*whisper* Invul FTL *winks at DSorrow*
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.
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ROFLMAO
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Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.
Like I said, unless you play with the big boys you don't really know what herding truly was.
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Sound reasoning, were it not for the fact that with the aggro cap in place, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Taunt can only affect 5 mobs at a time because you can't control aggro for more than 17 mobs.
Your argument doesn't work because none of the other factors that allowed you to herd an entire map are still in place. You can't hold the aggro of more than 17 mobs, your aura can't affect more than 10 mobs, your defences can't deal with vast numbers of mobs, your attacks can't hit more than 6/10/16 mobs and mobs don't stack on top of each other any more.
I'm also curious as to whom these "big boys" might be. I presume they're part of a cutting remark designed to make the rest of us feel small and inadequate?
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I don't need to understand how electricity works in order to use it.
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No, but doing so greatly reduces the risk of fatal electrocution.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
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I don't need to understand how electricity works in order to use it.
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No, but doing so greatly reduces the risk of fatal electrocution.
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Hahahaha 
Brilliant!
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?
You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works
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Dear dear friend,
Please don't tell me that if I hit something I'll aggro it. Or that invinc has an aggro AOE.
You'll shatter all my illusions.
You, on the other hand, have no idea what real herding actually was,why everyone wanted Tankers to do it then and why no-one can be bothered to try it now. I mean real herding.
And, as a clue, if you could aggro everything in sight and were as invulnerable as pre I5 levels, herding, without Taunt, could not be accomplished in anything like the levels that prompted this friendly little debate.
As for my Tanking skills, maybe you could teach me?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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ED affected every character equally (well almost - powers which only take one time of Enhancement like travel powers suffered slightly worse). If Inv Tankers were affected by ED, do you think its possible that every other AT in the game was also affected?
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It's not ED. It is the combination of ed and I5 that hit us far far harder thsn most ATS, directly and indirectly.
For a start, Invul Tankers never even thought to use the power pools of aid self or tough before that.
That meant we had to divert 3 powers from our previous game play just to play catch up. That's not to mention 75% drop in resists, etc etc etc.
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Also I think you will find with IOs you can now reach greater heights than you could before ED. You just have to slot sensibly.
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I don't think that's possible but when I get there, I'll tell you.
It's a bit of a shame to have a character for about 30 months build him to his max and still find yourself haveing to keep improving him all over again.
I don't mind doing that with newer chars but it irks I have to do it with my main.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.
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Sound reasoning, were it not for the fact that with the aggro cap in place, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Taunt can only affect 5 mobs at a time because you can't control aggro for more than 17 mobs.
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Spad the argument didn't relate to that. I was purely stating, as a response to an earlier post that, because of the taunt nerf, you cannot herd ala the old days.
As I said even if every factor of the game was the same except taunt, it couldn't be done because, firstly, to run around aggroing that sort of number and keeping them, even if the other team members were half a map a way, would be time consuming to the point of pointless.
Secondly, unless you were refreshing the map constantly with taunt (pre I5), you cannot MANAGE that sort of aggro.
You'de be forever chasing your tail because of aggro duration.
Thirdly,Your team would be wiped, because you couldn't hold the aggro as soon as the villians were attacked. And, bearing in mind, a true herder brings (brought) along hundereds, the team would be wiped in a minute. And without the old style taunt in place you could never re establish and maintain anything like that kind of aggro in time.
So, my original point that you can't herd pre I5 levels directly because of taunt, stands.
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Your argument doesn't work because none of the other factors that allowed you to herd an entire map are still in place. You can't hold the aggro of more than 17 mobs, your aura can't affect more than 10 mobs, your defences can't deal with vast numbers of mobs, your attacks can't hit more than 6/10/16 mobs and mobs don't stack on top of each other any more.
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As I said, my point was a side issue to all of that.
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I'm also curious as to whom these "big boys" might be. I presume they're part of a cutting remark designed to make the rest of us feel small and inadequate?
