Mindset E
it depends on the combination of Primary and Secondary.
All the primaries are different since they at various degrees trade Survivability for Damage dealing.
Stone is high on survivability but low on damage. Fire is the opposite, lower on survivability but higher on damage.
Ice and Invulnerability are somewhere in between.
When you then pick your other powers including secondaries you have the choice to increase your defensive abilities (what most people refer to as "True tanking") or increase your offensive capabilites (aka "Scranking")
The stone, who is already a very defensive set, will then have a higher threshold to overcome if you want to make it a offensive set. Therefore, its much easier and more suitable to simply improve on the strong points and become a Bastion on the battlefield, the ultimate Survivor, last man standing.
Fires strong point is as we have said that it can deal damage very well. But what it lacks is survivability. And since damagedealing in tanks is looked down upon these tanks try to make up for their shortcomings and still be quite pissy "tankers" instead of actually improving what theyre good at.
Ice and Invuln are either way, theyre just as suited to defensive build as offensive, without any natural drawback or inclination towards either type of play. They can be built pretty offensively and still retain a modest amount of survibality to satisfy the "true tanking" camp as well as be built as defensively as it can be.
My and some others biggest problem is with comments like:
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It may give you more damage... it will certainly make you more soloable. But it will also make you a worse tank.
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A "worse" tank...
we clearly see what kind of tank Cognito think is best..
Lets all just rank the different tanks from the "best" to the "worst"...
It makes for a ugly elitism where some will always be better than others.. Something that makes up for the darkest chapter in human history.
Humans are above animals, Ubermenschen and Untermenschen, Master and slave.
Me, im a believer in "different."
We are not always equal.. lord knows ive met enough stupid people, but we can be differently skilled or talented.
Just because im smart, educated, artistic or rich does not give me the freedom to look down on anyone else.
Same thing with the Tanker, I dont believe you can measure how good a tanker is on how high survivability he has, I have seen plenty enough Stone tankers still standing when the rest of the team is wiped. Theyre still crappy tanks because they evidently wasnt able to manage all the aggro.
Then theres tanks who have no trouble holding aggro... its surviving it thats the problem. so clearly you cant rate how good a tanker is by aggroholding.
A good tank is the one who can walk the tightrope between gathering just the right amount of aggro and remain standing.
This has nothing to do with "taunt" other by being yet another tool to help you achieve this goal.
Some people swear by it, other hate it, and the rest is in-between meaning it has its uses.
Myself i think it depends on the primary.
Id never trust a stone tank without it.. they better have that power on auto.. and i wouldnt mind provoke to.
For a ice or invulnerable i would appreciate if they had it, but wouldnt hold it agains them if they skipped it.
For a Fire i would only suggest them to use it to pull with or to save a team member who is in trouble if ever.
My advice would be, if your set has a natural affinity for a certain kind of play, use it, improve it, excel at it. Dont try to be something your not supposed to be.
This is what makes you a better tanker.. everthing else just makes you a different tanker.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
Just because you have taunt it doesnt make you a better tanker than one without. All it does do is limit your tanking abilities. Differing choices of powersets do cause a varying requirement for taunt as maurdecay says, i think its a fair comment i have made. You are a tanker without taunt, you are a tanker the moment you step out with your one shield and one attack but you will have varying abilities regarding taunt control as to what your tanker is really capable of doing.
What if you faced a high enough Marauder that could one hit you with his knockout blow? Now think he is superstrength, think of all the superstrength attacks, you dont want to give him an opportunity to use that knockout blow and any of his other attacks in succession will wipe you and no defender can do a thing about it so make him use hurl. Its not as great a damaging attack as knockout blow and he has nothing to chain, taunt him from afar and make him have to hurl a rock at you every 8 seconds, in 8 seconds a heal can be recharged more easily and with hurl he can not one hit you. What else does he have? He has footstomp now your upclose and the scrappers are up close and some blapper is too "wham!" they are dead because he had reason to use it and then thats followed by the knockout blow that hits you and you are dead. But not if you taunted from afar. He would only have eyes for you (providing no scrapper taunts) and he wouldnt dream of using that footstomp because he cant get you with it. This is how i look at all AVs almost, they have the same powerssets but with additional signature moves. These powersets of theirs does more damage. Its not the amount of damage you need to do you worry about its the amount of damage they do and you have to make them do as less damage to anyone and yourself as a tanker. You dont always have to kite, you can change the way you deal with AVs with different defenders as they work differently and have varying effects, but taunt if needed is also there to limit what an AV is likely to do.
