Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.
i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.
i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tank with taunt: Has OPTION of using taunt to control amount of aggro.
Tank without taunt: Is out of options....
Im sorry, its technically impossible to be a better tank without taunt, providing you dont take it in lieu of a defence in which case it is arguable. But a tank with taunt and all his defence powers is always going to be a better tank than a tank with all his defence powers and no taunt. Its just not a debate it my book.
A tank without taunt may be a better SCRANKER, but not a better tank. Not even an equal tank.
And level 15 is not really representative of most of the game. The jounrney from level 22 to level 50 is probbaaly 95% of your game time and its when tanks get single origins and start to become super tough.
[ QUOTE ]
Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.
i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
On a team with 2 tanks taunt control can get messy and taunt pulls from any tanks aura you will need 1 appointed lead tank and no other tank should pass the lead tank and certainly should allow for herding, then the second tank after the herding process is complete can using taunt steal 5 from the aura, the tanks should never be as close to eachother whereby the tanks auras are cusping because the weaker tanker may be the better aggroer.
I dont like other tanks in team its not upto any debate with me its pretty much not happening as i may not like the use of the other tanks taunt control or how they go about missions, whatever they do i may have little say and end up dead.
Saying i wont use taunt is a bit feeble he can use it to take 5 atleast as long as his aura dont cusp with the other tanks he shouldnt take anymore for sure especially if he is at a distance where gauntlet cant add more to him.
A tanks there for taunt contol and the teams there to allow for that to be adequately established and to help keep the tanker alive.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.
i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
i tanked positron with taunt and cavern trial, even my scrappers "scranked" it since ED and even in this issue. Less deaths involved. i couldnt possibly show up to a tf without taunt on any tank OR scrapper.
That tank was lovely he didnt build right because he is new. I was New Dawn on that TF and to be fair to all that really wasnt the most balanced team and it wasnt the most, well whoever that Rad was who turns around saying sorry i was doodling when the tanks ran in and saw no debuff zones I couldnt judge any tank or any powerset in such a team, it just wasnt full of vigilant/experienced players. If i was tanking for that team i would of had kittens at certain points but there is a lot less air about me than anyone i know.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
oh yes, lol, i remember i told you it was kind of hard to herd with only gauntlet [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
I also remember saying that:
"anyone in front of me isnt falling back"
This week were doing synapse, I will have more tools at my disposal (like invincibility and a AoE attack) if youre looking for a opportunity to revaluation.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.
i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tank with taunt: Has OPTION of using taunt to control amount of aggro.
Tank without taunt: Is out of options....
Im sorry, its technically impossible to be a better tank without taunt, providing you dont take it in lieu of a defence in which case it is arguable. But a tank with taunt and all his defence powers is always going to be a better tank than a tank with all his defence powers and no taunt. Its just not a debate it my book.
A tank without taunt may be a better SCRANKER, but not a better tank. Not even an equal tank.
And level 15 is not really representative of most of the game. The jounrney from level 22 to level 50 is probbaaly 95% of your game time and its when tanks get single origins and start to become super tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
At level 15 a Ice tank has a aura that slows and debuffs mobs damage.. Stone immobilizes the mobs, fire damages the mobs around them, killing them off faster.
Invulnerability has nothing of the kind, its defences are slightly better than its scrapper counterpart. So hell yes, its better off scranking.
Give me a stone, ice or even fire and ill take taunt at level 10. Give me a empath whos sole purpose is to heal me and Ill take it at that level with a invulnerable tank.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
Stone, Ice, and Fire all have an aura at low levels that, if anything, would "allow" them to be effective aggro grabbers without taunt.
Invunravility is therefore the one tanker primary that arguably MUST take taunt at level 10 unless it wants to be a dead weight to a team, acting as as underpowered scrapper. Thanks, but no thanks.
And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level. Thats life; sets have weaknesses and strengths, but I dont see how you can argue that Invun tanks are somehow gimped at low levels. Against clockwork and outcasts... possibly... but put them against trolls for instance and they will leave the other sets standing.
I cant see how one can say that Invun is the one set that shouldnt take taunt. Its the one set that must. What can a level 1-17 tank without taunt add to a team other than taking the alpha strike and then acting as a half mast scrapper? why not just get a scrapper?
Because the scrapper would be dead after the alpha strike? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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I cant see how one can say that Invun is the one set that shouldnt take taunt. Its the one set that must. What can a level 1-17 tank without taunt add to a team other than taking the alpha strike and then acting as a half mast scrapper? why not just get a scrapper?
[/ QUOTE ]Keep aggro with punchvoke. Maybe not the whole spawn, but the foes that would be most dangerous for the team.
Sorry guys, I cant see a tank without an aura or taunt puling his weight - even a skilled /fire tank with a shed load of AoE. It aint gonna happen.