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I see why you say that and I apologise. That wasn't my inferrance. Well, maybe in a way it was, but it wasn't aimed at the thoughtful intelligent poster.
In this thread I have been accused of allsorts, simply because I feel invul Tankers are underpowered.
As I stated, the American boards agree with me. Whether the English boards do or not is fair enough. But when I get post after post stating I clearly can't Tank etc it winds me up.
Unfortunately, the kind of low level debate I'ver just encounted made me realise how much more mature and eloquent the USA forums are. That's a general comment, not aimed at you who, till now have questioned me in a thought out, less gung ho way.
People like Death Badger live on these boards and while that mentality is around it will always be dragged down to that kind of infantlie flamy sort of level.
I have more credentials in the game than the vast majority of players on this side of the pond and have been a major Tanker since day one of the USA launch.
Just because I want the current state of Tanking to be more in line with how it was, abiet a scaled doewn version, doesn't entitle people to question my ability to play the game or just have me running in circles with semantic points the way they do.
In Maxes case, had he ever herded ewith the real American herders, he would never have commented that he can Herd as well, without taunt.
And the way he went about it prompted me to launch a remark that maybe came out more condesending than it actually was.
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I don't need to understand how electricity works in order to use it.
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No, but doing so greatly reduces the risk of fatal electrocution.
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I can state now and forever more, the chances of my dying as a result of not knowing how electicity works are pretty slim. 
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Apparently on the US forums they actually provide details of why they think INV tanks (or whatever other powerset/AT) should be changed
You have provided absolutely no proof that INV tanks underperform in relation to any other tank/AT (in fact datamining from the devs show that it blasters who underperform in relation to other ATs hence the open discussion on Defiance)
ANY tank can solo on invincible without a problem unless they have a gimped build. To improve any aspect of any tank would make the game even easier for them. Every tank other than granite form can have trouble with 8 man spawns, but hey thats what team mates are there for. If there was no challenge the game would have died. If tanks could still do what they could prior to I5 then it would be City of Tanks. Nowadays the game is more diverse and team mates actually have a use.
You state why should you have to keep revisiting your main and changing him...well hey thats life..things change. I for one love the IO system it gives more options and longevity to level 50s. If the game remained static it would be pretty dull.
If you want a mature argument then you need to look at yourself. You have demeaned all European players and forum users with jibes about the big boys (how very mature, sounds like you are back in school). There are fantastic players on these servers. I for one know that Spad knows more about tanks than just about anyone and Max seems to be the font of all knowledge with regards to the game system. You have failed to provide any proof to back up any of your arguments and you have failed to convince most people following this thread that you are actually aware of the role of a tank. These are the facts. Yet you are the one who resorts to the level of personal attacks. If you want people to respect your opinion then give us a reason to.
(standing ovation)
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
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You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?
You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works
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A very constructive post...Not.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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ANY tank can solo on invincible without a problem unless they have a gimped build. To improve any aspect of any tank would make the game even easier for them. If there was no challenge the game would have died.
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There were about 15 or so months of game play before I5.
In that time WoW, which took quite a slice from CoH, came out. Since then we`ve had 5 issues of differing content not to mention an entirely new game that must have boosted the figures.
Yet, pro rata, the subs on this game are not as impressive as then.
I would think that tells its own story.
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If tanks could still do what they could prior to I5 then it would be City of Tanks.
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It wasn't City of Tanks then and it wouldn't be city of Tanks now. In fact Tankers were the lowest played AT of the lot. (prior to khelds)
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Nowadays the game is more diverse and team mates actually have a use.
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That's true to an extent but that does't invalidate my request of a passives beef up or a drop of the 55 debuff.
And I'll tell you something about that. You would think the USA boards would have been alight from Defenders and Controllers moaning about their lack of contribution. Rarely, if ever happened. And there is a reason for that. The game lost something when it went "diverse."
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You state why should you have to keep revisiting your main and changing him...well hey thats life..things change. I for one love the IO system it gives more options and longevity to level 50s. If the game remained static it would be pretty dull.
