My point is that you said that a high damage scrapper would work just as effectively as a tank to keep bosses of the remainder of a team.
All i did was give a example of a actual event (and not a hypothetical one) where you were proven wrong.
Some tanks are better equipped to deal with a horde of minions, other tanks are better suited to tank the heavy hitters of the mobs. The latter of these two tanks have less use of Taunt than the former. Notice that i said he has "less" use for it, not that its useless.. just so much less useful that it can be skipped without to much loss of efficiency.
Some would argue that boss killing is the task of scrappers because of their high damage to kill of the boss/elite boss/AV quickly. I dont necessarily agree with this. In fact, i see scrappers as minion killers, bouncing between mobs like a pinball.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
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I recently joined a PuG, the tank was a Stone/Stone without Taunt, he relied upon mudpots to generate all of his agro and the only thing he managed to keep on him was 3 or 4 minions, 10-15 other foes went straight for the rest of the team - the outcome was a team wipeout - theres no way he could run to us and draw the agro away quick enough.
So no a Tank isn't a proper Tank without taunt, its a key skill required for a Tank to apply his trade.
[/ QUOTE ]I'd say that basing your conclusion on stone armor is kinda ignorant, since stone is the worst aggro holder.
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Taunt is necessary to pull agro from ranged foes and distract them from squishier members of a team - hardly a situation were punchvoke is possible.
Many times I've managed to stop team mates from getting overwhelmed by foes running at them... and yes, by Taunting them, without Taunt that wouldn't have been possible.
So actually it is far from ignorant and very relevant - without it, I couldn't do my job properly. While I used the Stone tank as my example, it does apply to other Primary tank pools.
[/ QUOTE ]See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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oh yes, lol, i remember i told you it was kind of hard to herd with only gauntlet [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
I also remember saying that:
"anyone in front of me isnt falling back"
This week were doing synapse, I will have more tools at my disposal (like invincibility and a AoE attack) if youre looking for a opportunity to revaluation.
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I dont need to evaluate anyone except Maximillian on the pro "you dont need taunt camp":P. im kidding of course. I will check to see if i need synapse though. I have 7 heroes on union and i think i am basically looking at 1 citadel and 2 numinas and thats it. All 7 will be walking around with task force commander.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I recently joined a PuG, the tank was a Stone/Stone without Taunt, he relied upon mudpots to generate all of his agro and the only thing he managed to keep on him was 3 or 4 minions, 10-15 other foes went straight for the rest of the team - the outcome was a team wipeout - theres no way he could run to us and draw the agro away quick enough.
So no a Tank isn't a proper Tank without taunt, its a key skill required for a Tank to apply his trade.
[/ QUOTE ]I'd say that basing your conclusion on stone armor is kinda ignorant, since stone is the worst aggro holder.
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Stone is a bad recovery tanker early levels but its a great aggro holder if on a good team that works to help the stonetank keep aggro (if built to do it). It can become a good recovery tank in later levels though.
Icetanks get an aura early as well as kb and all the other mezz effect protections making it most definately the better "first" tank to have imo for recoveries and taunt control. Anyone new to coh and fancies making a new tank would definately get pointed in the direction of ice tanks by me.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I cant see how one can say that Invun is the one set that shouldnt take taunt. Its the one set that must. What can a level 1-17 tank without taunt add to a team other than taking the alpha strike and then acting as a half mast scrapper? why not just get a scrapper?
[/ QUOTE ]Keep aggro with punchvoke. Maybe not the whole spawn, but the foes that would be most dangerous for the team.
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Until you run out of endurance..
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
See, my concern is not JUST that taunt makes you a better tank (which it does)...
Its about psychology. And thats why I get anxious when i see a level 20+ tank withoutu taunt.
To my mind, there are two mindsets for a tank:
Mindset A:
Right, no-one is gonna die in my team unless a die first. Hell, no-one's health bar is gonna move but mine. Im gonna soak up every last bit of aggro. The team comes first. I jump in, I look around, check no ones being attacked before flailing away myself. Anyone taking damage - I stop attacking, and make damm sure they are safe. My job is to let all the other guyus do theres without panicking or worrying about themselves.
Am I gonna take taunt?
Mindset B:
LOL I am teh uber n1 c@n d34eat me !!!111!!!!!!!11!!. Im gonna punch these guys to oblivion. Look team, they cant hurt me. LOL you are so squishy, you are dying over there! LOL look at me Im still superhard. Weeee look at my punches. Im gonna kill this d00d who cant hurt me. LOL you guys are n00bs, you are getting debt. You should have chosen a tank, we never die. Im never gettind debt, no sirree!
Am I gonna tank taunt?
(PS This post is tounge in cheek. This thread needs a humour injection [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])
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Stone is a bad recovery tanker early levels but its a great aggro holder if on a good team that works to help the stonetank keep aggro (if built to do it).
[/ QUOTE ]Sure, stone can be very good aggro holder. It's still Worst in most situations, and only beats fire when foes are hard to hit.
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I wasn't talking about taking damage, I was talking about holding aggro, because that's what the person I was replying to had problems with.
