Good thread!
Contaiment v2.0 sounds a good idea to me.
As an easy fix I would say it gives +12.5% accuracy and a +100% damage bonus on single target attacks, and +7.5% accuracy and +75% damage on AoE attacks
(Slight emphasis on ST attacks because containment was, as I see it, introduced to allow Controllers to solo effectively more than be "AoE damage kings").
Other thoughts I had:
Containment: any attack on a "contained" foe does an additional 50% damage (of base, and not buffable) of untyped damage.
This would particularly benefit Earth controllers who have a devil of a time soloing.
Just off top of my head.
Personally, Im wonder if abandoning containment alltogether would be an idea. Buff base Immob/Hold damage and increase "Hold Crit" chance which is a far better conceptual inherent for controllers.
Please can you say why you want suggestions for a change to containment which is one of the best inherents in the game.
Is it because you dont think controllers should be able to do damage? Do you think containment should increase some other stat as opposed to damage?
I think it will be hard to change containment to anything other than what we have without really making a difference to some controllers, as it is it is difficult for my ill/emp to do much damage even as it is with its current numbers. This most likely down to the fact that an ill doesnt have many holds at all or effects that bring about containment. So any changes to numbers will hurt that particular flavour of troller.
You want my opinion?
The Controller was never concieved as a damage dealer. Nor was it concieved as beeing easy to solo (for evidence, see the first edition of the full game manual).
Compared to doninators, controllers do more damage but dominators can manage higher mag holds. This seems the wrong way around to me.
My feeling is that the controller inherent should buff thier primary function (locking down mobs), not buff something that wasn't meant to even be a secondary function.
I really should do something about this signature.
But it was the reason that they got the buff so they could solo. Remove containment and you remove the ability to solo for half the AT. The Devs did this so everything could solo.
No, they did if for PvP, and because they didn't want perma-lockdown of full team spawns.
It says in the manual "will find soloing difficult". So long as players are forewarned I don't see a problem with that.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
No, they did if for PvP, and because they didn't want perma-lockdown of full team spawns.
It says in the manual "will find soloing difficult". So long as players are forewarned I don't see a problem with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
You cant base any of the AT we have on the manual any more, there have been so many changes since that manual came out its not worth the paper its written on.
Any change to containment would be a tricky one for the devs seeing as how they did bring it in to let trollers solo better and yes also for pvp but they would still have a hell of a time changing it to please everyone now.
Stated many times before on this board Praf that the manual means didly squat any more.
Containment was introduced so Controller could solo.
Soloed controllers before containment...
I agree that the manual doesn't mean much now. However it does show that at the time the devs thought it was fine that some ATs could solo better than others, and the development team hasn't changed all that much in the intervening years.
I really should do something about this signature.
I can understand the concern over some controllers being able to tear down mobs but I do think Containment should provide Controllers with some capacity to solo.
Would it be bad if Containment only did full (buffed/enhanced) damage for single target powers and base damage for AoEs/Pets?
I don't think Controllers should get an inherent that buffs the Mag of their effects(holds etc), in my opinion that would make it too easy to lockdown Bosses EBs AVs etc.
The reason why Dominators don't have something like containment is likely because of all their direct damage secondaries. It would be like the epics were before the nerf last year. They'd out damage every other Villain AT.
Why use something in your argument that you know to be wrong. Did you think you would get away with it.
And it was decided to make it easier for all toons to solo regardless of what AT they were, and IMO the only useless inherents in the game are defenders and Epics as you need to be on a team to utilise the effects. An inherent should benifit you solo and in a team.
[ QUOTE ]
for evidence, see the first edition of the full game manual).
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh yea i remember that, it was out of date before it was printed, full of mistakes and bad descriptions.
Nice reference point.
I seem to be getting the impression from your previous post's on this post and on the Fire/Kin post that you have a problem with controllers and there ability to solo or farm, and now this post about changing Containment! To stop this or prevent the ability altogether..
I notice from your signature you have a Lvl50 troller, so you have experience of playing a controller at all lvls, what I don't understand is this;
Because you don't like something or think it is wrong, you want to have it changed! Ok everyone is entitled to there opinions...But this is were I get upset, your calling for a change that will spoil things for people who have no problems with the present state of the troller or how they play the game..Solo/Team
So please if you don't like it as is don't play it and leave the rest of us alone to enjoy something WE also pay for each month.
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to be getting the impression from your previous post's on this post and on the Fire/Kin post that you have a problem with controllers and there ability to solo or farm, and now this post about changing Containment! To stop this or prevent the ability altogether..
I notice from your signature you have a Lvl50 troller, so you have experience of playing a controller at all lvls, what I don't understand is this;
Because you don't like something or think it is wrong, you want to have it changed! Ok everyone is entitled to there opinions...But this is were I get upset, your calling for a change that will spoil things for people who have no problems with the present state of the troller or how they play the game..Solo/Team
So please if you don't like it as is don't play it and leave the rest of us alone to enjoy something WE also pay for each month.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said!!!! Goes and gets a bit of hose pipe so I can ................. 
[ QUOTE ]
Why use something in your argument that you know to be wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because I wasn't "arguing". You asked for my opinion, and I gave it, along with my reasons. I'm not trying to pursuade you to agree with it. If you think containment is perfect the way it is all you have to do is say so.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
Please can you say why you want suggestions for a change to containment which is one of the best inherents in the game.
Is it because you dont think controllers should be able to do damage? Do you think containment should increase some other stat as opposed to damage?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, personally I have no problem at all with controllers being able to do damage. I do have a problem with them being able to do more damage than most scrappers and some blasters and all from a position of almost complete safety.
