ACtually this seems a very pertinent point.
At level 50 the cost of defeat is so little the game beceomes much more focussed on "damage" toons that "protect" toons.
This should really be addressed.
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Why say you can when you havn't tested the latest game version?
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I know I could with the previous version, by a margin greater than the 12.5% buff. It's not an easy thing to set up and test though (part of the problem being oil slick damage not showing in combat logs).
But I notice you are not challenging me on:
Controllers outdamaging Dominators, Defenders, or Stalkers, all of which are listed as medium or high damage ATs, whilst controllers are listed as "low damage" in the in game AT description.
Maybe we should keep containment as is and change the in game description of controllers from low damage to high damage?
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How can I? I don't have any of those ATs that are built as damage dealers. Therefore I can't and won't be drawn on the issue one way or the other.
There is very little point my trying to join a debate on a subject I don't know. Kinda like asking for a nerf on a toon type you've never played.
It is not logical.
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Where the hell is this complete safety part come from. My farmer dies regually but it doesnt bother me either. The safety of a farming toon comes from the fact that the toon is 50 and debt is irelavant.
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You sometimes get defeated? 
It's true, fire/kin sucks. Ill/TA FTW.
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To be fair - it's not his build that lets him down, it's his play style. If he puts his mind to it he can out last a stone tank, going toe to toe with an AV. And yes - I've seen it.
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Where the hell is this complete safety part come from. My farmer dies regually but it doesnt bother me either. The safety of a farming toon comes from the fact that the toon is 50 and debt is irelavant.
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I said almost complete safety. Surely you aren't arguing against the idea that a Controller operates from a position of vastly greater safety than a Blaster?
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
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Where the hell is this complete safety part come from. My farmer dies regually but it doesnt bother me either. The safety of a farming toon comes from the fact that the toon is 50 and debt is irelavant.
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I said almost complete safety. Surely you aren't arguing against the idea that a Controller operates from a position of vastly greater safety than a Blaster?
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Position is no guarantee of safety.
If one toon is safer and does more damage than another (ono average) something is out of kilter and needs anjusting if you ask me.
It will all come out in the wash (i.e. datamining) anyway.
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Where the hell is this complete safety part come from. My farmer dies regually but it doesnt bother me either. The safety of a farming toon comes from the fact that the toon is 50 and debt is irelavant.
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I said almost complete safety. Surely you aren't arguing against the idea that a Controller operates from a position of vastly greater safety than a Blaster?
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Position is no guarantee of safty.
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If you mean distance from enemies, I agree. I'm referring to Controllers normally spending most of their time in the position of attacking enemies that have no way of attacking back. Fairly safe, I think you'd agree!
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
If it is true that a controller can out damage a blaster, then surly on the new changes to taunt he wont be very safe at all and will draw aggro regardless of what else is about.
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If it is true that a controller can out damage a blaster, then surly on the new changes to taunt he wont be very safe at all and will draw aggro regardless of what else is about.
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Like a tank?
I thought they did something with threat levels that made it possible to pull aggro of a tank that had been taunting mobs by doing lots of damage or did I understand that wrong.
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I thought they did something with threat levels that made it possible to pull aggro of a tank that had been taunting mobs by doing lots of damage or did I understand that wrong.
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The latter - but in either case it doesn't really matter. A controller's safety comes from enemies not being able to attack back, so it doesn't really matter who has their aggro.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
My poor Mind/Emp/Psi can't even begin to reach the level of damage my Fire/Dev/Flame puts out... so while PRAF's statement might be true for some powerset combos some of the time, it certainly isn't a blanket statement.
Having said that, I really would like to see my holds go back to pre Containment values, even if it meant losing the damage capability. I soloed Blue up to 32 (back when there was none of this Containment) and only started having trouble with killing mobs (and by trouble I mean spending lots of time on each one) when I got to level 35.
Actually, I want pre Containment holds with pre Controller AoE nerfs (I loved what I used to be able to do with Psionic Tornado). Now that's what I call fun! ^_^
At least for me... 
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
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Not good blasters
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Any blasters. Quite easily (and without any of this faceplanting nonsense). And dominators by a massive margin.
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Not any Blaster's. There is no way a Controller will outdamage a well built blaster for Single Target (Say Ice/Elec or Ice/EM) or AoE (Fire/Fire ro Elec/Fire) damage. I've got a Fire/Kin/Fire and a Fire/Rad/Primal and arguably both are incredibly damaging combinations in a lot of circumstances but a good Blaster will outstrip them by far.
Oh and no mention of -Res or +Dam (like Fulcrum) because those are specific to certain sets rather than the AT itself. Besides, give an Elec/Fire Fulcrum to the damage cap and they'll do bette than a Fire/Kin.
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Not good blasters
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Any blasters. Quite easily (and without any of this faceplanting nonsense). And dominators by a massive margin.
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I see you have never played a blaster or a good blaster anyway, there is noway you can out damage a blaster, id pay to see that.
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Where the hell is this complete safety part come from. My farmer dies regually but it doesnt bother me either. The safety of a farming toon comes from the fact that the toon is 50 and debt is irelavant.
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You sometimes get defeated?
It's true, fire/kin sucks. Ill/TA FTW.
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I'm so positive about blasters beat trollers in dmg that I won't use any of my /nrg or /elec blappers, but my full aoeish fire/fire to show you my single target damage beats your illu/ta by a tremendous gap anytime when I'm back on feb 10th if you like
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Illusion doesn't do all that well out of containment, since it only affects a small part of Spectral wounds damage, and Flash is rubbish.
I like my contoller to. I just find it odd that she outdamages blasters.
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If your happy then why start a thread asking to change it?
And with the way Defiance now work I doubt if a roller could out damage a blaster - just an opinion.
