PvP 'skill' - about as much skill to ride a bike
By
Archy,
Posted on: 2006-04-09 11:47 in Everything about PvP
Does that actually matter? You can answer my question now - I see NB's build more geared towards PvP in general than mine, including fighting against an Ill/Rad. Don't you think?
World of Jackcraft.
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He used his PvE builds, he didnt respec yet. My point is there is loads more to PvP that just build and basic tactics.
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I definately agree there is more to PVP than just build and basic tactics, but once you get up there with the people who are deemed worthwhile opponents.. it does just get to be about fine-tweaking and rethinking approaches and whatnot. There is skill involved, but I would never call anything i've done or seen exactly "skillful" considering the norm. The game doesnt allow for a great deal of skill to be pumped into it, because of the automation. The only real mastery we are allowed to achieve, is over the tactics used, and the tweaking of the slots/powers to better work with other people.
Although, it becomes a different matter when there are more and more targets involved. With more teammates and out-of-team allies, and more opponents to face at a time, THAT is where the skill really starts to come in. Granted, even in mass combat you can do the skillless, numb, buttonmasher-style of play... but actually contributing towards the outcome of such battles (rather than simply hoping that it turns out alright for your team), thats were it gets interesting.
Im not very experienced in larger scale PVP, but its an interesting thought (with the idea of lag put to one side). Perhaps this is because im a controller, and my powers will have a pretty immediate effect on the flow of battle, but given time and experience in large-scale PVP, wouldnt it become somewhat routine and skillless for me again?
At the mo I am trying to level a EM/Nin stalker, MC/Ice Dom, Rad/Psi Defender (actually really alot of fun) and Ill/Rad Controller (why is it the devs in their wisdom decided to make the slow end of the game only reward you with powers every 3 levels?).
Takes a day to level to 14 but Ive played both Ice and Dev before and dont think I could stick with it till 22 
.
I think what QiSnake said makes alot of sense tbh, chances are since we are all posting so much on this forum we all have, to some extent a PvP mentality. When we go against someone who doesnt then it really shows but for me I usually take it that it was their lack of PvP experience or interest that won me the fight rather then a belief that I am that good. Maybe some of us feel there isnt much skill because thinking up sneaky ways to fight in teams and solo is second nature to us? Who knows.
Could be fun though some time for everyone to make one of the same ATs for a punch up, not to prove anything, but rather to brake up what, for me at least, can sometimes become routine playing.
On a side note it interests me why other people chose to PvP. For me its not to beat other people but rather because I like to see what I can think up and what sets work well with one another and against what.
How about you guys?
P.S. Why was it my comments exactly that you were fed up about? Seems to me I am only one of a few who wrote along the same lines.
One of my friends plays Counterstrike a lot. Others play a few different FPS or stealth games. Their claims of "skill" mostly come down to fast reflexes and having a very fast computer system. Oh, and knowing the levels inside out.
I don't have fast reflexes, nor am I great at pixel perfect mouse movements. One of those could (in theory) come with time, the other I am never going to be able to do for a variety of reasons.
I am very glad that PvP here isn't along those lines... although my (limited experience of it) pretty much backs up the original statements.
If someone in a PvP zone was giving it the whole "ph33r my m4d sk1llz!" routine then I would probably snigger a bit, but give them the benefit of the doubt. There is limited skill here (like you say, knowing builds and powers) but there is that little bit. And not being a complete klutz generally. I spent ages practicing running and superspeeding along the top of fences in-game because I thought it looked cool, and superjumping across power lines.. ;-) All skill, of a sort.
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One of my friends plays Counterstrike a lot. Others play a few different FPS or stealth games. Their claims of "skill" mostly come down to fast reflexes and having a very fast computer system. Oh, and knowing the levels inside out.
I don't have fast reflexes, nor am I great at pixel perfect mouse movements. One of those could (in theory) come with time, the other I am never going to be able to do for a variety of reasons.
I am very glad that PvP here isn't along those lines... although my (limited experience of it) pretty much backs up the original statements.