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Don't disagree with that at all. Would just have preferred it if my golden oldie had stopped building after 3 years is all.
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If you want a mature argument then you need to look at yourself. You have demeaned all European players and forum users with jibes about the big boys
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Not at all. I said that because Max kept on insisting nonsense and it was his tone that led me to throw a brick. Much the same as you actually. No one with maturity levels above yours would have thought I was insulting them. And I wasn't.
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(how very mature, sounds like you are back in school).
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Your comment about my "lack of " Tanking was unhelpful, immflammatory and laid out, for me, the levels upon which you think. My reaction was aimed at a specific comment from Max, but yes, the cap probably does fit you moreso than Max actually..
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There are fantastic players on these servers.
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I know that. I play with them.
And I never said Max didn't have game knowledge. I said that to state that taunt is not the reason people cant herd they way they did is nonsense. Even today you can still take out 3 or 4 Tanks, attempt to herd 50 or 60 at a time. But it won't work nearly as well as the old Taunt system because you can't control that sort of aggro now the way you could then.
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You have failed to provide any proof to back up any of your arguments and you have failed to convince most people following this thread that you are actually aware of the role of a tank.
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Badger, I don't think a lot of you. Why? If you had debunked my argument, fine no problem. But you came on and insulted my ability to Tank when all I was doing was stating a case. So I really couln't care less what you think of my Tanking ability.
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Yet you are the one who resorts to the level of personal attacks. If you want people to respect your opinion then give us a reason to.
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I never even heard of you till you posted that I clearly can't Tank. Is that what you mean by personal attack?
I have never ever flamed anyone first.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?
You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works
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A very constructive post...Not.
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Shannon, this non entity doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Like I said, I find it eye opening how, compared to the USA boards, there are so many flamers and juveniles that can't put forward a proper arguament so have to tell me how [censored] I must be at Tanking instead.
To be fair, I see the game from a diffferent perspective than a lot of people on this side of the pond so maybe that's why I seem to antagonise them so much.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.
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Sound reasoning, were it not for the fact that with the aggro cap in place, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Taunt can only affect 5 mobs at a time because you can't control aggro for more than 17 mobs.
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Spad the argument didn't relate to that. I was purely stating, as a response to an earlier post that, because of the taunt nerf, you cannot herd ala the old days.
As I said even if every factor of the game was the same except taunt, it couldn't be done because, firstly, to run around aggroing that sort of number and keeping them, even if the other team members were half a map a way, would be time consuming to the point of pointless.
Secondly, unless you were refreshing the map constantly with taunt (pre I5), you cannot MANAGE that sort of aggro.
You'de be forever chasing your tail because of aggro duration.
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so... you wouldn't be able to do this without taunt? strange.. cause i dont even see the tank targetting any mobs until the end of the fight
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Back then a single taunt would pull almost everything in site. So, for instance, take an AV map and an 8 man team. You see maybe 20 or 30 villians then a bit further another 20 or 30 and so on.
The Tank would jump in the middle of the first mob, one taunt, then run to the second and taunt and then the third... 2 minutes later he would have hundreds of baddies attacking him. The team would then pick them off.
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so you taunt each mob at a time?
see... now... the guy in the video earlier herded 15 mobs and was back at his herd point in under 30 seconds without using taunt.. with six slotted taunt for recharge, you'd have it up every three seconds or so.. so you'd be back to your herd point in just over 45 seconds for herding 15 mobs. so... the 'big boys' herd slower than us little fish?
*deleted by OoOozy*
on a side note, it's nice to see the tanker forum being active! 
even if it is mostly just the usual posters posting more often
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Apparently on the US forums they actually "try to" provide details of why they think INV tanks (or whatever other powerset/AT) should be changed
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Edited. The first post was without the right level of openmindedness to of stepped aside from that imo but being as I hate maths, thats good for me.
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ANY tank can solo on invincible without a problem unless they have a gimped build. To improve any aspect of any tank would make the game even easier for them. Every tank other than granite form can have trouble with 8 man spawns, but hey thats what team mates are there for. If there was no challenge the game would have died. If tanks could still do what they could prior to I5 then it would be City of Tanks. Nowadays the game is more diverse and team mates actually have a use.
