[ QUOTE ]
So can I aggro someone without taking damage?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, although that's rarely necessary.
And even if the tank was taking damage, and had no way of mitigating it, it can be mitigated by other support characters. However, those other support characters can NOT focus the aggro in the way a tank can. Therefore, aggro control is a more important job for the tank.
[ QUOTE ]
WRT Unyielding.
Vs an even level minion attacking 100 times. If you had 10% DEF and Unyielding took away 5%, you would go from being hit 40 times to being hit 45 times - an increase of 12.5%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok. In other words I get hit more often.
[ QUOTE ]
If you had 45% DEF and Unyielding took away 5% you'd go from being hit 5 times to being hit 10 times, an increase of 100%.
[/ QUOTE ]
In other words I get hit more often.
Er isn`t this the point I was making? That unyeildings 5% debuff means i get hit more often and that these days I think that`s overkill?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
Max, unyeilding gives you a -5% debuff. It is operational the whole time unyeilding is up. If it`s up you get hit 5% more than if it isn`t up. 100% of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here is the guide to defense and accuracy :
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...Number=5759413
Well worth a read if you want to make some kind of case here.
Or even just to improve your build.
[ QUOTE ]
In other words I get hit more often.
Er isn`t this the point I was making?
[/ QUOTE ]No. You were claiming that you'd always get hit 5% more often with it on. This is untrue, the actual increase in being hit can be anything between 0% and 100%.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In other words I get hit more often.
Er isn`t this the point I was making?
[/ QUOTE ]No. You were claiming that you'd always get hit 5% more often with it on. This is untrue, the actual increase in being hit can be anything between 0% and 100%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then I stand humbled although a bit baffled. My overall point stands. We get hit too often.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
We get hit too often.
[/ QUOTE ]
Compared to what?
With Invincibility and Tough Hide you can get some decent defense in place, with the resistances on top you can really build some survivability.
(Not to mention what you can do with some of the IO Sets out there)
As for Unyielding my guess would be that if the Devs removed the -5% def penalty from that they would simply remove 5% from Invincibility instead.
Then we would be back were we started.
Except worse off IMO as you wouldn't have the option of turning off Unyielding if you didn't need it at the time.
An Inv tank does tend to be a late bloomer but it in no way under performs compared to the others IMO.
I was on Shannon the other day and I spied a lvl 54 Rikti street group, "great xp!" I thought (no I didnt) "Great xp/time" I thought, (no I didnt once again because thats not necessarily true) but however I am gonna solo "All of them!" and so I did, sometimes even I like a good fight.
I herded them up fast and started with my stomp, kb on a boss (atleast 3 bosses in that iirc), a portal opened up and more came (Good to not herd 17 then have a portal aint it) I was taking too many hits and needed to Dullpain and use Rage to reduce as much fight duration as possible and then Unstoppable to survive, I needed them all finished before my crash! The fight was then quite easy and Geas was used as +rechg etc despite its -defing me I was fine, I was Unstoppable anyway and so I kept on fighting. Rage and my greater dps was still not quite cutting the mustard then came the Unstoppable crash and so I used that Archmage accolade cos I decided defiantly I wasnt going to move, I was gonna crash in the middle of them and so I did, then to a dullpain and fought as bravely as I could till I was down to 3 last Rikti. My health wasnt good, I needed time, I used movement, splitting and hitting, splitting and hitting my last 3.
My Firetanker version is alot messier, plenty of blood and guts all over the place, none of them Rikti 
Ofc with a single person offering support Id of done everything better but not if they got aggro and got defeated and so Tanking is all about Taunt control. Survivability also comes from support. Support doesnt come from dead people. I dont care if I cant tank it all. I will damn well try in the hope that when I give perfection in supporting the team I get perfection back
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I'd be quite happy with dropping the 5% defence debuff from Unyielding. INV does seem to be underpowered against non-S/L damage, and there's no real reason why INV should have a power that cripples itself.
That said, concerning Rikti INV really isn't that bad. The monkeys and the priests are about the only thing that do Psionic damage, and the monkeys can be effectively ignored if you have an AoE like footstomp.
The rest of the rikti generally aren't too bad to tank, I've tanked the Honouree outside unstoppable without recieving outside healing on my INV/SS... the trick is often to keep your foes into melee range. If you do that, they'll mostly (drones aside) be hitting you with attacks that contain a S/L component, and Invincibility will be increasing your defence.
