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Please can you say why you want suggestions for a change to containment which is one of the best inherents in the game.
Is it because you dont think controllers should be able to do damage? Do you think containment should increase some other stat as opposed to damage?
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God you always get so uptight when someone suggests anything which may affected farming OMG the world is DOOOOMED 
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for the inherents to be swapped between Controllers and Dominators
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This. Although you would probably need to up the damage a bit on some of the controller attacks (at least single-target ones).
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
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for the inherents to be swapped between Controllers and Dominators
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This. Although you would probably need to up the damage a bit on some of the controller attacks (at least single-target ones).
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You aint having my domination!
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for the inherents to be swapped between Controllers and Dominators
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This. Although you would probably need to up the damage a bit on some of the controller attacks (at least single-target ones).
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You aint having my domination!
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Surely thats the whole conceptual point of the inherents to bring something different to the table. If you do the change you mention you automatically nerf the dominator's concept. To whoever mentioned it: the reason doms got good buffs in PvP is because they have the lowest HP of any CoX AT, no defences and were found to be grossly underperforming (source?). Take any dom build to SC and I bet it won't be long before you die (its also so grossly imbalanced in the favour of heroes already [censored] would anyone want it more so?)
Also the dom and troller are both hard to solo generally (saying in descriptions of both even at character creation) - I always thought that was largely the whole point to be a small, frail char that requires careful thought and strategy to win rather than just hold and plough. If they messed around with the inherents of these ATs I'd probably stop playing both.
And no you can't have my domination either
Do I?
From my experience of your posts you seem to be vocal about anyone defending farming and just as uptight as you make me out to be :P
Tuarus said:
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To answer the question, if containment was going to be replaced, i would replace it with a modifier that decreased damage for team size, but increased mags of holds. This would work by allowing the soloer to do more damage, but then as people joined the team I would decrease in dishing out damage but be able to hold the bigger mobs for longer etc. Dont know how hard to implement but just a suggestion that would keep most happy.
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Sugar_Rush said:
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If I were going to change the controller inherent, I'd start with making containment a global buff/debuff effect (although much lower than it is, a similar amount to the leadership Assault buff maybe) so all team members get the benefit; buff the controllers holds and immobs so they last longer (seriously, some of the holds are stupidly short) and maybe increase controller base damage a smidge.
This would be a massive buff and sizeable nerf at the same time, but promoting a controller's controlling abilities over the damage-dealing ones, which I think is the OPs intention.
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I like the ideas behind both of these suggestions a good deal.
The problem (as far as I understand it) with setting up Containment as a buff is the order in which checks are carried out - when a power hits, it checks for the held/immob/stun/sleep state of the target and applies a second chunk of damage if true. Applying a buff at that point is to late to buff the same power, since it's already hit...
Sugar_Rush's suggestion would work around that nicely. I'd see it working as an aura type effect which checks the Mez status of all mobs within a given radius and applies a global buff as described. Personally, I'd have no problem with that still being a damage buff to all (including the controller) but I do agree that buffing Mez duration for the Controller would be more conceptually pleasing.
My problem with Containment at the moment isn't that if increases damage output (that's what it was introduced for, even if it does feel conceptually awkward), but that it increases damage output in a broken and thoroughly imbalanced way. Very nice suggestion for a way to improve that situation.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
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Surely thats the whole conceptual point of the inherents to bring something different to the table. If you do the change you mention you automatically nerf the dominator's concept. To whoever mentioned it: the reason doms got good buffs in PvP is because they have the lowest HP of any CoX AT, no defences and were found to be grossly underperforming (source?). Take any dom build to SC and I bet it won't be long before you die (its also so grossly imbalanced in the favour of heroes already [censored] would anyone want it more so?)
Also the dom and troller are both hard to solo generally (saying in descriptions of both even at character creation) - I always thought that was largely the whole point to be a small, frail char that requires careful thought and strategy to win rather than just hold and plough. If they messed around with the inherents of these ATs I'd probably stop playing both.
And no you can't have my domination either
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Hey, you can't have my Domination either, and I suggested it!
I did say in the original post that it was much too late to make a change like that now.
But, conceptually, doing a load of extra damage to helpless enemies seems more villainous to me (and so would make sense as a villain inherent) whereas getting supercharged control powers for a bit as a reward for using control powers would seem to suit Controllers. I wasn't seriously suggesting that such a change could/would/should be made.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
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Hey, you can't have my Domination either, and I suggested it!
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I quoted it in a half-serious way since I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with Containment (or Domination) at the moment. But I agree with the general point about how conceptually, Domination is closer to what you would expect as an inherent for controllers (and I play both). If anything I think that giving Containment (as it is now) to Dominators would probably make them over-powered.
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
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Hey, you can't have my Domination either, and I suggested it!
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I quoted it in a half-serious way since I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with Containment (or Domination) at the moment. But I agree with the general point about how conceptually, Domination is closer to what you would expect as an inherent for controllers (and I play both). If anything I think that giving Containment (as it is now) to Dominators would probably make them over-powered.
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Due entirely to super-sexy other attacks gaining containment damage? Gimme.
@Drakmarth & @Drakmarth2
Avatar by S. Wall
#415877 - An Uncivil War: Preclude - Looking for Feedback
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Hey, you can't have my Domination either, and I suggested it!
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I quoted it in a half-serious way since I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with Containment (or Domination) at the moment. But I agree with the general point about how conceptually, Domination is closer to what you would expect as an inherent for controllers (and I play both). If anything I think that giving Containment (as it is now) to Dominators would probably make them over-powered.