If someone in a PvP zone was giving it the whole "ph33r my m4d sk1llz!" routine then I would probably snigger a bit, but give them the benefit of the doubt. There is limited skill here (like you say, knowing builds and powers) but there is that little bit. And not being a complete klutz generally. I spent ages practicing running and superspeeding along the top of fences in-game because I thought it looked cool, and superjumping across power lines.. ;-) All skill, of a sort.
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people see "limited skill" in pvp zones because they don't look for who is killing them and don't see how little the "skilled" PvP'ers die in the zone, if it were like the arena where u see how many times u die and how many kills the winning team makes u wud see the extent of "skill"
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people see "limited skill" in pvp zones because they don't look for who is killing them and don't see how little the "skilled" PvP'ers die in the zone
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This is if you assume everyone is pouring every ounce of ability they have into a fight. In my experience, a lot of people go there to have fun, not to just get the best win/loss ratio. Some do go there to fight with their everything and try hard to survive at all costs. That explains why some people will only take part in a fight if they outnumber the enemy, or whether the enemy is already weakened, or will only engage a target who is already occupied with someone else, and the entire falling over themselves to run away when the odds swing a little against them. I dont have troubles with most tactics, because as it has been repeated so many times, they're valid tactics. Would the people who dont fight like that, be seen as unskilled by you guys?
Leave us gimped Ar/Dev blasters out of this 
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This is if you assume everyone is pouring every ounce of ability they have into a fight. In my experience, a lot of people go there to have fun, not to just get the best win/loss ratio. Some do go there to fight with their everything and try hard to survive at all costs. That explains why some people will only take part in a fight if they outnumber the enemy, or whether the enemy is already weakened, or will only engage a target who is already occupied with someone else, and the entire falling over themselves to run away when the odds swing a little against them. I dont have troubles with most tactics, because as it has been repeated so many times, they're valid tactics. Would the people who dont fight like that, be seen as unskilled by you guys?
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Ofcourse not, and you say it like this was implied...
Jupiter is slow looking into his notebook, but he always looks.
The [b]Retribution[/b] is coming.
[url="http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Valens_ii/"]Some of my toons[/url]
Comming to think of it Imaginary since I have an Ill/Rad getting on for level 50 we may as well arena on test when ive finished.
And after all this, if I beat you, does that mean there is skill in PvP here or not?
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Comming to think of it Imaginary since I have an Ill/Rad getting on for level 50 we may as well arena on test when ive finished.
And after all this, if I beat you, does that mean there is skill in PvP here or not?
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Hard to say I have never seen you play, but odds are on me since Im a seasoned PvPer. And odds are I would have heard about you before resently.
If you beat me, I would have to agree that there is limited skill involved in PvP.
Lets do it on test server, my ill / rad is build for pure PvE now and is quite gimped for PvP. But lets meet with our best dual builds on the test server and see what happends. Ill give you one advantage Ill post the build Im gonna use.
01) --> Spectral Wounds==> Acc(1) Acc(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(5) Rechg(7)
01) --> Radiant Aura==> Heal(1) Heal(7) Heal(9) Rechg(9) Rechg(11) EndRdx(11)
02) --> Blind==> Acc(2) Acc(13) Hold(13) Rechg(15) Rechg(15) Rechg(17)
04) --> Radiation Infection==> TH_DeBuf(4) TH_DeBuf(17) TH_DeBuf(19) DefDeBuf(39) DefDeBuf(39) EndRdx(40)
06) --> Accelerate Metabolism==> EndMod(6) EndMod(19) EndMod(21) Rechg(21) Rechg(23) Rechg(23)
08) --> Superior Invisibility==> EndRdx(8) EndRdx(25) EndRdx(25)
10) --> Enervating Field==> EndRdx(10) EndRdx(27)
12) --> Hurdle==> Jump(12) Jump(27) Jump(29)
14) --> Swift==> Run(14)
16) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(16) Jump(29) Jump(31)
18) --> Phantom Army==> Dmg(18) Dmg(31) Dmg(31) Rechg(33) Rechg(33) Rechg(33)
20) --> Lingering Radiation==> Acc(20) Acc(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(36) EndRdx(36)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(36) EndMod(37)
24) --> Super Jump==> Jump(24) EndRdx(37)
26) --> Spectral Terror==> Acc(26) Acc(37) EndRdx(39)
28) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(28)
30) --> Hasten==> Rechg(30) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
32) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(32) Run(42)
35) --> Assault==> EndRdx(35)
38) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(38) EndRdx(42) TH_Buf(42) TH_Buf(43) TH_Buf(43)
41) --> Power Blast==> Acc(41) Acc(43) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(46)
44) --> Temp Invulnerability==> DmgRes(44) DmgRes(46) DmgRes(46) EndRdx(48) EndRdx(50)
47) --> Power Boost==> Rechg(47) Rechg(48) Rechg(48)
49) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(49) Rechg(50) Rechg(50)
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
pointless arguement seemingly for the sake of it, fact is there is skill in everything that we do, most know how to write yet cannot write a book, most can run yet cannot break the 10 second barrier in the 100 metres race, some of us can solo Lusca yet most cannot, most can ride a bike yet most cannot do the tour de france.