Dont tank standing in 30ft in front of the rest of the team against mynx either she has a good reason to use shockwave and if she is high enough who would that one hit? The only person keeping the team alive perhaps? AVs are special in resistance and regen and damage, i have never really found them that special in range and recharge.
With knowledge and cooperation you dont have to be a tanker who says we need a stonetank! we need a rad! we need a dark! its psionic get a dark armoured scrapper! you can try to find other ways to counter the problems and try to use the limitations of their powersets against them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
By my definition, there is a scale of tanking and that is
Survivability + Aggromagentism
And thats it.
Its the same as saying there is a scale of healing which is
Heal HP per second
Or a scale of blasting which is
Damage per second.
So yes, I stand by my opinion that taking taunt over an attack will make you a "worse" tank. Will it make you a worse toon? no. Will I not team with you? no. Is it less fun? no (Probably more fun for you to be honest).
A lot of people are saying they have a mindset which is not A or not B. A common thread is it people without taunt. Now I appreciate this was somewhat artificial and there is a spectrum between A and B. I dont think there is a "third way", although there is a compromise somewhere in the middle.
I'll say this. Im a total mindset A. If somebody dies on the team. It better be me first. Anything else and Im a failure as a tank. I wont LOOK to die, but Im sure as hell nobody else is going to die. And I think that attitude is what gets me a lot of gratitude [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].
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So yes, I stand by my opinion that taking taunt over an attack will make you a "worse" tank.
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Please tell me you meant that taking an attack over taunt would... or else I think I'm as lost as a fart would be in a jacuzzi [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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So yes, I stand by my opinion that taking taunt over an attack will make you a "worse" tank.
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Please tell me you meant that taking an attack over taunt would... or else I think I'm as lost as a fart would be in a jacuzzi [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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Mon Pleasure...
I meant to say taking an ATTACK over a TAUNT will make you a worse "tank". [Not necessarily toon].
Mumble mumble... rotten cold... mumble mumble... cant sleep... mumble mumble... cant Strink Thrait... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
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a lot...
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I hear ya. basically what youre saying is that, while taunt may be just another tool in the toolbox or weapon in the arsenal.. it just happens to be such a incredible versatile tool or weapon that it just doenst make sense not to take it.
It is without doubt that the presented scenarios shows the usefulness of taunt. Without taunt one would have to come up with different tactics to solve the problem.
This is not the issue.
The problem is the lack of respect towards tauntless tanks from the taunt-camp. They are told that they are "bad" and "careless" and "not fulfilling their potential".
Should even the tauntless tanker present their experience of tanking and that they never recieved any complaints and did pretty well they are met with scepticism. Their knowledge and experience disregarded and refused to be taken seriously.
This is what set me off and makes me play the devils advocate in this matter, the inability and refusal to accept and respect someone elses style and just depreciatory proclaim them "Scrankers", barring them from the "Gentlemans Club of Proper Tanking"
It is nothing short of Elitism, something i find despicable.
I can play a tanker with taunt.
I can play a tanker without taunt.
I overcome the problem.
I find the solution.
I dont rely on a crutch.
I use the tools at my disposal.
If for some reason I am unable to use a tool, I use another.
I achieve my purposes.
I tank.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
I have been looking at a build based solely on holding aggro. It is great for holding aggro, and has a good survivability. However it has only one attack (if you discount the damage aura) until level 28.
From the point of view of doing a tankers 'job' of holding aggro it is fantastic... but would I be happy playing a character that is only concerned with running round playing tag? NO.
So from one point of view this tanker is 'better' as it holds aggro better (arguably) but from what I consider the most important aspect, playability, it is by far worse.
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hmm, as long as you are fast enough (slotted swift/hurdle are playing with a kinetics [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) then this works for almost any tank... even better if you have some AOEs to use too...
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there is no substitute for taunt, its autohit, costs nothing, takes no risks and you dont have to wait for upto 2 seconds for a taunt pulse tick over. Sure debuffs are aggro gainers but so is peoples damage. Your gauntlet can miss and your taunt pulse can be late added to the run over to anywhere.