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I agree with this, I have a pure build and will solo the Bank missions on Invincible with the Carnie bosses and sappers for cookies.
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You state why should you have to keep revisiting your main and changing him...well hey thats life..things change. I for one love the IO system it gives more options and longevity to level 50s. If the game remained static it would be pretty dull.
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I agree, but will say peoples expectations of Tankers vary, people have a different point of what a Tanker should be able to do and you dont need numbers to back up ones expectations.
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You have failed to provide any proof to back up any of your arguments and you have failed to convince most people following this thread that you are actually aware of the role of a tank. These are the facts. Yet you are the one who resorts to the level of personal attacks. If you want people to respect your opinion then give us a reason to.
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Like I say I dont think numbers are needed to back up ones expectations. Role of the Tanker is to get hit, try to stay alive through what they can do with any helpful dynamic and support from team some expert to be nigh on be without support. Also I dont think many of the people within the thread have been all to guideline abiding. I expect a person with a post count of 11000 to be a damn sight better than a post count of 12.
*Petitions everyone* 
I am not sure continuing with the thread is going to bring about anything constructive at this rate, therefore I suggest agreeing to disagree and base someones capability as a Tanker upon seeing them and then pretty much keeping ones opinions to oneself because everyone has their own idea of what is good and what is not good and people should be left to take people as they find them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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and mobs don't stack on top of each other any more.
[/ QUOTE ]They do, at certain spots.
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and mobs don't stack on top of each other any more.
[/ QUOTE ]They do, at certain spots.
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I have to agree with this, I have pics!! One with CE on 10 foes all in one spot. That was after ED, however I cant get jab to hit 5 anymore 
So ideas of stacking differs, another one for the pot.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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on a side note, it's nice to see the tanker forum being active!
even if it is mostly just the usual posters posting more often
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Two things I dont like to see.
1) Too many people arguing with one person at once. Its like being launched at from all sides. I personally love it if its me.
2) Remarks like, "You cant be any good at "this" if you dont know "this".
3) When people are arguing about 2 different things thinking they are the same thing due to how its worded.
Edited: for my recount of 3
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The Tank would jump in the middle of the first mob, one taunt, then run to the second and taunt and then the third... 2 minutes later he would have hundreds of baddies attacking him. The team would then pick them off.
Now how does that differ from todays taunt?
Well, for one thing taunt can only attract 5 at a time rather than 30-40 whatever.
So, you got to get your little avator to guantlet everything separatly and rely on your inherent taunts to do the rest.
So, you pull a group. Problem is, maintaining the taunt. Cause you can only taunt 5 at a time and inherent aggro has limited range and wears off if not coonstantly on the villian.
So even if there wasn't an aggro limit, you couldn't maintain your grip on them.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, you could. My aggro aura ticks twice per second, aggroing everything within 10 feet of me. I also have a fireball that I can use to taunt groups further away. If there was no aggro cap, I could keep aggro from at least 50 mobs, if there were no AoE caps, I could keep it from several hundred, with a few buffs to boost my survivability.
And yes, that's without taunt.
I also was around during I3 and I4, and saw a lot of herding tanks. The only thing I ever saw any serious herder use taunt for was keeping foes in burn patch once they were herded.
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And, as a clue, if you could aggro everything in sight and were as invulnerable as pre I5 levels, herding, without Taunt, could not be accomplished in anything like the levels that prompted this friendly little debate.
[/ QUOTE ]If you refer to the level of ridiculousness that herding by using taunt reaches, no, it couldn't. If you refer to the amount of mobs, it could, and would be.
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It's not ED. It is the combination of ed and I5 that hit us far far harder thsn most ATS, directly and indirectly.
For a start, Invul Tankers never even thought to use the power pools of aid self or tough before that.
That meant we had to divert 3 powers from our previous game play just to play catch up.
[/ QUOTE ]But at least you COULD catch up. A lot of AT's couldn't.
