Aid self ftw
thePhilosopher Martial Arts/Regen/Fire Scrapper
theRegulator Empathy/Energy/Soul Defender
Total Inertia Ice Blast/Kinetics/Psy Corruptor
Total Inferno Ice Blast/Thermal/Leviathan Corruptor
Fire tanks have heavier end use and have less defense vs psionics as they have no +HP power
Only a percentage of rikti have psi damage
Most scrappers do significantly less damage against a large percentage of the opposition (including Rikti)
I think tanks are pretty nicely balanced at the minute (other than Granite)
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I don't see the Rikti doing that much in the way of Psi damage. Only a few seem to have psi attacks that I have seen.
Anyway; Psi is always going to be the tanks main enemy, this is not going to change.
For non-S/L damage then a mixture of resistance and defence is needed. And good positioning with Invulnerability can be key.
With good defence and some backup from the team an Inv/ tank can tank for an 8 persion team without too much trouble. (As long as Mother Mayhem isn't in the area)
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Fire tanks have heavier end use and have less defense vs psionics as they have no +HP power
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I never played a Fire so can`t really comment.
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Only a percentage of rikti have psi damage
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I have only either done the raids or soloed. In solo, I DO get hit hard, though I always win. But if I was being hit by a full mob (as in 8 team) and I was aggroing I`m not sure Ide last long.
I actually dont mind that as such. Psionics was always meant to be the weakness for Invul Tanks.
It`s just that now, with my resists shot to bits, and all the other ways to bring a tank down, it seems that half the time I`m playing to the Tanks potential. The other half I`m not and I think that division is too stark.
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Most scrappers do significantly less damage against a large percentage of the opposition (including Rikti)
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Howso?
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I think tanks are pretty nicely balanced at the minute (other than Granite)
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Well, I don`t but I`m trying to gain support. I take it you arent gonna jump on, which is your perogative.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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<QR>
I don't see the Rikti doing that much in the way of Psi damage. Only a few seem to have psi attacks that I have seen.
Anyway; Psi is always going to be the tanks main enemy, this is not going to change.
For non-S/L damage then a mixture of resistance and defence is needed. And good positioning with Invulnerability can be key.
With good defence and some backup from the team an Inv/ tank can tank for an 8 persion team without too much trouble. (As long as Mother Mayhem isn't in the area)
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I dont believe you can Tank against non S/L in anyway near the way you can against S/L itself. How can you? You`re asking everything in sight to hit you and you`re vulnerable to the damage you take.
I`m not saying that I can`t change tactics to win the day. I can and do.
I`m saying, why should my Tank have to face opposition time and again, with my primary virtually crippled when no other AT (that I know of ) has to do the same?
Don`t forget, this is our primary we're discussing. So taking an invul scrapper as an example, the scenario isnt as painful for him because his primary is fine. (Not to mention he`s not drawing as much firepower his way either.)
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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This seems oddly familiar.
All I can assume is that you have trouble dealing with Psi damage (As all non-stone tanks do) and you don't like it.
As for Energies & Elements, Invulnerability can get 15%ish DEF and 30%ish RES to them. This is comparable (in a very unscientific manner) to 60%ish RES (That is, taking 40% of the damage hurled at you).
I really don't see the problem.
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This seems oddly familiar
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Bloody hell! You a detective in your other life? 
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As for Energies & Elements, Invulnerability can get 15%ish DEF and 30%ish RES to them. This is comparable (in a very unscientific manner) to 60%ish RES (That is, taking 40% of the damage hurled at you).
I really don't see the problem.
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How do you get those levels?
I`m only aware of about about 12% resists. I think it`s 10% energy and 12% neg. Am I wrong?
60% resists? Can you let me know how that breaks down? That`s almost the levels we used to have back in the day.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
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Unyielding gives 15.5%ish and Resist Energies/Elements gives 11.5% ish (With SO/IOs) - so 27%.
All things being equal, which they rarely are, 1 DEF = 2 RES. Therefore, 15% DEF is equal to 30% RES, plus the 30%ish RES from the above gives you 60%. This means that, on average, you will take around 40% of the damage directed at you.