Heres an idea - why don't we ask the Powers that Be to leave ALL the current power sets alone and spend the time developing new power sets and new in game content.
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Agreed
I like containment, it seems to fit the AT very nicely. It rewards the controller for controlling, it speeds up the near-inevitable defeat of contained enemies, and it helps the only support power taking AT besides the defender to solo, which I'm all in favor of.
To be fair, how many damage dealing powers (that can potentially out-damage a Blaster) do Controller's get? Sure, my damage output on Propel against a "Contained" mob is powerful, but it's also incredibly slow "casting" time, uses a lot of Endurance, and isn't spectacularly accurate. Maybe other Controller's are different (I've only got a high level Grav/Emp to my account name), but I don't think I'm particularly overpowered.
As to the "position of safety" with the holds: yes, we are pretty safe, provided that we are on the ball and play our part well. Post-Containment introduction, AoE Holds are just a way of delaying a lot of agro for a few seconds (and it doesn't recharge fast enough to get a second go in a fight) and AoE Immobs just prevent close quarters melee damage.
Personally, I would like to see some return to pre-Containment levels of controlling for a lot of the time. Containment is good for soloing, but on a team, it's next to worthless for the time it takes to actually do the damage: someone nearly always comes in and mops up the mob before a Propel is launched, for example. Perhaps roll back the controll numbers to the old times/recharge/etc. and add a Domination-type clicky that gives Containment double damage when used, but nerfs your control?
Well, all of them have at least some AoE damage, I think, and certainly all have access to it in their Epic sets. Since +Recharge is so easy to come by they don't need many attacks, just a couple they can repeat.
To some extent though, that's beside the point - it's more a general game balance issue. I have no problem with Containment providing enough of a damage boost to ease soloing. My question is this: Why should Controllers get double the benefit of every slotted damage enhancement and every damage buff compared to all other ATs?
That's what containment allows at the moment, and it seems rather clearly unbalanced to me.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
I don't see why - my APP Blast on my Fire/Rad/Primal isn't exactly stellar and it certainly isn't AoE.
It's only a limited number of power combinations that really ramp up the damage, especially after the change to APP Blasts for Controllers.
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If you where going to replace containment (the controller inherent) what would you replace it with?
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Since the nerfherding has expanded to controllers as whole now *groan*...
...no I don't actually like containment conceptually in the current form, but it *did* solve the 'normal mortals can't solo and remain sane with a non-Illusion controller before level 32' problem, despite the massive nerfs to control powers that accompanied it.
So:
Containment v2: +Hold, +Stun, +Immob, +Confuse, +Sleep Duration Buff, and -Recharge Buff to your Hold, Stun, Immob, Confuse and Sleep powers based on the number of enemies you already have Held, Stunned, Immobolized, Confused or Slept.
And to keep controllers soloable by people who like to remain sane:
For non-Mind controllers move all the Tier 9 pets (level 32) to Tier 3 (level 2) with appropriate scaling on their powers below level 32. All the other powers at or above the current Tier 3 get bumped up one tier.
For Mind move Confuse from Tier 4 (level 6) to Tier 3 (level 2) and as necessary change it and the other confuse powers in Mind so that they give a defense and damage buff to the confused mobs in order to keep their damage using confused mobs comparable to the Controllers with a pet.
I thought Containment was deactivated for the Epic pools, for the precise reason that Controllers were doing too much damage with them?
And do Defiance (2.whatever) and Critical's only work on base damage? I was under the impression they stack buffs/enhancements too, but I admit I don't know whether that's true.
As for the AoE attacks: they draw a lot of agro, and certainly for the Grav set, only provide very small ticks over time. Added to which, the Immob, as I said before, draws the agro (and uses more Endurance the more targets it hits) and doesn't stop their ranged attacks, and the AoE Holds do little more than buy a few seconds before they all recover and come looking for your blood.
APP damage was halved (iirc) so with the change: with containment they have the same values as they used to have before containment was added.
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And do Defiance (2.whatever) and Critical's only work on base damage? I was under the impression they stack buffs/enhancements too, but I admit I don't know whether that's true.
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Defiance (both versions) is a damage buff. It increases the damage a blaster does considerably but also contributes towards the damage cap.
Scrapper criticals do indeed add a chunk of base damage - but only on a relatively small proportion of attacks (5-10% depending on target rank). The rather large difference is that in principle there's no reason why any of a Controller's attacks after an opening control should not be boosted by containment.
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As for the AoE attacks: they draw a lot of agro, and certainly for the Grav set, only provide very small ticks over time. Added to which, the Immob, as I said before, draws the agro (and uses more Endurance the more targets it hits) and doesn't stop their ranged attacks, and the AoE Holds do little more than buy a few seconds before they all recover and come looking for your blood.
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I agree with a lot of this in principle, the problem is that in the high end game (where this imbalance really starts to bite) it's all too easy to offset recharge and End issues, and aggro means almost nothing to an AT that can Mez at will.
And if you think about it for a moment - if you had a power that simply caused all your attacks to do double damage with no other side effects, you'd use it without thinking twice. The AoE Immob. you're talking about does that on top of providing Immobilization... some easily mitigatable aggro is a small price to pay.
Once again - I've no problem with Containment providing enough extar damage to ease soloing. Making the extra damage unbuffable would still achieve that (in the low level game, with relatively few damabe buffs around, that's mostly how it works already). But I'd ask again - do you really think that making all effects of damage slotting and buffing for Controllers twice as powerful as those for any other AT is really justified?
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
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Where the hell is this complete safety part come from. My farmer dies regually but it doesnt bother me either. The safety of a farming toon comes from the fact that the toon is 50 and debt is irelavant.
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You sometimes get defeated?
It's true, fire/kin sucks. Ill/TA FTW.
I really should do something about this signature.