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It's a bit of a shame to have a character for about 30 months build him to his max and still find yourself haveing to keep improving him all over again.
I don't mind doing that with newer chars but it irks I have to do it with my main.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, it'd be so much more fun if things stayed exactly the same forever.
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on a side note, it's nice to see the tanker forum being active!
even if it is mostly just the usual posters posting more often
[/ QUOTE ]
Two things I dont like to see.
1) Too many people arguing with one person at once. Its like being launched at from all sides. I personally love it if its me.
2) Remarks like, "You cant be any good at "this" if you dont know "this".
3) When people are arguing about 2 different things thinking they are the same thing due to how its worded.
Edited: for my recount of 3
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oh dont get me wrong, this is in no way a good thread.. it's mostly trolling, insults and repetitive arguments.
but its at least making us look like we use our section of the forum...
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Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.
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Sound reasoning, were it not for the fact that with the aggro cap in place, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Taunt can only affect 5 mobs at a time because you can't control aggro for more than 17 mobs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Spad the argument didn't relate to that. I was purely stating, as a response to an earlier post that, because of the taunt nerf, you cannot herd ala the old days.
As I said even if every factor of the game was the same except taunt, it couldn't be done because, firstly, to run around aggroing that sort of number and keeping them, even if the other team members were half a map a way, would be time consuming to the point of pointless.
Secondly, unless you were refreshing the map constantly with taunt (pre I5), you cannot MANAGE that sort of aggro.
You'de be forever chasing your tail because of aggro duration.
Thirdly,Your team would be wiped, because you couldn't hold the aggro as soon as the villians were attacked. And, bearing in mind, a true herder brings (brought) along hundereds, the team would be wiped in a minute. And without the old style taunt in place you could never re establish and maintain anything like that kind of aggro in time.
So, my original point that you can't herd pre I5 levels directly because of taunt, stands.
[/ QUOTE ] Even if I couldn't accomplish all that with just my aggro aura (which I could), I'd still have fireball, which does exactly the same thing as taunt does. Which, basically, nullifies your argument on it's own.
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As I stated, the American boards agree with me. Whether the English boards do or not is fair enough.
[/ QUOTE ] 1. Not everyone on the american boards agrees with you.
2. Unless the americans have changed their language to spanish since I last checked, both boards are english.
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I have more credentials in the game than the vast majority of players on this side of the pond and have been a major Tanker since day one of the USA launch.
[/ QUOTE ]I know people who've played since launch who still suck at the game, and don't understand most of the mechanics behind it. Playtime is irrelevant, what matters is understanding the game.
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Just because I want the current state of Tanking to be more in line with how it was, abiet a scaled doewn version, doesn't entitle people to question my ability to play the game
[/ QUOTE ]No, it doesn't. The fact that you say you can't handle the current mobs does.
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In Maxes case, had he ever herded ewith the real American herders, he would never have commented that he can Herd as well, without taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]Whether they were american or not is irrelevant, I witnessed loads of different tanks herding pre-I5, and I know how they did it.
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But surely that wouldn't be even half as fun
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Max Ftw!
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out of interest, how many can you herd at once?
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No where near as many as before taunt was weakened. Not even half. Max doesn't know what he's yapping about.
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Err... Right. You asked MaX how many villains you can aggro at once and you got the correct answer. Now you're whining that he gave you the wrong answer to a question which you didnt ask?
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Back then a single taunt would pull almost everything in site. So, for instance, take an AV map and an 8 man team. You see maybe 20 or 30 villians then a bit further another 20 or 30 and so on.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now how does that differ from todays taunt?
Well, for one thing taunt can only attract 5 at a time rather than 30-40 whatever.
So, you got to get your little avator to guantlet everything separatly and rely on your inherent taunts to do the rest.
[/ QUOTE ]
Inherent taunt as in punchvoke? You know, devs gave tanks aggro auras for a reason. For real.
Wow. I dont know if you're trolling or if you really dont have a clue about tanking... :/
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein