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so... you wouldn't be able to do this without taunt? strange.. cause i dont even see the tank targetting any mobs until the end of the fight
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Mr. Motivator, that example you just gave did not fit the criteria for a real old time Herd. The type you need taunt for.
1) The numbers were very low, maybe 10 or 20% of a true herd. That meant they were within the range of AOE aggro management.
It also meant that once aggroed, the duration hadn't dropped. Whereas, running around a field, collecting a true herd,(without pre I5 taunt) would have taken much longer and the duration would have become a factor.
A real herd was about 3 or 4 times wider. And the out section of the mob that was still aggroed, would end up out of AoE range and would start to wander when the aggro duration dropped.
2) The whole point of herding is to keep an immense amount of villians on you while your team mates take bites at em, without the villians hitting back.
Where in this scene was a single team mate doing that?
If they had, that group would have turned on them and the Tank wouldn't have been able to save the newly inundated hero.
That's because as soon as the other hero attacks, the villians attention will switch to them.
And, without the old fashioned taunt, the Tanker is unlikely to be able to refresh aggro enough to protect his friend.
(Actually I may be wrong in this instance because the numbers are so small but hopefully you get my point.)
There are other points that are contrary to a true old fashioned herd.
But enough now.
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so you taunt each mob at a time?
see... now... the guy in the video earlier herded 15 mobs and was back at his herd point in under 30 seconds without using taunt.. with six slotted taunt for recharge, you'd have it up every three seconds or so.. so you'd be back to your herd point in just over 45 seconds for herding 15 mobs. so... the 'big boys' herd slower than us little fish?
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Sorry mate. Bad example. It's like showing me a footballer dribbling past cardboard dummies and then telling me he can beat 10 men on the trot.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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This thread is unpleasant. I dont see carrying on with it as a good idea. I think when you said you'd leave it. That was the right decision but you came back.
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Moth to the flame. But I hear you. Thank's for the support. Over and out.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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I am not yet fully IOed (with the sets I mean) but currently cannot withstand 8 team damage for long if the damage is anything other than S/L.
So, in those senarios I don`t always taunt.
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THIS is what causes me to question your abilities as a tank
You have stated that you are unable to cope with an 8 man team spawn and try to lose aggro
Any tank worth his place in the team knows that their job is vital in keeping the team alive, failure to actually hold aggro results in team wipes. A tank is far more surviveable than any other AT
I have never said that you can't tank. You said it yourself in the opening post of the thread
I have, however, said that you don't seem to understand game mechanics, which again you have agreed earlier in this thread.
I have not called you any names. You have resorted to calling me names rather than actually providing a counter argument against those that disagree with you.
In order to call for a change to a particular powerset you need to know how other powersets in the AT perform. As you have stated, you have never played any other form of tank. Therefore what you are calling for could completely unbalance the game. But you have no idea whether that is the case as you have not done the work needed in order to make such a bold statement that Invulnerability needs an improvement.
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Yet, pro rata, the subs on this game are not as impressive as then.
I would think that tells its own story.
[/ QUOTE ] Less people play the game as time passes, what a shocking relevation indeed.
Besides, last I checked, the subs were going up.
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If tanks could still do what they could prior to I5 then it would be City of Tanks.
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It wasn't City of Tanks then and it wouldn't be city of Tanks now. In fact Tankers were the lowest played AT of the lot. (prior to khelds)
[/ QUOTE ]Everybody was rolling fire/fire tanks in I3. When burn got fixed, people were rolling fire/ice tanks left, right and center.
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Nowadays the game is more diverse and team mates actually have a use.
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That's true to an extent but that does't invalidate my request of a passives beef up or a drop of the 55 debuff.
And I'll tell you something about that. You would think the USA boards would have been alight from Defenders and Controllers moaning about their lack of contribution. Rarely, if ever happened. And there is a reason for that. The game lost something when it went "diverse."
[/ QUOTE ]I remember quite a few posts by buffers, especially FF's, saying that teams didn't want them or that they didn't feel like they were really contributing. Funny that, eh?