Not saying I wouldnt team with one, but heh we all know whos just ticking along until level 18 heh? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
With regards to alpha - technically the whole team should have a co-ordinated approach to spread the alpha. This is actually far more efficient in terms of mopping up damage with heals (via AoE) than a scrapper dive. So no big shakes for the tank there (at least at the levels we are talking about).
And yep, Gauntlet will keep big bad boss of the group. But to be honest, so would a high damage scrapper. Admiteddly a skilled tanker with a few AoE attacks and rapid rotation can pull a bit MORE of his weight, but he's still swinging the lead as far as I can see.
Not a problem for me - Ill team with anybody (or nealy anybody). Jump kick on a defender? no probs, 3 travel pools? no probs?, Offenders with more attacks than buffs/debuffs? no probs?
Its just something about skrankers in particular that really winds me up somehow - still team with them - but it just really gets under my skin. I guess I have this suspicion that the psychology is "Hey, Ill play a tank, they look hard, they wont get debt"... i.e. "Me first, Team distant second".
I only say this cos that was my first thought when I read the handbook! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level.
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Nah, even against pure smashing/lethal, stone has invulnerability beat. Invulnerable tanks make good scrankers or secondary tank. Fire is a little on the fragile side for primary tanking imho; ice or stone ftw... providing they have taunt [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
And yep, Gauntlet will keep big bad boss of the group. But to be honest, so would a high damage scrapper.
[/ QUOTE ]
"the team runs through the office besieged by the Circle of Thorns. Around the corner stands a group of cultists, they constists of:
1 Ruin mage (boss) level 16
2 energy/force mage (lieutenants) level 16
5-6 minions Archers and spectres also level 16
now, your team has 2 inv/nrg tanks, one with taunt, the other with unyielding.
you then have a AR/dev blaster, a fire/rad 'troller, a katana/SR scrapper and a claws/reg scrapper.
all around level 14-15 due to exemping and SK:ing
which one of these are most suited to take care of the big bad boss? You are only allowed to pick one team member as the other team members will have enough to do to take care of themselves.
BIG HINT: neither of the scrappers have any status protection...
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, even against pure smashing/lethal, stone has invulnerability beat. Invulnerable tanks make good scrankers or secondary tank. Fire is a little on the fragile side for primary tanking imho; ice or stone ftw... providing they have taunt [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree full-heartedly (even on the bit about taunt). At least until level 18 when the INV tank gets invincibility...
thats where he can start keeping larger amount of mobs busy.
It also has excellent status protection which can keep bosses busy.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
I recently joined a PuG, the tank was a Stone/Stone without Taunt, he relied upon mudpots to generate all of his agro and the only thing he managed to keep on him was 3 or 4 minions, 10-15 other foes went straight for the rest of the team - the outcome was a team wipeout - theres no way he could run to us and draw the agro away quick enough.
So no a Tank isn't a proper Tank without taunt, its a key skill required for a Tank to apply his trade.
A tank doesn't need it immediately far from it, a faceplanting tank is of no use to any team and should therefore concentrate on their own survival at first - but post lvl 40, theres simple no excuse for it.
[ QUOTE ]
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And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, even against pure smashing/lethal, stone has invulnerability beat. Invulnerable tanks make good scrankers or secondary tank. Fire is a little on the fragile side for primary tanking imho; ice or stone ftw... providing they have taunt [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
[/ QUOTE ]
Stone is not better than Invun until it gets Granite, where it outpowers everything. But with a -need to hit- taunt aura, severely impaired mobility, and taunt recharging at 1/3 normal speed, I never feel as safe with a granite tank in the team as I do with an invun or ice- personally.
Until granite, Invun does actually outshine Stone (Invunerability gives extra defence for a start! - then there is unyeilding for extra resistance).
In that case, the unyeilding tank.
But would you rather have a tank with unyeilding and taunt, or just unyeilding.
The scenario is deliberately picked with deliberate options to force me to pick your choice! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]
I recently joined a PuG, the tank was a Stone/Stone without Taunt, he relied upon mudpots to generate all of his agro and the only thing he managed to keep on him was 3 or 4 minions, 10-15 other foes went straight for the rest of the team - the outcome was a team wipeout - theres no way he could run to us and draw the agro away quick enough.
So no a Tank isn't a proper Tank without taunt, its a key skill required for a Tank to apply his trade.
[/ QUOTE ]I'd say that basing your conclusion on stone armor is kinda ignorant, since stone is the worst aggro holder.
