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Ofc you care. If you didn't you wouldn't reply. 
If you've tried playing an Inv./fire with 2 potent AoE powers, 1 Cone attack and perma Hasten + herding foes into the bunch I wrote about before and using Greater Fire Sword, the kill rate and the health bar pretty much speak their own language.
Please note that I wrote I4!
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Fire primary used to enable you to kill minions just with aoe. And invuls can't. Add that to fire secondary and you have THE most powerful Tank of the lot.
Course it's been nerfed but back prior to I4...
[/ QUOTE ]Inv/Fire might take twice as long as fire/fire to kill the mobs, but when you have 100+ foes herded together, that's still far to high XP rate.
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Inv/Fire might take twice as long as fire/fire to kill the mobs, but when you have 100+ foes herded together, that's still far to high XP rate.
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Not denying it. that's why taunt had to be weakened. But the point is, if Fire/Fire can do the same as Invul/ Fire only faster then it clearly is more powerful. No?
Actually that should read, "was." This point harks back to the earlier posts talking about pre I5/ED.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Herd cap needs to be addressed.
Inv doesn't. I'm not a very good tanker, but I found I could survive quite well and hold enough aggro to keep the team alive fighting 52-53 rikti on an 8-man team. I needed some support, but not the full-time attention of an empath.
I've always figured that Inv prospers by being able to drop the s/l damage virtually to nothing, allowing the tanker to cope with the rest of the damage through tactical inspiration use, DP, Unstoppable, running away, aid self, yelling "HEEL MEH PLZ", or whatever other methods come to mind. Tanking isn't restricted to standing there taunting and hoping to hell that they don't overcome what HP regaining you can muster - you use scenery, positioning, and movement to keep yourself standing.
There's very few enemies in the game that do no s/l damage. On top of that, we've very respectable defence.
I wouldn't expect to go and herd a roomful of +3 rikti without some support. But I can tank them well enough for the team.
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
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Inv/Fire might take twice as long as fire/fire to kill the mobs, but when you have 100+ foes herded together, that's still far to high XP rate.
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Not denying it. that's why taunt had to be weakened.
[/ QUOTE ]Weakening taunt had nothing to do with it. I could still do it just fine with my tank if it wasn't for the aggro cap. And that tank doesn't even HAVE taunt. Obviously killing would take much longer with the AoE cap on attacks, but the herding itself is only countered by aggro cap, not taunt nerf.
Ok, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but imho invul is fine, even tanked the STF with it. The reason you might be doing bad is that you don't get the point of Dull Pain. Just hit it before you enter a mob and it doesn't really matter what damage type they throw at your massive amount of hp. You can't rely on your shields alone, you need damage mitigation. I use invoke panic to reduce the minions to eh nothing and footstomp to keep the whole spawn in the air. Invul leads to a more active role of tanking imho because the aura is less effective and unstoppable has a nasty drop (which I love), but wouldn't want it any other way
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Ok, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but imho invul is fine, even tanked the STF with it. The reason you might be doing bad is that you don't get the point of Dull Pain. Just hit it before you enter a mob and it doesn't really matter what damage type they throw at your massive amount of hp. You can't rely on your shields alone, you need damage mitigation. I use invoke panic to reduce the minions to eh nothing and footstomp to keep the whole spawn in the air. Invul leads to a more active role of tanking imho because the aura is less effective and unstoppable has a nasty drop (which I love), but wouldn't want it any other way
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personally, i'd never use dull pain before a mob.. it does heal +max hp, so you're wasting one of the components if u use it on full HP.
also invincibility is second only to chilling embrace in terms of aggro management, it just doesnt have a nice effect to show you when its working, so people often under-rate it
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Ok, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but imho invul is fine, even tanked the STF with it. The reason you might be doing bad is that you don't get the point of Dull Pain.
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Sigh. As you're a fellow Power I forgive you.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Not denying it. that's why taunt had to be weakened.