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You state why should you have to keep revisiting your main and changing him...well hey thats life..things change. I for one love the IO system it gives more options and longevity to level 50s. If the game remained static it would be pretty dull.
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Don't disagree with that at all. Would just have preferred it if my golden oldie had stopped building after 3 years is all.
[/ QUOTE ] So you say you don't disagree with it, and in the next sentence you do?
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And I never said Max didn't have game knowledge. I said that to state that taunt is not the reason people cant herd they way they did is nonsense. Even today you can still take out 3 or 4 Tanks, attempt to herd 50 or 60 at a time. But it won't work nearly as well as the old Taunt system because you can't control that sort of aggro now the way you could then.
[/ QUOTE ] One tank can herd 17 foes, 4 tanks could herd 60 just fine, as long as they don't get in the way of each other.
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so... you wouldn't be able to do this without taunt? strange.. cause i dont even see the tank targetting any mobs until the end of the fight
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Mr. Motivator, that example you just gave did not fit the criteria for a real old time Herd.
[/ QUOTE ]On this, we agree. However, that same type of herding could be used on a far larger scale. You apparently never saw it done, but that doesn't make it any less true.
*post deleted as things are bad enough in this thread as is*
Those foes iirc, you didnt need a thing, once they clapped eyes on you they would follow you the entire map. Knives of Artemis versus my SR "OMG so many caltrops!" However Freaks only had so much interest. I went for herd 10 groups defeat 10 groups, keeping that many interested meant having to aggro again.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
it was the only video i could find of pre nerf herding.. so sue me. if i could find one of a bigger herd i'd have used that. i didnt know how to make videos of the game at the time, otherwise would have a few corkers for ya.
Scrappers, some can be first into the middle of the Rikti ship and do battle unaided for mins on end and, then go get a bomb drawing crowds with them, getting attacked whilst removing a grate, then getting attacked as they go and click a glowie bomb before returning to the middle of the ship and fighting totally without support, that is until they return to the middle. Some scrapper called Katalina who regards herself as "The worst scrapper on Union" was just doing that the other day. Therefore they can handle themselves.
Teams arent always made up of squishies and teams arent always made with adequate support versus enemy. The not taunting of some enemies in order to not overwhelm oneself without overwhelming anyone in team is a viable move if scrappers can take up the slack!
In teams, controllers, blasters, defenders are my concern. Scrappers dont often need me at all, not that I do much for them anyway, they share my AoEs sometimes, but even blasters and controllers have 'asked' for stragglers to be kept free so atleast they can have some fun. I dont do fun but sometimes I allow for it by allowing one or two strays.
Dont get me wrong I hate a single chance of an enemy hitting a defender, controller or blaster but if its a trustee scrapper its not normally in anyway compromising.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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And I never said Max didn't have game knowledge. I said that to state that taunt is not the reason people cant herd they way they did is nonsense. Even today you can still take out 3 or 4 Tanks, attempt to herd 50 or 60 at a time. But it won't work nearly as well as the old Taunt system because you can't control that sort of aggro now the way you could then.
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You STILL dont have a frigging clue dont you? Well let me draw you a picture.
Imagine for hypothetical reasons a taunt power, which, when activated, taunts every mob in a five-mile radius and has no target cap. Taunt duration is for instance one hour. Everything else with the tank remain the same.
Tank is on a map with 100+ mobs in it. It activates this hypothetical taunt. How many mobs gather on the tank?
SEVENTEEN
Because that, my friend, is what the aggro cap is. It doesnt matter a thing what the taunting powers are. The rest of the aggroed mobs target something else, like your team. It is possible to keep a lot of mobs on you if the mobs die fast enough, but if damage is not taken into consideration, 17 is how far it goes.
A normal real tanker (f.ex. invul) has taunt aura which iirc had a target cap of 10 with activation interval of 1 second, normal taunt with target cap of 6, every attack it does has a small PBAOE taunt of 5 targets affected (gauntlet), including the PBAOE attack which iirc all secondaries have, plus possibly fireball from fire epic which is a targeted AOE and ALSO triggers gauntlet, the small PBAOE taunt from the target hit.