As I said, it's far from perfectly accurate, but it's close enough for an approximation.
A better way to look at it might be to look at the chance of taking (With E/N) 70% of the damage (30% RES) is 35% vs an even level minion. So in theory you'd be taking 45.5% of the damage, not 40%. Even so, it's not bad - by comparison, S/L is around 22% in the same situation (OK, it's twice as much, but it's not *that* bad, all things considered).
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I dont believe you can Tank against non S/L in anyway near the way you can against S/L itself.
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Of course not, and I didn't say that.
The strong point of the Inv/ tank is the massive resistance to S/L damage, which allows you to almost ignore all enemies which do that damage type.
Against everything else you have to use tactics and play smart.
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I`m not saying that I can`t change tactics to win the day. I can and do.
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Then what's the problem?
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I`m saying, why should my Tank have to face opposition time and again, with my primary virtually crippled when no other AT (that I know of ) has to do the same?
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Crippled?
It certainly isn't. (IMO of course)
My Inv tank can and has tanked for 8 player teams, (including the States TF) and recently soloed through several of the new Rikti EBs and missions.
And I am really not seeing your problem here.
Edit:
I'm getting some serious Déjà vu from this thread..
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I`m saying, why should my Tank have to face opposition time and again, with my primary virtually crippled when no other AT (that I know of ) has to do the same?
[/ QUOTE ]Take a Dark/ scrapper or /Dark defender against banished pantheon. Or a Mind/ controller, Dark/ defender or /dark corr/MM against nemesis. Or any elec blast/rad blast character against DE crystals (Or any def based character for that matter).
Most sets have a weakness, invul tanks are nothing special.
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I`m saying, why should my Tank have to face opposition time and again, with my primary virtually crippled when no other AT (that I know of ) has to do the same?
[/ QUOTE ]Take a Dark/ scrapper or /Dark defender against banished pantheon. Or a Mind/ controller, Dark/ defender or /dark corr/MM against nemesis. Or any elec blast/rad blast character against DE crystals (Or any def based character for that matter).
Most sets have a weakness, invul tanks are nothing special.
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Max, the banished pantheon? The Nemesis? These are one off opponents. Even when Tanks were at their best we had those.
Besides, Scrappers don`t have to take damage the way we do.
And the crystals hurt Tanks too.
A Tankers damage is mediocre at best. We cant (generally) AOE. So if we can`t take the damage offered to us then in what way do we match the other team members who are functioning fully?
That`s the point im really making. And yes Ive made it before.
It`s all well and good saying we can be buffed, but any AT (most of whom have higher damage trhan we do) can be buffed too.
So again I ask, in what way are we equal to the other members of the team if we can`t do our proper jobs: ie get into the front lines, stand toe to toe with the toughest bad guys and take the damage? We may perform well. We may contribute. But without our ability to withstand the damage we haven`t got anything going for us.
And these days there are more and more scenarios where that occurs.
On the USA boards, the current cry is to drop the -5 debuff on unyeilding. Would that help us? Don`t know but we take 5% more damage than we should and 5% of a lot I guess builds up. Maybe that`s an answer.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
I dont see the problem myself. Nearly every enemy does at least some Smash / Lethal damage, including Rikti, and Invun tanks get stupid levels of Smash / Lethal protection.
I have two concerns with tanks:
1. The occassional mission with all psionic damage (Im thinking of some Praetorian Arc missions). These are very rare, but non stone tanks (i suppose ice tanks have some protection with CE) are pretty much relegated to high HP, low damage scrappers. I.e. are deadweight.
2. Granite is over-powered.
IMO all other tanks are balanced. Ice gets superior aggro management (but runs the risk of unlucky streaks), Fire gets superior damage (but is the least resilient), Invun gets incredible S/L resistance (but is less resilient to everything else), and Stone,... well... yes, Granite Armour needs a serious look at (feirce stare at devs).