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Actually I was talking about drawing agro, not holding it.
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Max, forget Stone, I was merely using that as an example, the argument about taunt is applicable to all primary sets. Any Tanker not taking it is denying themselves the one and only Ranged power available to them (pre EPP), a tanker with taunt can gather and hold more agro in the same time frame so foes are much less like to overwhelm fellow team members.
That's pretty much my point of view too.
I'm sure I could make a tank and tank well without taunt, because I am Mindset A. But why would I want to? Last time I built a tank I planned not to get taunt until 20 but I caved at level 12 and got taunt, because I really missed not having it. That was on an Ice tank too.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.
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I have found this technique possible on an ice tank. With the slows, it is possible to do short hops (1-2 seconds) out of the mob, punch, and dart back in again. Its pretty limited, but it is an option. Its certainly no substitutr for the 5 target auto hit taunt, but I have occassionally have to use it when taunt is recharging.
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.
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I have found this technique possible on an ice tank. With the slows, it is possible to do short hops (1-2 seconds) out of the mob, punch, and dart back in again. Its pretty limited, but it is an option. Its certainly no substitutr for the 5 target auto hit taunt, but I have occassionally have to use it when taunt is recharging.
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I agree this does work for an Ice tank, it works better if you have Hurdle and Combat Jumping and fast attacks.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.
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I have found this technique possible on an ice tank. With the slows, it is possible to do short hops (1-2 seconds) out of the mob, punch, and dart back in again. Its pretty limited, but it is an option. Its certainly no substitutr for the 5 target auto hit taunt, but I have occassionally have to use it when taunt is recharging.
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I agree this does work for an Ice tank, it works better if you have Hurdle and Combat Jumping and fast attacks.
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hmm, as long as you are fast enough (slotted swift/hurdle are playing with a kinetics [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) then this works for almost any tank... even better if you have some AOEs to use too...
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.
[/ QUOTE ]With my ice tank, I can move around with superspeed and keep aggro from 3 or 4 seperate groups (provided I don't hit aggro cap), with just CE. And that's with only one EndRdx in it, no taunt duration enhancers.
It is possible for any tank...
Its much easier for an Ice tank, because the mob you left is slowed and wont disperse.
Its much harder for a Stone Tank, and IMO effectively impossible for a granite.
(Lets take speed boost out of the equation for a moment).
Its still a risky strategy at best - dashing out of the cluster to punchvoke the straggler. Taunt is much more effective (auto hit, ranged, no endurance cost, hits 5). I only use it with my ice tank if absolutely necessary, because of the risk.
Any anyway, Are you mind set A or mindset B? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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Its much easier for an Ice tank, because the mob you left is slowed and wont disperse.
Its much harder for a Stone Tank, and IMO effectively impossible for a granite.
[/ QUOTE ]Agreed, the movement penalty really hurts stone, and I'd never try building a stone tank without taunt.
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Its still a risky strategy at best - dashing out of the cluster to punchvoke the straggler. Taunt is much more effective (auto hit, ranged, no endurance cost, hits 5).
[/ QUOTE ]And when there's two groups of 8 foes in different parts? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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Any anyway, Are you mind set A or mindset B? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
[/ QUOTE ]I'm mindset C, I keep foes under control, group them as well as the situation allows, and do my fair share of damage as well. I don't always keep full aggro, but that's fine, every AT can take a few hits.
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Any anyway, Are you mind set A or mindset B? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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the problem with that question is that... based on your tongue in cheek description of A or B I'm either a by the numbers person or an idiot. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
So, I'll go for MaX's mindset C.
I think we reached the bottom line in this issue weeks ago. Which was; no matter how good a tanker you are without taunt, you'll always be better with it, irrespective of what kind of tanker you are.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Any anyway, Are you mind set A or mindset B? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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the problem with that question is that... based on your tongue in cheek description of A or B I'm either a by the numbers person or an idiot. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
So, I'll go for MaX's mindset C.
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What, you mean you didnt fall for my psychological ploy of deviously ensuring you placed yourself in an artificial category and thus hung yourself?
Bah Humbug! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
Mindset A FTW! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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I think we reached the bottom line in this issue weeks ago. Which was; no matter how good a tanker you are without taunt, you'll always be better with it, irrespective of what kind of tanker you are.
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I agree. Who dosent?
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.
[/ QUOTE ]With my ice tank, I can move around with superspeed and keep aggro from 3 or 4 seperate groups (provided I don't hit aggro cap), with just CE. And that's with only one EndRdx in it, no taunt duration enhancers.
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As any tank i wouldnt want to have to flit around different groups and i dont like anyone dispersing groups that i herd. They are obviously lacking in the knowledge of why a tank maybe herding.
