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They all know the solution but they also know the devs won't implement those solutions. So they constantly look for compromises. At the moment the -5% unyeilding is flavour of the month.
[/ QUOTE ]Just asking to remove that isn't going to work on the devs though. You need to show that invul underperforms compared to other tanker primaries, and that removing the -5% def would bring it in line with the others.
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That's a job for the guys over in the USA. They seem to be doing a pretty good job. Problem is, they state their case very eloquently, and have done for years, but the devs don`t listen.
All I've tried to do is drum up support for the cause. Which I clearly haven't succeeded in doing.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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That's a job for the guys over in the USA. They seem to be doing a pretty good job. Problem is, they state their case very eloquently, and have done for years, but the devs don`t listen.
[/ QUOTE ]The devs listened on ice tanks, and they were changed. If invul won't be, that means invul isn't underperforming statistically.
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I don't see that one changing personally. Or if they do they would more than likely balance it up by reducing Invincibilities defence by 5%.
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Originally, unyeilding meant you were rooted to the spot.
When the devs changed that, in order to maintain the balance of the power they, rightly or wrongly added the 5% debuff. That was back when unstoppable was perma and when Invul tankers were far more powerful than they are now.
So, now that the circumstances upon which the 5% was introduced have changed so dramatically, why do you feel they would have to create a zero operation by swapping one 5% with another?
The point is is that the 5% debuff is outdated and unnecessary and, in view of our current weaker state a handicap rather than a balancing factor.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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I don't see that one changing personally. Or if they do they would more than likely balance it up by reducing Invincibilities defence by 5%.
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Originally, unyeilding meant you were rooted to the spot.
When the devs changed that, in order to maintain the balance of the power they, rightly or wrongly added the 5% debuff. That was back when unstoppable was perma and when Invul tankers were far more powerful than they are now.
So, now that the circumstances upon which the 5% was introduced have changed so dramatically, why do you feel they would have to create a zero operation by swapping one 5% with another?
The point is is that the 5% debuff is outdated and unnecessary and, in view of our current weaker state a handicap rather than a balancing factor.
[/ QUOTE ]When your defensive capabilities were reduced in I5, that debuff was in place, and taken into account when calculating the new, more balanced values. Therefore, removal of that debuff would mean reduction in other defenses, unless invul is underperforming other primaries (Which, from what I've seen, isn't the case).
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That's a job for the guys over in the USA. They seem to be doing a pretty good job. Problem is, they state their case very eloquently, and have done for years, but the devs don`t listen.
[/ QUOTE ]The devs listened on ice tanks, and they were changed. If invul won't be, that means invul isn't underperforming statistically.
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That is true. But Ice was by far the worst performing Tank right out of the gate.
It really sucked.
Even the devs realised that with the Global nerfs and I5, the set would be all but unplayable.
So I don't think the two things are quite the same.
Even now I`m not suggesting Invuls needs are even close to Ices problems, before the devs finally fixed them.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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The devs listened on ice tanks, and they were changed. If invul won't be, that means invul isn't underperforming statistically.
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It was the changes in the Defense mechanics back in i7 that really made the difference there.
And that benefited the Inv tank as well, not quite as much though.
It seems that the discussion of the contemporary tank compared to the pre I5 tank is neverending. 
IMO I'm glad that the "I can tank pretty much anything beneath the sun" days are over.
I remember how fast I lvl'ed my Inv./Fire tank as soon as I reached the midd 20s. Off to a trial zone and herd up huge amounts of foes. With just a little skill one could herd all the followers into one bunch so it seemed they were almost one mob, making it possibile to dmg all with single target attacks.
Teaming was purely out of the social aspect and increasing the number of mobs on the mission map.
I could find the "Juggernaut effect" fun at times, but tired quickly of it. Playing my tank back then was like playing God mode.
Besides some of the issues that can be discussed concerning percentages in regard to defence and res to elements and/or energies, in overall I think the Inv. is well balanced now.