I really cant see the problem. Having played all armours bar stone they all feel pretty balanced - some are weaker in some situations, some are stronger, and all have a slightly different feel, but thats how it should be.
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Max, the banished pantheon? The Nemesis? These are one off opponents.
[/ QUOTE ]So are rikti.
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Even when Tanks were at their best we had those.
[/ QUOTE ] And so did we have foes that deal psi damage.
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Besides, Scrappers don`t have to take damage the way we do.
[/ QUOTE ] Who said anything about taking damage? I was referring to power effectiviness against certain groups with certain powersets.
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On the USA boards, the current cry is to drop the -5 debuff on unyeilding. Would that help us? Don`t know but we take 5% more damage than we should and 5% of a lot I guess builds up. Maybe that`s an answer.
[/ QUOTE ]-5% defense != 5% more damage taken. In some situations, it won't change incoming damage at all, but on the other extreme, it can increase it by 100%.
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A Tankers damage is mediocre at best. We cant (generally) AOE.
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Yes, this is by design. The Scrappers and the Blasters are the damage dealers and tank damage will always pale by comparison.
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So if we can`t take the damage offered to us then in what way do we match the other team members who are functioning fully?
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The tank benefits the team by being able to take way more damage than any other AT and by being able to focus enemy fire upon themselves.
This an Inv/ tank can most certainly do.
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That`s the point im really making. And yes Ive made it before.
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I think I've missed your point... 
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So again I ask, in what way are we equal to the other members of the team if we can`t do our proper jobs: ie get into the front lines, stand toe to toe with the toughest bad guys and take the damage? We may perform well. We may contribute. But without our ability to withstand the damage we haven`t got anything going for us.
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You are going to have to provide evidence that tanks are unable to fulfill their role.
This you have failed to do so far.
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On the USA boards, the current cry is to drop the -5 debuff on unyeilding. Would that help us? Don`t know but we take 5% more damage than we should and 5% of a lot I guess builds up. Maybe that`s an answer.
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Defense does not work that way.
The cry for the -5% on Unyielding has been going pretty much since they stopped it rooting you. I suspect it will continue for a while yet.
Without question, Tankers can take much more damage and hold far more aggro than any other AT. Spad (Ice/Fire) can tank pretty much anything, the only things I ever really struggle with are Vanguard, with their frankly ludicrous DEF debuffs and anything with a large ACC/ToHit bonus (Some Praetorians, DE Quartz, etc).
I know Invulnerability has a harder time against non-S/L mobs, as it's supposed to, but in all the teams I've played with I really haven't seen anything that suggests they're underpowered relative to the other Tanker Primaries.
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On the USA boards, the current cry is to drop the -5 debuff on unyeilding. Would that help us? Don`t know but we take 5% more damage than we should and 5% of a lot I guess builds up. Maybe that`s an answer.
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Defense does not work that way.
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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise. Back when we were invulnerable that had a relevence. Now it doesn`t.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]No, you don't, 99.9% of the time.
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Defense does not work that way.
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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise. Back when we were invulnerable that had a relevence. Now it doesn`t.
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'-5% defense' not equal to 'hit 5% more'
Defense does not work the way you seem to think it does.
There are a few good guides on the subject about. You should look one up.
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The cry for the -5% on Unyielding has been going pretty much since they stopped it rooting you. I suspect it will continue for a while yet.
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I actually don`t remember too many complaints until I5 came along. After all, I think qwe could all see its logic. But, after ED, when we had been cut down so dramatically, what on earth does it do for anyone ?
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I know Invulnerability has a harder time against non-S/L mobs, as it's supposed to,
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Spad- exactly why is it supposed to?
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but in all the teams I've played with I really haven't seen anything that suggests they're underpowered relative to the other Tanker Primaries.
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I never played another type of Tank so I can`t comment. BUT if I`m up against, for just one example, COT, then however well i play, I`m just filling in the numbers because I can`t take too much damage and I can`t hit as hard as other damage dealers.