[ QUOTE ]
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And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, even against pure smashing/lethal, stone has invulnerability beat. Invulnerable tanks make good scrankers or secondary tank. Fire is a little on the fragile side for primary tanking imho; ice or stone ftw... providing they have taunt [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
[/ QUOTE ]
Stone is not better than Invun until it gets Granite, where it outpowers everything. But with a -need to hit- taunt aura, severely impaired mobility, and taunt recharging at 1/3 normal speed, I never feel as safe with a granite tank in the team as I do with an invun or ice- personally.
Until granite, Invun does actually outshine Stone (Invunerability gives extra defence for a start! - then there is unyeilding for extra resistance).
[/ QUOTE ]
Before Invincibility a Stone Tank can out perform an Inv tank against S/L. Here I've slotted with 3 DOs.
Inv with RPD, Temp Inv and Unyielding has 55.25% resistance and -5% defence for 50% damage mitigation as the defence penalty makes you take 10% more damage.
The Stone tank with Stone Armour, Rock Armour, Rooted is about 20.8 defence and 16.25% resistance. That's 50% mitigation too, but you also have decent regen, so you are tougher...
However in the levels between 18 and 32, Inv considerably outperforms stone.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say that basing your conclusion on stone armor is kinda ignorant, since stone is the worst aggro holder.
[/ QUOTE ]
That may be true according to the numbers, but tactically it's certainly not. A stone tank can, if given a few seconds without anyone interfering, gather up all the agro in a room and take the punishment without any backup.
A fire tank wouldn't dare and I've never seen an inv tank pull it off. Ice could manage it as well.
Anyway, the point being that the primary is not the only factor at work here. The secondary counts. EM for example only has one AoE attack, stone has 2, the 1st of which, fault, is available at 20th lvl
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
Stone is not better than Invun until it gets Granite, where it outpowers everything. But with a -need to hit- taunt aura, severely impaired mobility, and taunt recharging at 1/3 normal speed, I never feel as safe with a granite tank in the team as I do with an invun or ice- personally.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've not been teaming with the right stone tanks [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] From early on in my stone tank's build I specialised in defence and agro management - to the point where my attacks badly suffered. I'll hold ALL the agro from certainly one spawn and 90% of the agro from 2 with relative ease.
Mobility if not a factor as most tanks are relatively static anyway - you can't go off and chase down stragglers as you'll lose agro of the mobs around you [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Perhaps an inv tanker *could* outperform me if they went for a team build but these days inv seems the build of choice for the scranker.
[ QUOTE ]
Until granite, Invun does actually outshine Stone (Invunerability gives extra defence for a start! - then there is unyeilding for extra resistance).
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but even by 32, you've still got more than half way to go to 50, and that outshining only happens after 18th lvl. So it's only for 14lvls out of the 50 inv can take more abuse than a stone tank.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
In that case, the unyeilding tank.
But would you rather have a tank with unyeilding and taunt, or just unyeilding.
The scenario is deliberately picked with deliberate options to force me to pick your choice! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
[/ QUOTE ]
actaully, the scenario more or less to a 90% degree were the actual makeup of the Positron task force from this weekend, and not something i made up, and as Shannon said, it wasnt exactly the most balanced team for posi either [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
and yes, of course taunt + unyielding would be to be preferred (I have taunt.. just not when exemped down to level 15 [img]/uk/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] )
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say that basing your conclusion on stone armor is kinda ignorant, since stone is the worst aggro holder.
[/ QUOTE ]
That may be true according to the numbers, but tactically it's certainly not. A stone tank can, if given a few seconds without anyone interfering, gather up all the agro in a room and take the punishment without any backup.
[/ QUOTE ]I wasn't talking about taking damage, I was talking about holding aggro, because that's what the person I was replying to had problems with.
[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't talking about taking damage, I was talking about holding aggro, because that's what the person I was replying to had problems with.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know and I don't agree. A tank can't hold ANY agro if he'd dead therefor damage mitigation is a factor, but that's a side issue.
Personally I think the claim is unfounded and would be interested to know what it's based on since I've seen mudpots pull agro off an inv tank.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
Im not saying the scanario is made up, its totally feasible. Im just saying that I could construct a feasible scenario, give you a choice of feasible builds, and given thr right things i give you, pretty much force you to choose what I wanted.
E.g. A man is going to shoot you in the head if you dont give him a 5 pound note. Straight away. And only a five pound note.
You can choose a 50 pound note, a tenner, or a fiver, but only one of these.
What note would you choose?
This choice must mean that its the best thing to have!
[img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 tanks 1 with and 1 without taunt and i never used taunt that much. But then when im in a team I allways go straight 4 the bosses and lieutenants to take the heat off of the other team mates(have had no complantes yet)
Basically it all down to how you tank. Some tank beter with taunt some tank beter without.
[/ QUOTE ]
How on earth can you tank better WITHOUT taunt?
Thats like saying an empath heals better without heal other!