Post-I9 with IOs, my INV/SS tanker actually feels quite powerful. Unstoppable up nearly half the time, at the tanker HP cap constantly (Dull Pain recharge is 112 secs with Hasten, and Hasten has less than 19 secs downtime), 90% S/L resists and 16-20% "other" resists (except Psi), with Defence ranging from 28% to 49.5% depending on how many foes are inside Invincibility Range. Not forgetting the added survivability when Footstomp is up every 7 seconds. And 270% regen as an afterthought... 
Way underpowered... +5% extra defence? Yes please!! 
My Inv tank dosnt feel under powered at all, i have taken the fighting pool and left out resist fire and energies though!!
With IOs the only enemies i ever have trouble tanking are AVs and psionics are always going to be the downfall of any tank that isnt granite.
I personally cant see a problem, but that might change once i level up my ice tank a bit
the reason that inv is fine is because it is split def/res. you increase the def and it encroaches further on ice tanks.. there are already a few ice tanks who disagree that inv should be as defence based as it is.
how do i think the sets fare?
Ice is good as it is, will be awesome if they sort out the dodgy accuracy buffs that some enemies have... best aggro holding ability. also has, imo, the most useful tier9... with good enough recharge there's no need for an ice tank to die after lvl32 unless it makes a mistake.
Stone feels slightly less powerful than ice, and with reduced maneuverability.. but as compensation they have a god mode toggle. GA is very tough, however it has severe troubles holding aggro, has reduced maneuverability, and lower damage.. which, imo, balances it out.
Inv has good res to s/l and some res to other damage types. Has good defence to all and good aggro holding ability, also has a god-mode power, but without the restrictions of GA. However you have to put up with it crashing (tho having said that, provided you have a CaB the crash is easy to deal with thanks to the blinky buff icons)
Fire has lower s/l res than inv, no defence, no kb protection and immob protection that loses you aggro left right and centre. In return it gets the best damage aura... but not comparable in terms of aggro management to the taunt auras of ice/inv, a self damage buff, a good self heal.. but no maxhp boost, and the only tier9 which requires you to die to be used.
imo, they are all balanced except fire. Fire get extra damage in the form of fieryembrace.. but it really isnt enough to compensate for the lack of defences. Burn used to do that by providing mitigation by damage. now it doesnt.
I really think invuln should only receive a slight boost to the passive resist powers. For scrappers they aren't worth anything (5.63% resistance to few damage pools at the cost of one power, who wants that, eh?) and for tankers slightly more useful (7.5%).
Just a slight boost to those and invuln is just fine against other things than S/L damage, too.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
My firetanker wouldnt of lasted in that 54 Rikti, not without some off and on kiting, flight preferred, she would of had to of RotP'd somewhere in all that and in the time my Inv/ss would of kept on fighting, she would of probably had to RotP again most likely, do I worry about Firetankers? Nope, they make greater xp/time that additional chance of debt is a bit balancing in terms of that.
I am slightly underwhelmed with RotP personally, the mode after resurrection is simply a let down 
with only the graphics and chance to regain aggro after defeat being a good thing (although since you are immob for first couple of seconds its not that good) the movement should be allowed back! Priority? Nope. I see the problems going on with Oil slick as a bigger problem.
[ QUOTE ]
The rest of the rikti generally aren't too bad to tank, I've tanked the Honouree outside unstoppable without recieving outside healing on my INV/SS... the trick is often to keep your foes into melee range. If you do that, they'll mostly (drones aside) be hitting you with attacks that contain a S/L component, and Invincibility will be increasing your defence.
[/ QUOTE ]
With Frozen Aura that can get even easier, cos that matches what I had been saying about what can be done with the power however iirc Honoree is Energy Melee, like Tyrant and Siege and they are easily limited into what and how many attacks you can allow them to do.
The melee to get smash and lethal is why as a Firetank Id of had to on and off kited 54 rikti, to get as much ranged energy as possible instead of melee lethal.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
My two penneth worth...
My first character that I created was an inv/fire tanker. Picked him for the insane resistance (back in I3 or 4, before ED and when the res/def was still huge) and damage output of fire (arguably one of the most damaging powersets for a tanker - but that's by-the-by).
I sent him to the grave (for about 6 months, thanks to a botched respec) when I5 came out and read, with relish, all the flaming posts that spewed forth onto the forums about "How tanks, especially inv, have been nerfed."
When I respecced when I6 came out to take into account ED and the reduced effectiveness of the resistances that I once had, I started to appreciate the subtleties that it brought with it. No longer could I solely tank for a team of 8 with 7 blasters/scrappers. No longer could I 'BRB - bio break' whilst stood in the middle of 30 +4s with perma-taunt on running invincibility to hold aggro.
CoX is now harder to play solo than it used to be back in the pre-I5 days (due to not being able to whack 5 damage SOs in your powers without being severely reduced, or 6 recharge SOs in RA). So what it seems that the devs want tankers to do, to tank effectively and with less worry of faceplanting, is to team with other ATs (especially defenders/trollers). I found that, with my inv tanker, I can almost get up to the same resistances that I had pre-I5 with just one sonic defender. Get 2, or a sonic and a FF bubbler, and you're laughing.
I don't know how much of this applies now to when I5 was launched, but I remember a lot of tankers with their noses put out of joint (how DARE they - they've made me nothing more than a second-rate scrapper). But it's the same for every AT out there. A blaster and scrapper can't dish out the damage that they used to be able to. An empath can't heal as much as they used to be able to. The poor controller had his controlling abilities nerfed so much that the devs introduced 'containment' as a way for them to in effect double their damage, to make up for a loss of their controlling abilities.
Now, after side-tracking a HUGE amount, I've come about full-circle to address the issue that's being discussed. I don't believe that tankers are under-powered. They can be buffed up to the nines to make them almost unstoppable. If they WERE like they were back in the days pre-I5, then that would make the sonic and FF powersets much less appreciated than they are now. Tankers back then were way overpowered and the only chance of dying that they had is either against psionic enemies or if they'd inadvertently wandered into The Hive (even then, they'd have stood for a fair while before falling!)
That the inv tank is weaker against all damage apart from S/L is balanced IMO. Save the ice tank, he has the highest defense of all tanks, meaning that he will be hit less (the old -5% from unyielding, I do believe, would make a difference, albeit rather minor. As described before, it does not mean that you'll be hit 5% more often with the debuff, it means that each time a bad guy takes a shot at you, you've got slightly more chance of being hit). If the inv tank were like he was pre-I5, then it would be very unbalanced. All builds need to have a weakness. S/L is the most common type of damage in the game. Yes, most mobs do other types of damage too, but they all do S/L when they get into melee range.
Try teaming with a sonic defender/troller - they are worth their weight in gold, and you'll feel what it's like to feel pretty much unstoppable again.
to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....
edit: no offense
[ QUOTE ]
But it's the same for every AT out there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Invulnerable Tankers were hit FAR harder than almost any other AT. And in many different ways. And don't forget our damage was mitigated too.
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers back then were way overpowered. and the only chance of dying that they had is either against psionic enemies or if they'd inadvertently wandered into The Hive (even then, they'd have stood for a fair while before falling!)
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, by what definition were invul Tankers overpowered? Ever? (I exclude taunt which WAS overpowered)
Surely the defining requisite for overpowered is levelling. Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers. You were trading the feeling of being "invulnerable" for levelling expediency.
Secondly, the only time the Tankers were unkillable is probably middle to late thirties.
After that psionics, sappers, any energy sucker, malta, untyped damage etc, could and did cause us trouble.
[ QUOTE ]
If the inv tank were like he was pre-I5, then it would be very unbalanced. All builds need to have a weakness.
[/ QUOTE ]
We had one. Psionics. And a slow attack chain.
We`re actually not as strong against S/L as we once were. Certainly not without tough. And, to be fair, the level of S/L we can now withstand IS probably about right. But I do see why our resists can't be relative to those levels.
[ QUOTE ]
Try teaming with a sonic defender/troller - they are worth their weight in gold, and you'll feel what it's like to feel pretty much unstoppable again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I tend to get invited into teams and don't pick who I team with. And don't care. I team with who I team with.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....
edit: no offense
[/ QUOTE ]
For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.
But comments like this make me decide to drop this thread.
I'll leave the good fight to my American friends who are far more elequent than I am.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it's the same for every AT out there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Invulnerable Tankers were hit FAR harder than almost any other AT.
[/ QUOTE ]No, they really weren't. And they're not an AT either.
[ QUOTE ]
Surely the defining requisite for overpowered is levelling. Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers.
[/ QUOTE ] Not when played well.
[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, the only time the Tankers were unkillable is probably middle to late thirties.
After that psionics, sappers, any energy sucker, malta, untyped damage etc, could and did cause us trouble.
[/ QUOTE ] But you don't need to fight those foes, you can make it from 40 to 50 figthing nothing but freaks if you want.
[ QUOTE ]
We`re actually not as strong against S/L as we once were. Certainly not without tough.
[/ QUOTE ] With tough and proper slotting you hit the S/L resist cap, while also having quite high defense.
Agreed Max. You can hit the S/L cap (my inv tank has with 3-slotted tough - 90.4%, I think - so capped at 90%). Before I5, I was at something stupid around 150% (that was 6-slotting unyielding, more for the energy/fire/cold etc res than S/L) - so it was overkill.
What has happened is that a balance has been brought about. Look at fire tankers - they can handle energy thrown at them left, right and centre. Their dream mission is a map full of freaks. Then the ice tanker - if they DO get hit, they hit the cap of cold resistance easily. Neither of them can stand toe-to-toe with Battle Maiden as long as an inv tank can because they don't have the same level of resistance to S/L as an inv does.
So to say that inv tankers DO have a weakness - i.e. psionics - is unbalanced. ALL tankers have that vulnerability (the exception of a stone tanker, who has a meagre 16% [unslotted] defense to it - but that makes him unable to run GA if he's running minerals). Inv trades resistance to energy/negative/toxic/fire/cold to potentially hit the resistance cap to S/L. Fire hits the resistance cap to energy by trading off other resistances. Ice is the same with cold damage. From where I'm sat, it looks pretty cushy for what an inv tanker gets. Master of S/L damage resistance (by far the most common type of damage throughout the game) and fair resistance to all other types of damage (with the exception of psionics, but that goes for all powersets available to tankers).
Fire tanks can only hit the resistance cap vs fire, they have only one shield vs energy which gives around 47% resistance
D'oh - knew I'd gotten it wrong as I was writing it (not on my PC, so don't have access to hero planner to verify for fire tanker) - knew it was cap on one of the damage types. But again, it's just ONE damage, whereas inv still gets 2.
[ QUOTE ]
Fire tanks can only hit the resistance cap vs fire
[/ QUOTE ]And toxic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....
edit: no offense
[/ QUOTE ]
For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
You certainly dont sound like one.
[ QUOTE ]
But it's the same for every AT out there.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Invulnerable Tankers were hit FAR harder than almost any other AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, they really weren't. And they're not an AT either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who was hit harder pray tell? And I made a typo about AT. whoopie.
[ QUOTE ]
Surely the defining requisite for overpowered is levelling. Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not when played well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tankers were one of, if not the slowest levellers. And I actualy play mine very well. This is a nonsense arguament. That they were slow levellers is a fact not an opinion.
Maybe if you played 8 man teams every time you logged on you could match the others. But pro rata Tankers were slow levellers.
[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, the only time the Tankers were unkillable is probably middle to late thirties.
After that psionics, sappers, any energy sucker, malta, untyped damage etc, could and did cause us trouble.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But you don't need to fight those foes, you can make it from 40 to 50 figthing nothing but freaks if you want.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would I want to just fight freaks? And that`s irrelevant. I was saying we were not unkillable.
[ QUOTE ]
We`re actually not as strong against S/L as we once were. Certainly not without tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With tough and proper slotting you hit the S/L resist cap, while also having quite high defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
I`m actually not sure about that. Its possible im confusing energy with S/L. For instance against Nemisis minions, they could never even scratch me, no matter how many they were. Now, I have to be a bit more crareful. I dont seem to be quite as incvulnerable in a large crowd.
Oh and I did mention that I cant get there without tough.
I never had tough before i5.
But that could be my imagination I suppose.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....
edit: no offense
[/ QUOTE ]
For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.
But comments like this make me decide to drop this thread.
I'll leave the good fight to my American friends who are far more elequent than I am.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is no "I" in Team
*double checks*
Any person can be or not be as a result of themselves and their team. Cos you do PuGs your asking for trouble
I made an Icetanker on Infinity the other week, last week, i was lvl 6 and I gave it the "I will herd to here!" and i got floored...not what I am used to . On Vigilance my 14 energy/energy brute gave it the "I will herd to here" and some really nice Sonic/thermal Corrupter filled my Insp tray in the hope that:
A) I stay upstanding incase she doesnt do enough
B) I let nothing drop her
and thats how it worked for the whole night, great night!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]No, you don't, 99.9% of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Eh?
Max, unyeilding gives you a -5% debuff. It is operational the whole time unyeilding is up. If it`s up you get hit 5% more than if it isn`t up. 100% of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]Like Spad, me and moog have told you, that's not how defense works.