Maximum multihits = -fight duration, maximum debuffage = +survivability and -fight duration, tidy taunt control = +survivability and -fight duration and thus optimising the safety and creativity of others is why herding foes into a small group is a great idea and keeping them there. You get tper's that happily leave an aura and reappear a few yards away its not only much quicker to fire a taunt and taunt them back, you dont have to leave the main bulk of the herd and reherd mid battle. Taunt has a way better duration than what any aura does too. Id much rather not leave a debuff zone thats crucial to ensuring the survivability of not only my tank but the teams too and not allow any to become untaunted by my aura momentarily (they may then feel the debuff and start hitting on the debuffer). Even if foes even so much as get out a hold on a controller or defender it can change the tide of a battle as they are so influential. Even on my icetank despite having the best aura to have it doesnt consolidate aggro of more than 10 at a time, anything can happen in 2 seconds and id in a split group situation may have no choice but to keep the main bulk of a group herded to me 100% of the time and taunt anyothers.
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Mindset B:
LOL I am teh uber n1 c@n d34eat me !!!111!!!!!!!11!!. Im gonna punch these guys to oblivion. Look team, they cant hurt me. LOL you are so squishy, you are dying over there! LOL look at me Im still superhard. Weeee look at my punches. Im gonna kill this d00d who cant hurt me. LOL you guys are n00bs, you are getting debt. You should have chosen a tank, we never die. Im never gettind debt, no sirree!
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i see that alot, they are not tankers they are plankers but then so is anyone else not helping the tank.
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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.
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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.
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I have found this technique possible on an ice tank. With the slows, it is possible to do short hops (1-2 seconds) out of the mob, punch, and dart back in again. Its pretty limited, but it is an option. Its certainly no substitutr for the 5 target auto hit taunt, but I have occassionally have to use it when taunt is recharging.
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I agree this does work for an Ice tank, it works better if you have Hurdle and Combat Jumping and fast attacks.
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hmm, as long as you are fast enough (slotted swift/hurdle are playing with a kinetics [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) then this works for almost any tank... even better if you have some AOEs to use too...
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there is no substitute for taunt, its autohit, costs nothing, takes no risks and you dont have to wait for upto 2 seconds for a taunt pulse tick over. Sure debuffs are aggro gainers but so is peoples damage. Your gauntlet can miss and your taunt pulse can be late added to the run over to anywhere.
Mindset D
You are out to tank at the lowest levels possible this is mind set D, there is no "you cant tank till lvl 24" because people of any tanking AT are in there giving it a go asap. Taunt and aura asap these are the true full on, hardcore, hearts completely in it, tankers of the game.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I think we reached the bottom line in this issue weeks ago. Which was; no matter how good a tanker you are without taunt, you'll always be better with it, irrespective of what kind of tanker you are.
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I agree. Who dosent?
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At this specific point in my build I have to disagree. If I had taken Taunt then I would be left with 2 attacks until level 24. No matter what, I am suspicious of any AT who neglects either their primary or secondary powers.
Perhaps at later levels I will, but certainly there is no room for it before I get Hibernate (I love that power...)
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I think we reached the bottom line in this issue weeks ago. Which was; no matter how good a tanker you are without taunt, you'll always be better with it, irrespective of what kind of tanker you are.
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I agree. Who dosent?
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At this specific point in my build I have to disagree. If I had taken Taunt then I would be left with 2 attacks until level 24. No matter what, I am suspicious of any AT who neglects either their primary or secondary powers.
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You took an attack (secondary power) instead of taunt (secondary power) when the tank is about taunt control more than anything else. If your /mace or solo alot than team tank then i can understand. My tanks couldnt solo for toffee till 20ish but nor could my empath ever. So the fact my tank needed a team was no boohoo. Add to that 2 attacks is all you need especially if you have a damaging aura.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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At this specific point in my build I have to disagree. If I had taken Taunt then I would be left with 2 attacks until level 24. No matter what, I am suspicious of any AT who neglects either their primary or secondary powers.
Perhaps at later levels I will, but certainly there is no room for it before I get Hibernate (I love that power...)
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Er... taunt IS a secondary set? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Taking taunt over an attack WILL make you a worse tanker. It may give you more damage... it will certainly make you more soloable. But it will also make you a worse tank.
If you are talking taking taunt over a primary power (one which makes you more survivable), this is another matter.
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I recently joined a PuG, the tank was a Stone/Stone without Taunt, he relied upon mudpots to generate all of his agro and the only thing he managed to keep on him was 3 or 4 minions, 10-15 other foes went straight for the rest of the team - the outcome was a team wipeout - theres no way he could run to us and draw the agro away quick enough.
So no a Tank isn't a proper Tank without taunt, its a key skill required for a Tank to apply his trade.
[/ QUOTE ]I'd say that basing your conclusion on stone armor is kinda ignorant, since stone is the worst aggro holder.
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Taunt is necessary to pull agro from ranged foes and distract them from squishier members of a team - hardly a situation were punchvoke is possible.
Many times I've managed to stop team mates from getting overwhelmed by foes running at them... and yes, by Taunting them, without Taunt that wouldn't have been possible.
So actually it is far from ignorant and very relevant - without it, I couldn't do my job properly. While I used the Stone tank as my example, it does apply to other Primary tank pools.
Anyway, thats just my personal opion [img]/uk/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]