If you cannot hit the aggro cap in a few seconds with these tools I wouldnt call myself one of the best tankers in the game. You just didnt have a clue what you were talking about, time to admit it. Refusal to acknowledge the aggro cap is why these people including me were making fun out of you. Time to stop now.
ps. If you use more than one tanker, theres a good chance that they are stealing aggro from each other, since the only thing that can override taunt from tank is another tank. Spamming powers is not enough, the tankers need to make sure they get enough coverage.
If you taunted a 100 for a one hour duration and the aggro cap was 17 then you will have only 17 looking for you at any one time and any unaggro'd but taunted foes will not be able to attack other players who cant exceed the taunt duration.
A greater ability to multihit with taunt of say 17 would make the need for gauntlet or taunt in the aura, for those with taunt, unnecessary. It would save a whole lot of n00b butts by preventing herdmessing on Break of LoS pulls. It would also mean that I can slot for 3 taunt duration, taunt a group to me, then have them firecaged and bugger off, leaving the team to it, safe in the knowledge that no one is getting hit.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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If you taunted a 100 for a one hour duration and the aggro cap was 17 then you will have only 17 looking for you at any one time and any unaggro'd but taunted foes will not be able to attack other players who cant exceed the taunt duration.
[/ QUOTE ]It used to be that way when the aggro cap was added, but from what I've seen, nowdays they're quite happy to attack anyone in sight.
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If you taunted a 100 for a one hour duration and the aggro cap was 17 then you will have only 17 looking for you at any one time and any unaggro'd but taunted foes will not be able to attack other players who cant exceed the taunt duration.
[/ QUOTE ]It used to be that way when the aggro cap was added, but from what I've seen, nowdays they're quite happy to attack anyone in sight.
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yeah it does seem that way.
I was going to say that my own experiences du not support what Shannon said, good to see that Im not alone in my views.
If I could with my controller hold a group of 100 for 1 hour I would but then with aggro cap at only 17, only 17 would want to attack me but 83 would still be held. Taunt duration limits an enemy to whom they can target. Its either there or gone.
Edit: I think I see what people are on about, I am talking about if you could apply a taunt duration to more than 17, with aggro cap, once you have 17 you cant effect more with the effect until one of the already had 17 loses it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
You can test that quite easily, In fact I've done this on my INV tanker several times.
The easiest method is to use taunt (slotted for taunt duration and recharge) and target a different 5 mobs each time- on the forth application you will be trying to aggro 20 mobs, and 3 mobs will drop aggro from you.
Those 3 might still technically be under the effect of taunt (since you taunted them plus two others with one taunt application) but since you are over the aggro cap they will not attack you. They will however quite happily attack anyone else of an appropriate level within their sight radius, including squishy teammates.
A real in-game example is to jump into a BIG herd with your taunt aura running on a XXXX/SS/Fire, and use Taunt, Fireball, Footstomp. Chances are that you'll hit far more than the aggro cap with gauntlet/taunt effects, but only 17 mobs will actually end up attacking you. Aggro will be completely lost on any other foes.
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Imagine for hypothetical reasons a taunt power, which, when activated, "taunts" every mob in a five-mile radius and has no target cap. Taunt duration is for instance one hour. Everything else with the tank remain the same.
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See I was imagining that hypothetical taunt, "taunting" every mob with no disabling. Because if something is taunted, its taunted, disabled taunting is not taunting.
Long ago, when aggrocaps came out I went to Rikti island and quickly established Taunt doesnt work beyond 17. I know that once you have aggro cap, thats it, but I am thinking that Taunt doesnt Taunt anymore, if it did it'll work, it doesnt work because its disabled.
"If something is taunted its taunted"
and if its taunted then it cant target anyone else.