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Weakening taunt had nothing to do with it. I could still do it just fine with my tank if it wasn't for the aggro cap. And that tank doesn't even HAVE taunt. Obviously killing would take much longer with the AoE cap on attacks, but the herding itself is only countered by aggro cap, not taunt nerf.
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This is why I commented you can't have ever herded with the big boys, Max. You cannot possibly believe that and know what true herding was.
Why don't you try it with the freakshow. After all, they're S/l in the main. Get someone to buff you if you need to. See how many you can pull.
You have no idea.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Why don't you try it with the freakshow. After all, they're S/l in the main. Get someone to buff you if you need to. See how many you can pull.
[/ QUOTE ]17, since that's the aggro cap. I could, depending on group size and locations, have maybe 50 or so "active" (ie. they'd aggro on me if it wasn't for the cap). Of course, if it wasn't for the aggro cap, I could move the herd around and add mobs to it. Taking groups with only minions and lieuts, I figure my ice tank could survive somewhere between 50 and 100 freaks without external support for long enough herd them into a neat group (And dispose of them, if it wasn't for the AoE caps. And he's not even a /fire tank).
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Not denying it. that's why taunt had to be weakened.
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Weakening taunt had nothing to do with it. I could still do it just fine with my tank if it wasn't for the aggro cap. And that tank doesn't even HAVE taunt. Obviously killing would take much longer with the AoE cap on attacks, but the herding itself is only countered by aggro cap, not taunt nerf.
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This is why I commented you can't have ever herded with the big boys, Max. You cannot possibly believe that and know what true herding was.
Why don't you try it with the freakshow. After all, they're S/l in the main. Get someone to buff you if you need to. See how many you can pull.
You have no idea.
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
i think the aggro cap reduction is similar to a nerf to taunt but its a aggro cap reduction to anyone. Anyone can round up 17 and no more, a blaster can hit a group of 16 and get them on his butt, but when he hits another group of 16 a moment after he may just have 1 more than 16 on his case. After dropping some of the first 17 comes the Conga line of stupidity whereby those you hit, wake up to of been hit and take an interest in you.
The way things work with the aggro cap doesnt sound realistic, the idea of some getting hit or effected but not taking a interest. A virtual sense of having attention could be there whereby all will follow tanker but the moment the team are involved the groups that are above 17 cap could pick on anyone, much more realistic imo.
As it stands you can run between 4 groups of 10, pull 17 by running out with them or have 1 person follow you there into the middle and have 34 following you out.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Fire tanks have heavier end use and have less defense vs psionics as they have no +HP power
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Did you just write what I think you wrote..
No +HP Power..
Are you yanking my chain - what about healing flames!
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Since when does healing flames add to max HP?
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Oh right I thought you meant as in a normal heal O=]
My Badddd
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i think the aggro cap reduction is similar to a nerf to taunt but its a aggro cap reduction to anyone. Anyone can round up 17 and no more, a blaster can hit a group of 16 and get them on his butt, but when he hits another group of 16 a moment after he may just have 1 more than 16 on his case. After dropping some of the first 17 comes the Conga line of stupidity whereby those you hit, wake up to of been hit and take an interest in you.
[/ QUOTE ]That's correct, it was a change to the mob AI, not the tanker AT.
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
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I, for one, am fascinated to know.
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.
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Taunt was reduced from being a "hit as many as you like" power to a 5 mob cap. That did pretty much bugger all to tankers' ability to herd.
What *did* affect herding was the introduction of the 17-mob aggro cap, which operates on a FIFO principle.
I'm curious as to what you think "taunt" actually means, because if you're referring to Taunt the power then I really have no idea what you're talking about.
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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.
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Taunt was reduced from being a "hit as many as you like" power to a 5 mob cap. That did pretty much bugger all to tankers' ability to herd.
What *did* affect herding was the introduction of the 17-mob aggro cap, which operates on a FIFO principle.
I'm curious as to what you think "taunt" actually means, because if you're referring to Taunt the power then I really have no idea what you're talking about.
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Riigghhht
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Riigghhht
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Now I can't tell if you're trolling or just being a [censored] about this. It's not difficult to be civil and actually explain what you're talking about instead of mocking everyone who posts something that doesn't fit with your nebulous concept of "Taunt".
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, I obviously know nothing about the game mechanics, unlikje you, who're a never-mistaking fountain of Co(H/V) knowledge. (As shown by your earlier posts in this thread)
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Riigghhht
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Now I can't tell if you're trolling or just being a [censored] about this. It's not difficult to be civil and actually explain what you're talking about instead of mocking everyone who posts something that doesn't fit with your nebulous concept of "Taunt".
[/ QUOTE ]But surely that wouldn't be even half as fun 
*Footstomps thread*
Please avoid "flaming", "trolling", "harassing", "profanity", "abusive (unknown but good enough to be censored) language" or abbreviations, personal attacks or personal slurs, racial, religious, ethnic, or sexual slurs.
Often times arguments cant be won, so if you have a contrasting opinion, please state it simply and clearly. If necessary, agree to disagree with others who may have differing opinions. Discussions can get more and more hostile the longer they get, please be impersonal and keep things constructive.
*Repair cracks in thread and then waits for a telling off for impersonating any NCInteractive or NCsoft employee*
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, I obviously know nothing about the game mechanics, unlikje you, who're a never-mistaking fountain of Co(H/V) knowledge. (As shown by your earlier posts in this thread)
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Who gives a monkeys about game mechanics? I don't need to understand how electricity works in order to use it.
And i don't need to know how game mechanics work in order to see their effect.
But I digress.
To those who don't really understand the difference between todays herding/ taunting and pre I4:
Back then a single taunt would pull almost everything in site. So, for instance, take an AV map and an 8 man team. You see maybe 20 or 30 villians then a bit further another 20 or 30 and so on.
The Tank would jump in the middle of the first mob, one taunt, then run to the second and taunt and then the third... 2 minutes later he would have hundreds of baddies attacking him. The team would then pick them off.
Now how does that differ from todays taunt?
Well, for one thing taunt can only attract 5 at a time rather than 30-40 whatever.
So, you got to get your little avator to guantlet everything separatly and rely on your inherent taunts to do the rest.
So, you pull a group. Problem is, maintaining the taunt. Cause you can only taunt 5 at a time and inherent aggro has limited range and wears off if not coonstantly on the villian.
So even if there wasn't an aggro limit, you couldn't maintain your grip on them.
Even if you could get 100, it`s so wide an area, your aggro wont extend to the outer edges.
And, as soon as your team mates attack, because you can't continuously refresh the taunt to cover everyone, the villians will turn on them. Bad mojo.
Course this has already taken 10 or 15 minutes and you haven`t even begun to cover the map yet.
100 villians in a herd? I doubt it. But even if it's so, that number is paltry.
Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.
Like I said, unless you play with the big boys you don't really know what herding truly was.
I won't bother with this thread again. But you two feel free to talk amongst yourselves.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?
You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works
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But, after ED, when we had been cut down so dramatically, what on earth does it do for anyone ?
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I really wish people would stop trying to use ED as a reason why one particular Power pool is underpowered.
ED affected every character equally (well almost - powers which only take one time of Enhancement like travel powers suffered slightly worse). If Inv Tankers were affected by ED, do you think its possible that every other AT in the game was also affected?
Also I think you will find with IOs you can now reach greater heights than you could before ED. You just have to slot sensibly.
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Ofc you care. If you didn't you wouldn't reply.
If you've tried playing an Inv./fire with 2 potent AoE powers, 1 Cone attack and perma Hasten + herding foes into the bunch I wrote about before and using Greater Fire Sword, the kill rate and the health bar pretty much speak their own language.
Please note that I wrote I4!
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Fire primary used to enable you to kill minions just with aoe. And invuls can't. Add that to fire secondary and you have THE most powerful Tank of the lot.
Course it's been nerfed but back prior to I4...
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...