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I've got to admit domination gives me sucky damage compared to my controller, and containment doesn't actually help me control. If they were reversed both my character would be a damn sight better at what I want them to do
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
It is nice to see that the thread has turned much more civilised and constructive.
I wanted to post in it, but was quite afraid to do so because I didnt want to be attacked like others were.
My opinion on Containment:
Thematically, doesnt make much sense for the AT.
Mechanically, the double (buffed) damage is unlike any other buff in the game and that makes it a bit unbalanced. Although for most controllers (who do not do a lot of damage) that isnt a great problem.
The assumption: if you lower controller damage output, soloing becomes more difficult.
The proposed solution (aka. very strange idea and nearly impossible to implement and balance):
Design new additional ways to defeat opponents that are not related to damage
For example:
If you can keep a foe mezzed for over a certain amount of time, it is automatically defeated.
Or, if you can keep a foe without endurance for a certain time, defeated.
I think it would make controllers that not specialize in damage (or that dont have a lot of damage in their sets) more viable solo, and could add a bit of variety to the game. Everybody could take benefit of that and would give the devs a lot more different possibilities for powers
and a hell of a hard time to balance things, yes.
Anyway, it was just a thought.
I also like the idea of making the damage/control proportions change depending on the number of teammates. Something similar could be done with defenders inherent.
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Mechanically, the double (buffed) damage is unlike any other buff in the game
[/ QUOTE ]Except for scourge, and scrapper/stalker crits.
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Mechanically, the double (buffed) damage is unlike any other buff in the game
[/ QUOTE ]Except for scourge, and scrapper/stalker crits.
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OK. My fault. You are absolutely right.
Let's then say... it is different that any other buff in the game that a player has total control over.
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Mechanically, the double (buffed) damage is unlike any other buff in the game
[/ QUOTE ]Except for scourge, and scrapper/stalker crits.
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It's different from both of them as it can very easily (and in a controlled, predictable way) be made to apply to practically every attack ( n-1 in an attack chain of n attacks for any Controller who cares to try).
As you already knew.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
Stalkers can control it too, they just got to be on hide
let PA/imps benefit from containment and everything will be perfect in my world 
No need to change this, lets the majority of us solo much easier when we cant find teams or just want to chill for a bit.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Stalkers can control it too, they just got to be on hide
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Thanks for that. Do your Stalkers find they can constantly chain criticals? If not it's quite clearly mechanically different from Containment.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
They can chain criticals with placate (and nin has a couple of them, one of which is aoe too). And unlike trollers, they can have their criticals without actually needing to stack two attacks. Besides, stalkers can crit on mezzed baddies too, just like containment
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They can chain criticals with placate (and nin has a couple of them, one of which is aoe too). And unlike trollers, they can have their criticals without actually needing to stack two attacks. Besides, stalkers can crit on mezzed baddies too, just like containment
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That is an interesting set of comparisons, but still substantially different from Containment - if you have to apply placate between attacks, you aren't chaining criticals.
Looking at it in the same way as I did above, a controller will achieve containment damage in n-1 of n power uses (there are a few exceptions to that, but it should be possible for all controllers under most circumstances). For Stalkers using placate, n/2 power uses will get criticals (the other n/2 being uses of Placate) so the damage boost is not that high (the safety boost is huge, of course). Nin is an exception to that, as you point out, but the same principle still applies.
As far as I'm aware, Stalker attacks only have a chance of critical (20%, I think) against Mezzed enemies.
Your points are well taken, but Stalker criticals still don't provide the constant stream of double damage + double buffs that Containment does, although they are the closest comparison. That said, although I don't like the doubling up mechanism much even there the Stalker AT is all about gaining critical damage by setting up the fight to your advantage - surely it's not really right that they can do it only with a fraction of the efficiency of a Controller? That of course is a thematic distinction not a mechanical one and so really belongs in another post
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
I wouldn't exactly replace containment but I would take containment OFF some powers.
@False Fiction - Virtue / Defiant
Current projects - [Glaciologist - Ill/Cold Troller] [Cloudshaper - Storm/Dark Def] [Harald Wartooth - Elec/Psi Domi]
I feel like I'm stepping into a minefield here, but here goes.
The thing that's always struck me about containment is while it makes a certain amount of sense that a held/immobilised foe should take more damage (as they can't dodge) it's never made sense (to me) that this extra damage should be restricted to the controllers; it makes even less sense when I can get containment damage on a mob that another controller has contained.
If I were going to change the controller inherent, I'd start with making containment a global buff/debuff effect (although much lower than it is, a similar amount to the leadership Assault buff maybe) so all team members get the benefit; buff the controllers holds and immobs so they last longer (seriously, some of the holds are stupidly short) and maybe increase controller base damage a smidge.
This would be a massive buff and sizeable nerf at the same time, but promoting a controller's controlling abilities over the damage-dealing ones, which I think is the OPs intention.
Before this generates flames, I'm not advocatiog a change to containment, just suggesting what such a change might be.
For the record, I have several controllers - a level 30ish Mind/Kin, a 20ish Ill/Sonic and a 39 Ice/Rad, all made after containment was introduced; I've deleted about 4 others at around level 10-15 before containment was introduced, as I found them too difficult to solo - i have one controller I made prior to containment - a fire/kin, who sits unloved at 16; the promise of higher damage does not neccesarily equal enjoyment in my book when it comes to controllers - I like them to control.