I can tank a bit, with dull health, unstoppable etc, but it`s a minor contribution compared to when I am up against S/L. Don`t take me out of context here. I play fine. But I am aware that in these instances my primary powerset in greatly broken and the purpose of my existance is greatly invalidated, cause I just cant hold onto the same level of aggro.
Like a defender who, every few missions, can only fire off a limited amount of buffs and heals. Except defenders are not put in that position and we are.
What other AT is in that position?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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I know Invulnerability has a harder time against non-S/L mobs, as it's supposed to,
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Spad- exactly why is it supposed to?
[/ QUOTE ]Because it's the best against S/L mobs.
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I never played another type of Tank so I can`t comment. BUT if I`m up against, for just one example, COT, then however well i play, I`m just filling in the numbers because I can`t take too much damage and I can`t hit as hard as other damage dealers.
[/ QUOTE ] I certainly don't have problems like that with either my ice (L49) or invul (L24) tanks.
Then again, if I'm tanking for a large team, I usually have at least one support char to help me out.
Invulnerability is supposed to suffer vs non-S/L because of its huge S/L resists. Just as Fire suffers vs Cold and Ice suffers vs Fire (Though don't get me started on the imbalance there).
WRT Unyielding.
Vs an even level minion attacking 100 times. If you had 10% DEF and Unyielding took away 5%, you would go from being hit 40 times to being hit 45 times - an increase of 12.5%.
If you had 45% DEF and Unyielding took away 5% you'd go from being hit 5 times to being hit 10 times, an increase of 100%.
And again (I can't believe I'm having to say it again) the primary function of a tank is not merely to take damage, it is to manage aggro.
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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]No, you don't, 99.9% of the time.
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Eh?
Max, unyeilding gives you a -5% debuff. It is operational the whole time unyeilding is up. If it`s up you get hit 5% more than if it isn`t up. 100% of the time.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]No, you don't, 99.9% of the time.
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Eh?
Max, unyeilding gives you a -5% debuff. It is operational the whole time unyeilding is up. If it`s up you get hit 5% more than if it isn`t up. 100% of the time.
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See my previous post. Reducing your defence by 5% does not equate to being hit 5% more often.
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Invulnerability is supposed to suffer vs non-S/L because of its huge S/L resists. Just as Fire suffers vs Cold and Ice suffers vs Fire (Though don't get me started on the imbalance there).
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First off there isa lot less fire and cold in the game than overall energies. Second, well you answered that yourself.
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you'd go from being hit 5 times to being hit 10 times, an increase of 100%.
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Right. And, these days there is no justification for that extra penalty.
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And again (I can't believe I'm having to say it again) the primary function of a tank is not merely to take damage, it is to manage aggro.
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I know what it`s for but correct me if i`m wrong here but if im managing aggro do they not then attack me? And if they are attacking me am I not taking damage?
So can I aggro someone without taking damage?
Or are they, semantics aside, one and the same thing?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
As a Tanker, I taunt and use guantlet to take the damage and protect the team.
It`s what I do.
My primary is Invulnerability and given it is my primary, it should be dominant to my secondary, damage.
Against S/L it is.
Against everything else it simply isn`t. Particularily now, with the psionic damge of the Rikti, which covers the entire of issue 10.
I am not yet fully IOed (with the sets I mean) but currently cannot withstand 8 team damage for long if the damage is anything other than S/L.
So, in those senarios I don`t always taunt.
I`ve come to the conclusion that it just isn`t balanced that the invul primary is so handicapped throughout an increasing part of the game.
After all, every other set can do their role in a team with 100% of their potential powers fully active.
Imagine, for instance, a scrapper who, against about a third of the opposition, only hit half as hard. Or a defender whos heals were only half as effective as they could be in other circumstances. That`s the scenario we have.
Prior to I5, Tankers main vulnerability was psionics, which was fine because we were pretty much invulnerable to anything else.
Thats not the case anymore, yet we still have our old restrictions , weakness v psionics, -5% debuff on unyielding, heavy endurance usage.
I would like to use this thread to voice our sincere discontent and request that we get looked at and treated as other ATs are.
Is anyone with me here?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...