It works with the aggro cap but unlike other effects taunt is disabled above 17. I have as a controller mass hypnotised more than 17, however only 17 would want my body if it aggroed and was seeing things in terms of Taunt actually working beyond aggro cap from what Hammerfall was saying with the hypothetical taunt actually taunting. It doesnt work beyond aggro cap unlike my ability to mass sleep beyond aggro cap, it works with the aggro cap. If taunt actually worked beyond it then enemies will target no one just like slept enemies cant attack anyone. Only if something is defeated and room is made within the aggro limit Taunt might work hence the existance of the Congaline of Stupidity trick (that I know I have mentioned on the forums before). Taunt beyond aggro cap is therefore disabled where as other effects arent and so no taunt effect is there till room is made within the aggro cap. So when I looked at the taunting of 100 foes with the hypothetical taunt I thought of it actually taunting as disabled taunt doesnt taunt.
If it were possible against 20 people in PvP Id be looking to expect a possible 'unaffected' to change to 'taunted' after a short delay when taunt has worn off someone else.
But like I said above in the Edit which was roughly 5 minutes after that post, I get what people are saying, the picture I had from Hammerfalls wording was if Taunt was actually able to work, otherwise it is disabled and there isnt a taunt in effect.
If I have to reiterate more than this:
*chucks book* 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Looking at the info I think the additional mobs might be affected by the taunt effect, but the game also 'suppresses' taunt (similar than for instance PVP mez suppression) on all enemies past the 17 limit. This would allow some of those affected but suppressed mobs maybe gain tank aggro once some of the 17 is defeated and if the taunt was still on them. When taunt would be suppressed, I believe those mobs are able to target anything they want except the tank that taunted them. I guess this suppressed aggro would work the same for any toon, tank aggro just overrides any other type of aggro.
This is pure guess work on my part, Im just making observations. And its really not that important anyway since a highlvl team with couple controllers, kin or a few etc is easily capable of controlling and reliably neutralizing a larger group of enemies than tanker.
Personally I always wanted to tank a few, but hard enemies, not humongous amounts of ants. Pity that the devs did not agree with me.
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See I was imagining that hypothetical taunt, "taunting" every mob with no disabling. Because if something is taunted, its taunted, disabled taunting is not taunting.
[Snipped]
"If something is taunted its taunted"
and if its taunted then it cant target anyone else.
It works with the aggro cap but unlike other effects taunt is disabled above 17.
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I get this, and that's precisely what I was adressing in the post above yours.
If you taunted 4 seperate groups of 5 mobs (with a long-lasting taunt) then how could the taunt effect be "disabled" on the last three mobs? The taunt would be cast simultaneously on a group of 5 mobs (you can even see the "I'm taunted" star appear on their heads)- but two would aggro you and three would not.
As far as I know there is no game mechanic in place that allows an abiity to "miss" based on mobs currently not the target of that ability, and since all of those last five taunted mobs display the "I'm being taunted" graphical effect it's reasonable to assume that all five were physically hit by the taunt power and come under the effect of a "taunt".
Perhaps this could be tested with a Tanker + another heroic toon versus 3 Masterminds in a PvP match- you'd have 18 minions and 17 is the aggro cap... the Masterminds set their pets attacking the second toon and the tanker taunts them away- the Masterminds would be able to tell from buff icons whether all of the henchmen could actually be brought under the effect of a taunt. I'm fairly certain that all 18 of the pets could be physically "taunted" (and have the "taunt" icon appear in their pet window) but that one pet will keep attacking that second heroic toon no matter what the tanker does.
If that's the case then it's not the "taunt" effect that is disabled, but the targetting of the tanker (much like a Stalker casting placate on an enemy), mobs that are over the aggro cap simply forget that the tanker was ever there... the tanker can taunt them and hit them with guantlet but they simply won't target the tanker until the tanker has the attention of less than 17 foes.
If I go to hold a Invuln Tanker with my Mind controllers dominate in pvp and it doesnt miss, the hold buff icon will be on the tanker but Id have to use dominate about 3 more times to actually hold the tanker. That one hold despite being on the Tanker doesnt actually hold the Tanker, therefore I wouldnt describe the Tanker as held, would you?
If I manage to put a hold on someone and they arent held, they arent held. If i put a taunt on someone and they arent taunted, they arent taunted. I see what you guys are saying but thats how I look at it. A disabled taunt isnt taunting.
If a taunt buff icon on a pet means the pet is taunted to you, thats your way of looking at it, for me it doesnt count just like a hold icon on a Tanker doesnt mean a Tanker is held, until something else helps happens like more holds are stacked. A MM pet can be hitting someone that didnt taunt them therefore taunt mode is disabled and the pet isnt taunted until the taunt mode can be abled.
You can physically try to taunt, but unless a villain over the aggro cap is attacking you its not taunted, taunt mode is disabled till room within the aggro cap is made.
Anyways I took a hypothetical taunt (which allows room for some fantasy) as a taunt that actually taunted, not tried to taunt, but actually taunted.
If its taunted and taunt is abled then its taunted!
*throws book*
We have 2 ways of looking at it, mine is no different to the difference between putting a hold on a tanker and the tanker actually getting held despite the mechanics being different.
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Personally I always wanted to tank a few, but hard enemies, not humongous amounts of ants. Pity that the devs did not agree with me.
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I do know that making costumes takes time. If like in the comic books each villain came with its different set of costumes due to being a "hard" enemy, they'd be fewer harder enemies which doesnt cover the 100s of hours of game play thats needed to be filled. So they did super powered street mobs instead with some harder enemies like AVs and then Named Bosses.
I am open to there being good reasons for the aggro cap that are good reasons without me knowing them. The Devs do what they do for a living for a reason. 17 has never been a problem for me. I dont need to gain attention of more for any reason mainly because the need to gain more attention is avoidable.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
What are you two even arguing about? From where Im standing it looks like you agree on this issue..
Not arguing, I have debated on an issue where I agreed with Maelwys before, just worded differently, looked at things from another angle, its amazing how things can be worded and 'possibly' lead to misconceptions as in what someone is trying to say.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Aye, from my POV a foe that has received a "taunt" effect would be taunted regardless of its actions... like I would consider a mob to be under the effect of a "hold" even if the mag of the hold hasn't overcome that mob's mez protection.
Was just talking cross purposes (since when Shannon commented on the cone Taunt that effects >17 targets, I assumed we were talking about the actual taunt effect rather than the mob's subsequent behaviour!!) 
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See I was imagining that hypothetical taunt, "taunting" every mob with no disabling. Because if something is taunted, its taunted, disabled taunting is not taunting.
Long ago, when aggrocaps came out I went to Rikti island and quickly established Taunt doesnt work beyond 17. I know that once you have aggro cap, thats it, but I am thinking that Taunt doesnt Taunt anymore, if it did it'll work, it doesnt work because its disabled.
"If something is taunted its taunted"
and if its taunted then it cant target anyone else.
It works with the aggro cap but unlike other effects taunt is disabled above 17.
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See, for me this bit would mean that you're saying that taunt (the power) can't apply a taunt effect (the power effect, represented by a buff icon) on anything above 17 mobs. Hence the confuzzlement...
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Not arguing, I have debated on an issue where I agreed with Maelwys before, just worded differently, looked at things from another angle, its amazing how things can be worded and 'possibly' lead to misconceptions as in what someone is trying to say.
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Only one pseudo-word with which I can respond to this: LoL
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You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?
You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works
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A very constructive post...Not.
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Shannon, this non entity doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Like I said, I find it eye opening how, compared to the USA boards, there are so many flamers and juveniles that can't put forward a proper arguament so have to tell me how [censored] I must be at Tanking instead.
To be fair, I see the game from a different perspective than a lot of people on this side of the pond so maybe that's why I seem to antagonise them so much.
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US boards have the same thing, except if you made a post like yours you would probably have half the Tanker section agreeing with you and producing numbers for you because the expectations of a Tanker differs.
This thread is unpleasant. I dont see carrying on with it as a good idea. I think when you said you'd leave it. That was the right decision but you came back. Sometimes its best to go away, create numbers and dig up the grave with something convincing as you now know thats what people want but try to bear in mind peoples ideas of Tanker differ and expectations of Tankers differ.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.