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I deliberatly didn't mention Taunt as I wasn't saying if this was better or worse than having taunt... just that it's possible for a tank with swift/hurdle whatever slotted to hold aggro by running about.... if they wanted to do it that way.
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a lot...
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I hear ya. basically what youre saying is that, while taunt may be just another tool in the toolbox or weapon in the arsenal.. it just happens to be such a incredible versatile tool or weapon that it just doenst make sense not to take it.
It is without doubt that the presented scenarios shows the usefulness of taunt. Without taunt one would have to come up with different tactics to solve the problem.
This is not the issue.
The problem is the lack of respect towards tauntless tanks from the taunt-camp. They are told that they are "bad" and "careless" and "not fulfilling their potential".
Should even the tauntless tanker present their experience of tanking and that they never recieved any complaints and did pretty well they are met with scepticism. Their knowledge and experience disregarded and refused to be taken seriously.
This is what set me off and makes me play the devils advocate in this matter, the inability and refusal to accept and respect someone elses style and just depreciatory proclaim them "Scrankers", barring them from the "Gentlemans Club of Proper Tanking"
It is nothing short of Elitism, something i find despicable.
I can play a tanker with taunt.
I can play a tanker without taunt.
I overcome the problem.
I find the solution.
I dont rely on a crutch.
I use the tools at my disposal.
If for some reason I am unable to use a tool, I use another.
I achieve my purposes.
I tank.
[/ QUOTE ]5 Imaginary stars for you [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
If you see a Stalker without AS what would you say?
If you see a Controller without his ST hold what whould you say?
If you see a Scrapper without a proper attack chain what would you say?
They're playing the game how they like, but their toons aren't functional as they could, because they left important stuff out.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Aggro aura doesn't do much to help the teammate who's just picked up a stray mob and is rapidly turning a horrible shade of orange. A quick taunt usually sorts that problem out. Sure, you might want to move and rely on your aura or a punchvoke, assuming you get there in time, to recapture the aggro of that stray mob, but do you really want to reposition a whole group of mobs and take them closer to the poor squishy?
I constantly keep an eye on the team's health bars and taunt whenever I see anyone picking up stray aggro they can't handle. For me it's never really been a serious consideration as to whether taunt was worth having or not.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Id agree with you there MaX,
But I would say that taunt is certainly the defining power of the secondary set.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Aggro cap is 17, does your aura constantly always taunt 17?
No its impossible.
It cant do better than 10.
Gauntlet is something that is in fact unreliable.
Taunt is something that is reliable.
A tanker with taunt and aura is the most potentially reliable tank there is.
I can probably steal aggro of any icetank without taunt with any of my squishie toons and get my self killed, the ones with taunt i struggle with, but i do try.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Aggro cap is 17, does your aura constantly always taunt 17?
No its impossible.
It cant do better than 10.
[/ QUOTE ]It can, as I've stated previously in this thread.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Aggro cap is 17, does your aura constantly always taunt 17?
No its impossible.
It cant do better than 10.
[/ QUOTE ]It can, as I've stated previously in this thread.
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it cant
maximillian you are wrong
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I can probably steal aggro of any icetank without taunt with any of my squishie toons and get my self killed, the ones with taunt i struggle with, but i do try.
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Hehe, i love it when people try to steal aggro off my defiant ice tank. CE - check, Taunt - check, 2 aoes with dot - check. PBAOE damage aura - check [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
I'm pretty certain that the only way anyone can get aggro is by choosing an entirely different spawn [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
As far as the OP goes, I have two ice tanks. Both have taunt and CE by level 10. Soloing the /fire is a lot more pleasant than the /ss, due entirely to combustion, but the SS will get over the hill eventually.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Aggro cap is 17, does your aura constantly always taunt 17?
No its impossible.
It cant do better than 10.
[/ QUOTE ]It can, as I've stated previously in this thread.
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it cant
maximillian you are wrong
[/ QUOTE ]First of all, the name is MaXimillion, not maximillian.
Secondly, while the target limit at one tick is 10, if you move around you can keep 17 people aggroed just with your aura.
I love this thread. 17 pages and still no conclusion in sight [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
So, with that in mind. Here's a hypothetical situation;
Player X rolls two tanks. He builds them identically, same powersets, same slots, everything EXCEPT one has taunt (Tank A), and one doesn't (Tank B).
So, we've eliminated player skill from the equation, along with powerset differences. The question is simply this; which out of the two tanks would be better at holding agro?
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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I love this thread. 17 pages and still no conclusion in sight [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
So, with that in mind. Here's a hypothetical situation;
Player X rolls two tanks. He builds them identically, same powersets, same slots, everything EXCEPT one has taunt (Tank A), and one doesn't (Tank B).
So, we've eliminated player skill from the equation, along with powerset differences. The question is simply this; which out of the two tanks would be better at holding agro?
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The taunting one, no doubt.
The AVs now ignore your threat level and Punchvoke or the Taunt Aura have a FAR shorter duration than what's needed to keep them on you.
Even if this is the only reason, it's far more than enough to say that the toon with Taunt is BETTER at holding aggro for a matter of F_A_C_T.
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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.
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Aggro cap is 17, does your aura constantly always taunt 17?
No its impossible.
It cant do better than 10.
[/ QUOTE ]It can, as I've stated previously in this thread.
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it cant
maximillian you are wrong
[/ QUOTE ]First of all, the name is MaXimillion, not maximillian.
Secondly, while the target limit at one tick is 10, if you move around you can keep 17 people aggroed just with your aura.
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As i have said you can not constantly keep 17 foes taunted with an aura. You would need to slot 3 taunt durations to effect 10 on one tick for as long as possible, while jump to the others and effect the other 7, then jump back and reaffect the first 10. Now how long does 3 taunt durations last? Its hard to measure, but on all my tanks i have tried. It would be nice if the base taunt duration was enough on its on to last the duration between ticks but it isnt. You need at least 1 taunt duration to cover the gap between taunt pulses. Which means with 3 taunt durations it would take you from the 1st taunt pulse to half way between the 2nd and 3rd taunt pulse then, so basically it wouldnt happen and so you have a window of foes not effected by taunt.
You get this with 3 slotted aura for taunt
Taunt pulse - first set foes have a taunt duration
You jump to second set of foes
2nd taunt pulse - second set of foes have a taunt duration
You jump to first set of foes on whom the taunt duration will run out. Then with the 3rd taunt pulse you reclaim the first set and jump to the 2nd set who will have taunt worn off before the 4th taunt pulse reclaims them.
Thats not constantly always taunted with an aura.
With a tanks aura unslotted for taunt i can pull a foe on the outer perimeter of the aura and then the foe could kill me. Because the aura has a small window of no taunt a foe on the perimeter is easier to remove than a foe next to the tank. Now say you're just using an aura to affect 2 groups you will leave a bigger window of taunt duration on both groups than a tanker whose aura is unslotted for taunt on 1 group.
Effects of your gauntlet especially icicles if they hit will cover everything so all foes, not will, but could remain taunted throughout what you do. I am not saying how you tank wouldnt work and cant keep aggro without taunt because you can most of the time.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I love this thread. 17 pages and still no conclusion in sight [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
So, with that in mind. Here's a hypothetical situation;
Player X rolls two tanks. He builds them identically, same powersets, same slots, everything EXCEPT one has taunt (Tank A), and one doesn't (Tank B).
So, we've eliminated player skill from the equation, along with powerset differences. The question is simply this; which out of the two tanks would be better at holding agro?
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The taunting one, no doubt.
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Unless the taunting one never uses taunt.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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Unless the taunting one never uses taunt.
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Fogging the issue?
Assume he does.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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I love this thread. 17 pages and still no conclusion in sight [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
So, with that in mind. Here's a hypothetical situation;
Player X rolls two tanks. He builds them identically, same powersets, same slots, everything EXCEPT one has taunt (Tank A), and one doesn't (Tank B).
So, we've eliminated player skill from the equation, along with powerset differences. The question is simply this; which out of the two tanks would be better at holding agro?
[/ QUOTE ]The taunting one, of course, I doubt anybody thinks otherwise.
However, the real question is, does Tank B hold aggro well enough?
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Er... taunt IS a secondary set? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Taking taunt over an attack WILL make you a worse tanker.
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I'm guessing that is a freudian error - admit it! You're a wannabee scranker! :P