX means both COH and COV, the design is still PVP unfriendly, and still doesn't have the mind set on PVP totally.
the balance for PVP solved some things, but the game is wrongly designed from the beginning for PVP.
there are 2 facts to back that up.
1. you are required to be lvl 50, so you can say that PVP is a part of the game you need to play PVE for over a year only to have a chance.
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Spot the noob!
@Sweet Chilli
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I've said in the past, though it met with opposition from some people. PvP needs to be open, in any zone, with a player controlled flag. No challenges to duels like WoW... Just open PvP that anyone can take part in IF they flag themselves, and anyone unflagged can't be attached or attack in return.
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Even then, it doesnt suit the theme of this game, heroes dont fight eachother 'anywhere'. So only a world where villians and heroes are at the same time would 'suit' it, but merely between those 2, never at 1 side alone.
I care little about pvp, be it CoH or CoH2. If they cant make up a better playing enviroment, the game itself wont even be 'succesfull' anyway.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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heroes dont fight eachother 'anywhere'.
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Sure they do. It's a comic book cliche that heroes usually fight the first time they meet up (wherever that happens to be) before teaming up to defeat the villain.
Anyway, in a hypothetical CoH2 I would do PvP like this:
1) The challenge. A hero or team of heroes can challenge another hero/or team of heroes to combat. This is to rpresent non-lethal sparing and fighting to settle disputes. The challenge can be declined, and a player can only make a limited number of challenges per day, to minimise irritating spamming. The combat takes place in the imediate location, travel powers work, but anyone using a travel power to flee the location is considered defeated.
2) Faction. I would not have a "villain" faction as in CoV, a mission based MMO simply does not represent a true supervillain well. Instead I would alow players to become "outlaws" If they are too ruthless/mercenery in thier choice of mission. Licenced Heroes and Outlaws can engage either other in PvP any time, however, see point 3.
3) Secret Identities. Characters can move around the game world using thier secret identity. Whilst in secret identity mode they cannot engage or be engaged in PvP, and can choose to be completely invisible to other players.
4) PvP Scenarios. Basically ripped off from WAR.
I really should do something about this signature.
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heroes dont fight eachother 'anywhere'.
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Sure they do. It's a comic book cliche that heroes usually fight the first time they meet up (wherever that happens to be) before teaming up to defeat the villain.
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Gap between heroes and villains has been diminished since a long time in comics. (I am not talking about current junk comics) It should be so that characters arent 'born' as heroes or villains, rather it should be that their actions define them. KOTOR-style, Fable-style, etc.
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1. you are required to be lvl 50, so you can say that PVP is a part of the game you need to play PVE for over a year only to have a chance.
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Umm, whut? Since when do you need to be level 50 before you can PvP? You can access the arena from level 1, and zonal from what, 15? Hardly level 50..
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In practise NOBODY seems to pvp below 50. Not even on union, let alone defiant. Best I can get is lvl 40 sometimes. The other zones apart from RV are regularly empty.
ps. My first 50 took like 8 months. Cant say it was fast, but I wasnt trying to grind either.
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Even then, it doesnt suit the theme of this game, heroes dont fight eachother 'anywhere'. So only a world where villians and heroes are at the same time would 'suit' it, but merely between those 2, never at 1 side alone.
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I disagree. Comics are rife with "vs" stories of heroes fighting each other. Spider-Man, for example has fought against the Human Torch, DareDevil, The Hulk, and Superman and that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. Thematically, open PvP suits quite well, actually.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
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It should be so that characters arent 'born' as heroes or villains, rather it should be that their actions define them. KOTOR-style, Fable-style, etc.
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Agree.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Thematically, open PvP suits quite well, actually.
[/ QUOTE ]But would turn places like Atlas Park into a gankfest. Open Free-for-all PvP (Hero vs Hero/Hero vs Villain) is all very well in theory but it wouldn't work in practice.
Also Paragon City heroes are supposed to be more regulated than the Marvel and DC types. So thematically for CoX it wouldn't work. If they've got a grudge then they can take it to the Arena rather than trash a city block because someone stood on someone's toe. Something similar although more villainous in motivation could well apply in the Rougue Isles.
Either way it's better if non-arena PvP is restricted to Blue vs Red.
While the idea of a KOTOR style morality gauge would be idealistically preferrable I don't think it would fit thematically with the game setting. At some point the powers that be would make a call on whether you are "one of them" or not. Boy scouts aren't welcome in the Rogue Isles, the likes of Scrapyarder and Sea Witch are good examples of what happens to them. Similarly villains or those with villainous leanings don't manage so well in Statesman's back yard.
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Thematically, open PvP suits quite well, actually.