If tanks were to get back their old ability to round up around half a city map, the only way to justify the ability would be to remove any dencent AoE dmg dealing powers to prevent old overkill days,still making dmg dealers wanted, Honestly I don't wanna see my tank get his dmg so nerfed on dmg that it'll take me ages to take down a mob just so I can see my health bar stay above 4/5 no matter what I do.
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[I remember how fast I lvl'ed my Inv./Fire tank as soon as I reached the midd 20s.
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Fire, especially fire/fire WAS overpowered. It, like Ice on the weaker side of the fence, was the exception rather than the rule.
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Off to a trial zone and herd up huge amounts of foes. With just a little skill one could herd all the followers into one bunch so it seemed they were almost one mob, making it possibile to dmg all with single target attacks.
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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.
Now that taunt has been cut back, you can't re-enact those scenarios. And I think that's good too. But that's regardless of how powerful invulnerable is these days.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]Taunt is not needed for herding, and never was. Aggro auras are there for a reason.
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[I remember how fast I lvl'ed my Inv./Fire tank as soon as I reached the midd 20s.
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Fire, especially fire/fire WAS overpowered. It, like Ice on the weaker side of the fence, was the exception rather than the rule.
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Off to a trial zone and herd up huge amounts of foes. With just a little skill one could herd all the followers into one bunch so it seemed they were almost one mob, making it possibile to dmg all with single target attacks.
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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.
Now that taunt has been cut back, you can't re-enact those scenarios. And I think that's good too. But that's regardless of how powerful invulnerable is these days.
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Well, the fire/fire tank IMO wasn't anymore owerpowered than the Inv./fire Tank in regard to I4, pre that we can talk about. 
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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.
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Taunt is not needed for herding, and never was. Aggro auras are there for a reason.
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This is one of those unnecessary replies that I was referring to.
You, clearly, have not herded with the big boys.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Well, the fire/fire tank IMO wasn't anymore owerpowered than the Inv./fire Tank in regard to I4, pre that we can talk about.
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This is hairsplitting really. Fire/fire was deemed to be the most powerful Tank set because of the fire primaries AoEs. but, quite frankly, I don't care either way.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Well, the fire/fire tank IMO wasn't anymore owerpowered than the Inv./fire Tank in regard to I4, pre that we can talk about.
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This is hairsplitting really. Fire/fire was deemed to be the most powerful Tank set because of the fire primaries AoEs. but, quite frankly, I don't care either way.
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Ofc you care. If you didn't you wouldn't reply.
If you've tried playing an Inv./fire with 2 potent AoE powers, 1 Cone attack and perma Hasten + herding foes into the bunch I wrote about before and using Greater Fire Sword, the kill rate and the health bar pretty much speak their own language.
Please note that I wrote I4!
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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]Taunt is not needed for herding, and never was. Aggro auras are there for a reason.
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Taunt can speed up the gathering process, bring very high level enemies straight into melee where one 18+ invuln has greater defense, removing extra fight duration to self, removing alphas whilst herding. Whether it is needed in a particular fight is subjective to whether your dead or not 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the effect set bonuses can have on tanks nowadays
If you feel you have a weakness then that can be addressed through set bonuses (psi res or defence) or your strengths can be improved upon (some of the + positional def set bonuses stacked can add up quite quickly)
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the effect set bonuses can have on tanks nowadays
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I did, though it was several pages back now...
"Post-I9 with IOs, my INV/SS tanker actually feels quite powerful. Unstoppable up nearly half the time, at the tanker HP cap constantly (Dull Pain recharge is 112 secs with Hasten, and Hasten has less than 19 secs downtime), 90% S/L resists and 16-20% "other" resists (except Psi), with Defence ranging from 28% to 49.5% depending on how many foes are inside Invincibility Range. Not forgetting the added survivability when Footstomp is up every 7 seconds. And 270% regen as an afterthought... "
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If you feel you have a weakness then that can be addressed through set bonuses (psi res or defence) or your strengths can be improved upon (some of the + positional def set bonuses stacked can add up quite quickly)
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The paltry numbers on the Psionic resistance and defence set bonuses leave me feeling a bit unimpressed. Only Stone has anything that can stack with them (Minerals) and when slotted + combined with the "3% Def to all" CHEAP unique resistance IO, that defence practically hits the 45% 'soft cap' already without set bonuses.