I understand the reason for its introduction in the first place was to provide some extra damage for Controllers to make soloing them at low level more bearable. That's fair enough. I agree with PRAF that conceptually boosting holding power would be better, but soloability is pretty important in this game so a compromise is reasonable.
The problem with the way containment currently works is that it introduces a force multiplier in that a controller not only does double damage, but receives double effect from buffs as well - this is particularly obvious if the Controller in question can apply those buffs themselves, which most combinations (having buff/debuff as their secondary) can in one form or another, but it's still broken if that's not the case. What, really, is the justification for a Controller receiving twice the effect from a damage buff that a Blaster, Scrapper or indeed any other AT does?
Ideally, I'd rather see it as a 100% +Damage buff. With no other buffs in place (and typical slotting for control powers) this would have exactly the same effect as the current containment but be far less open to abuse, since it would contribute to the damage cap rather than ignoring it. There are technical problems with doing that, though, since the chack for the held/stunned/immob/sleep state of a target is made only after an attack has hit - too late to apply a buff to that attack!
Adding base damage but making it unbuffable would be the next best thing, but not untyped - that breaks all sorts of things. I would think that 100% base for single target powers and 33% base for AoEs would be a reasonable starting point (since AoEs are balanced around hitting three targets). It still feels a little wrong since it will still effectively be damage that's added over and above the damage cap, but at least it's by addition not multiplication, so the potential for abuse is very much less.
TBH, I'd have preferred either for a damage boost for ST powers and the controllers' critical holds being defined as their inherent, with the probability of it occurring being increased if necessary (but it's probably too late to roll back to something like that now) or for the inherents to be swapped between Controllers and Dominators - doing extra damage to the helpless feels far more villainous than heroic to me. Even then, of course, the force multiplier problem would need to be dealt with, but it wouldn't be quite as severe in an AT that can't buff itself.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to be getting the impression from your previous post's on this post and on the Fire/Kin post that you have a problem with controllers and there ability to solo or farm, and now this post about changing Containment! To stop this or prevent the ability altogether..
[/ QUOTE ]
OFFS! Can you not say anything here without people thinking you are bashing them!
My post has nothing to do with farming, or any specific controller powerset combination. Nor did it say "Nerf containment". It was simply because in the other thread changing containment was suggested.
Apropiate responses are:
1) I think containment should be changed to do X.
or
2) I don't think anything could improve on how containent works now.
I really should do something about this signature.
I would say 2). Rip off the hability to solo with an AT on a semi deserted game and you will see they will become quite rare
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to be getting the impression from your previous post's on this post and on the Fire/Kin post that you have a problem with controllers and there ability to solo or farm, and now this post about changing Containment! To stop this or prevent the ability altogether..
I notice from your signature you have a Lvl50 troller, so you have experience of playing a controller at all lvls, what I don't understand is this;
Because you don't like something or think it is wrong, you want to have it changed! Ok everyone is entitled to there opinions...But this is were I get upset, your calling for a change that will spoil things for people who have no problems with the present state of the troller or how they play the game..Solo/Team
So please if you don't like it as is don't play it and leave the rest of us alone to enjoy something WE also pay for each month.
[/ QUOTE ]
I remember everyone being happy with their unkillable /regen scrappers, but the devs still cut down the regen available to the set across the board and, just as people were getting used to that, took away Instant Healing as a toggle and made it a clicky on a long recharge.
Just because the players are happy with something doesn't mean the devs aren't going to change it. Similarly just because players are unhappy with something doesn't mean the devs will change it.
As far as I'm aware, these recent threads have been about "IF the devs change ..., how would you suggest they change it?" If they don't change these things it's a non-issue, but if they do then wouldn't you rather see a change that came about through a reasoned debate rather than the devs just applying a change they saw fit and saying "suck it up"? (I'm certainly not saying the devs don't listen to the players - recent events have shown they do - but it's not unheard of for them to implement an unpopular change)
Containment was introduced to help controllers solo if they choose to - as such I can see the merit in keeping the full damage bonus for single target controls/attacks but giving a smaller bonus for powers that affect multiple targets. There may even be some room for some compensation for this "nerf".
@Hakeswell
Union Ilservian, Evinlea
Defiant Expeditor, Hakeswell
Arc: 70119 Hellion Initiation
They would solo even more effectively if you made containment only work on single target attacks, but increased all mezz durations by 20%, for example.
I really should do something about this signature.
This would be a reasonably elegant solution. However, I am concerned it slectively "nerfs" AoE Sets (ummm.. Fire springs to mind) and buffs ST Sets (like Illusion particularly).
HOw about doubling ST effects and +50% to AoE effects?
[ QUOTE ]
OFFS! Can you not say anything here without people thinking you are bashing them!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry did I upset you? 
Never mind for the record I like trollers as they are...That ok?
Illusion doesn't do all that well out of containment, since it only affects a small part of Spectral wounds damage, and Flash is rubbish.
I like my contoller to. I just find it odd that she outdamages blasters.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
Illusion doesn't do all that well out of containment, since it only affects a small part of Spectral wounds damage, and Flash is rubbish.
I like my contoller to. I just find it odd that she outdamages blasters.
[/ QUOTE ]
If your happy then why start a thread asking to change it?
And with the way Defiance now work I doubt if a roller could out damage a blaster - just an opinion.
Heres an idea - why don't we ask the Powers that Be to leave ALL the current power sets alone and spend the time developing new power sets and new in game content.
Not good blasters... on the other hand, scrappers and even tankers outdmg bad blasters too
Given that Defiance just got completely changed...
If you where going to replace containment (the controller inherent) what would you replace it with?
(Yes, this is a spin off thread, from which all mention of specific powerset combanations is banned)
I really should do something about this signature.