[/ QUOTE ]But would turn places like Atlas Park into a gankfest. Open Free-for-all PvP (Hero vs Hero/Hero vs Villain) is all very well in theory but it wouldn't work in practice.
Also Paragon City heroes are supposed to be more regulated than the Marvel and DC types. So thematically for CoX it wouldn't work. If they've got a grudge then they can take it to the Arena rather than trash a city block because someone stood on someone's toe. Something similar although more villainous in motivation could well apply in the Rougue Isles.
Either way it's better if non-arena PvP is restricted to Blue vs Red.
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Didn't say whether open PvP was a good idea or not, just that using the argument "heroes never fight anywhere" was flawed because of countless examples in comics, which is what this game is based on. I agree that the game as it stands could not cope with open world PvP simply because of the levelling system and that is a far more valid reason for not including it than a thematic one, imo.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
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Thematically, open PvP suits quite well, actually.
[/ QUOTE ]But would turn places like Atlas Park into a gankfest. Open Free-for-all PvP (Hero vs Hero/Hero vs Villain) is all very well in theory but it wouldn't work in practice.
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Not possible if everyone has individual PvP flags. And you can prevent "flag abuse" with people toggling the flag on and off by giving it a cooldown period. You toggle it, it takes say, 30 seconds to actually toggle, and you can't retoggle for say... 15 minutes? That will put paid to people hiding behind their flag.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Not possible if everyone has individual PvP flags. And you can prevent "flag abuse" with people toggling the flag on and off by giving it a cooldown period. You toggle it, it takes say, 30 seconds to actually toggle, and you can't retoggle for say... 15 minutes? That will put paid to people hiding behind their flag.
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Now, this is just my irrefutable, divinely inspired and unassailable opinion, but I personally prefer the more relaxed milieu given by dedicated PvE zones, and wouldn't want to see a flag-based PvP system introduced.
I just had a brainstorming idea for balancing ATs in CoX. The main problem seems to be disparity between Blue and Red. So, why not take the branching powerset system from VEATs and apply it to ATs. It would take a heckload of tweaking.
For example:
Basic AT: Tough Guy (High HP - Moderate Damage)
Starts off with basic punch-voking taunt mechanic like brutes have. Power sets are as Brute/Tanker with a choice of offence or defence being primary (canot be changed after creation).
At L24 it gets a branching respec into Guardian/Enforcer or Crusader/Brute with modifiers set accordingly (G/E get Gauntlet, a buff to defensive powers and a decrease in damage. C/B get Fury (probably renamed blue side) and slight damage buff.
Something similar could be done for Scrapper/Stalker melee DPS and Defender/Corruptor ranged support. Blaster/Dominator seems like the nearest pairing to fit for these two ATs.
How Controllers and Masterminds would work in this way is my only dead end. Ideas?
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Not possible if everyone has individual PvP flags. And you can prevent "flag abuse" with people toggling the flag on and off by giving it a cooldown period. You toggle it, it takes say, 30 seconds to actually toggle, and you can't retoggle for say... 15 minutes? That will put paid to people hiding behind their flag.
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Now, this is just my irrefutable, divinely inspired and unassailable opinion, but I personally prefer the more relaxed milieu given by dedicated PvE zones, and wouldn't want to see a flag-based PvP system introduced.
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Which is perfectly fine. As I said initially, several people have said in the past that they wouldn't like such a system. I merely advance it as a possibly more feasible approach to making PvP more accessible.
Personally, I'd generally keep any such flag disabled, but there HAVE been occasions in the past where I've sorely wished I could pound the snot out of some idiot who insists on annoying me.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Not possible if everyone has individual PvP flags. And you can prevent "flag abuse" with people toggling the flag on and off by giving it a cooldown period. You toggle it, it takes say, 30 seconds to actually toggle, and you can't retoggle for say... 15 minutes? That will put paid to people hiding behind their flag.
[/ QUOTE ]That might work however entering enemy territory would have to remove the option to toggle.
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I think the lessons need to be learned for CoX2. If they are going to do PvP (and, as GG says, it does fit with the comic book hero theme) it needs to be part of the core game - something you will be introduced to naturally through play, not something way off to the side. WAR made a good job of this. CO looks like making the same mistake as CoX: however good or bad the PvP is, they are shunting it off to the side in arenas, condemning it to be a minority activity.
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Agreed. The worst thing about arenas and pvp zones is that the activety itself doesnt get any "publicity." Unless you make the active choice to go to one of these zones there is no way you can get hooked on the "bug,"
That's a key reason most people dont PvP in the first place. They dont fancy the idea so they cant be bothered to go to the zones and make the effort. If it was more "in your face" they may find they enjoy what they see and want to have a go themselves.
And yes, CO do seem to be making the same error.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...