Positional defence IO bonuses are virtually useless to tankers, since the Ice and INV primaries work off typed, not positional defence. The only thing they'd normally affect are psionic attacks, since there is no defence to toxic and other attacks will be deflected by the AT's higher typed defence.
I'd much rather increase a tanker's recharge enough to get perma Dull Pain/Earths Embrace/Hoarfrost... or in the case of Fire/, to get Healing Flames up so often that regen scrappers start getting envious... 
I personally won't be joining in any call for adjustments to Invul tankers - IMO Invincibility, Dull Pain, excellent S/L resists and judicious use of Unstoppable combined with a well-rounded build make for a very survivable tanker and I'm perfectly happy with the survivability level my tanker's at. Best of luck getting improvements for yourself though.
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
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In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
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Positional defence IO bonuses are virtually useless to tankers, since the Ice and INV primaries work off typed, not positional defence. The only thing they'd normally affect are psionic attacks, since there is no defence to toxic and other attacks will be deflected by the AT's higher typed defence.
[/ QUOTE ]There's no TYPED toxic defense, but toxic attacks with a positional component are blocked by positional defense. Oh, and stone primary is typed defense as well
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to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....
edit: no offense
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For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.
But comments like this make me decide to drop this thread.
I'll leave the good fight to my American friends who are far more elequent than I am.
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i did say i wasnt trying to offend you, and also i didnt state that you were a bad tank, i said that you sounded like one because of the complaining, but yeah that probably didnt help. sorry anyway.
I take the tohit formula to be like this now:
[(Total Tohit - Total Def) =>5 or =<95] * Total Accuracy =>5 or =<95 = Hit chance
So if i had 55% tohit and the player had 101.5 def and i had 2 acc SOs in an attack my chance of hitting with that attack look to be:
[(55% - 101.5%) =>5 or =<95] * 166.66% =>5 or =<95 = Hit chance.
5% * 166.66% =>5 or =<95 = Hit chance
5% * 166.66% =>5 or =<95 = 8.3%
When you run into 'even' level Rikti and herd up you probably get the desired result to what Tankers are supposed to be feel like. When you add levels and rank, they become more accurate and more damaging and so you dont feel like a Tanker should feel like and thats when support and playing to get the most out of your build comes in. The Devs base the game around one thing and then players play it around another and then go "this aint right".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....
edit: no offense
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For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.
But comments like this make me decide to drop this thread.
I'll leave the good fight to my American friends who are far more elequent than I am.
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i did say i wasnt trying to offend you, and also i didnt state that you were a bad tank, i said that you sounded like one because of the complaining, but yeah that probably didnt help. sorry anyway.
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NP.
And I have no idea if I`m one of the best Tankers or not. I was just being facecious.
I`m pretty damn good though.
I appreciate the apology.
Thank you.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
I will happily agree that invul and fire are the least popular of the tank primaries at the moment. Are they necescarily underpowered? no. personally i'd like to see all tanks be boosted slightly, find a middle ground between pre-ED and current tanks. The changes i'd make, were I allowed to, are:
double the herd cap
increase the number of enemies that PBAoEs hit to 15
Temperature protection gets some slow resistance and small kb protection (say -3/4)
Burn gets slow added. it should be consistent with hotfeet/rain of fire/ice storm.. after all, that was their reason for adding repel in the first place
Invul passives give 50% more bonus.
stone armours have reduced endurance cost. ex Granite armour, which has increased endurance cost.
enemy accuracy buffs are scaled down - DE crystals, nem's vengenace etc..
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double the herd cap
[/ QUOTE ]This.
Only 29 posts like that so far today Max!
its 5:30pm already!
You are slacking!
*cracks whip*
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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They all know the solution but they also know the devs won't implement those solutions. So they constantly look for compromises. At the moment the -5% unyeilding is flavour of the month.
[/ QUOTE ]Just asking to remove that isn't going to work on the devs though. You need to show that invul underperforms compared to other tanker primaries, and that removing the -5% def would bring it in line with the others.