Simple premise is this, there is skill in everything that we consciously do in life.
As for you and Imaginary fighting, surely a better premise would be for you to get a total pvp newbie and give him a great build Vs Imaginary and see how things turn out.
I see no point to this thread
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Would totaly agree, thing is though someone has called me out and suggested I would be a coward if I didnt fight. TBH I will be happy losing, I like PvP and have done for about 12 years now and the knowledge that ive fought against a better player and, hopefully, learnt something from it will mean at the end of the day I will feel Ive not lost out.
This is my present plan for my Ill/Rad, I havent read your yet as I am interested how they compare. I made a mistake on group invis and health I think but this was my 1st ever character and so far I am quite happy with it.
Epic so far I havnt chosen and vs another controller without backup I would be tempted to get Psi for Indom. Will. I dont intend to create the char purely to fight one person though so will probably go for Primal Forces for overall PvP.
My broken build should be:
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Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
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Name: Big Bob
Level: 50
Archetype: Controller
Primary: Illusion Control
Secondary: Radiation Emission
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01) --> Blind==> Acc(1) Acc(3) Hold(3) Hold(5) Rechg(5) EndRdx(7)
01) --> Radiant Aura==> Rechg(1) Rechg(7) Heal(9) Heal(9) Heal(11) EndRdx(46)
02) --> Spectral Wounds==> Acc(2) Acc(13) Dmg(13) Dmg(15) Dmg(15) EndRdx(17)
04) --> Radiation Infection==> EndRdx(4) DefDeBuf(17) DefDeBuf(19) TH_DeBuf(19) TH_DeBuf(21) TH_DeBuf(21)
06) --> Accelerate Metabolism==> Rechg(6) Rechg(11) Rechg(23) EndMod(23) EndMod(25) EndMod(25)
08) --> Hurdle==> Jump(8)
10) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(10)
12) --> Assault==> EndRdx(12) EndRdx(39)
14) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Health==> Heal(16) Heal(46) Heal(50)
18) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(18) EndRdx(27) TH_Buf(42)
20) --> Phantom Army==> Acc(20) Dmg(27) Dmg(29) Dmg(29) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
22) --> Enervating Field==> EndRdx(22) EndRdx(31)
24) --> Lingering Radiation==> Acc(24) Slow(33) Slow(33) Rechg(34) Rechg(34) EndRdx(34)
26) --> Spectral Terror==> Acc(26) Acc(36) Fear(36) EndRdx(37)
28) --> Group Invisibility==> Rechg(28) DefBuf(43) DefBuf(45) DefBuf(46)
30) --> Stamina==> EndMod(30) EndMod(37) EndMod(39)
32) --> Phantasm==> Acc(32) Dmg(33) Dmg(37) Dmg(39)
35) --> Hasten==> Rechg(35) Rechg(36) Rechg(40) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
38) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(38)
41) --> Power Blast==> Acc(41) Acc(42) Dmg(42) Dmg(43) Dmg(43) EndRdx(48)
44) --> Temp Invulnerability==> EndRdx(44) DmgRes(45) DmgRes(45)
47) --> Power Boost==> Rechg(47) Rechg(48) Rechg(48) EndRdx(50) EndRdx(50)
49) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(49)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> EndRdx(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Acc(1)
01) --> Containment==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Rechg(2)
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This is based upon I6, hopefully we can get together before I7 (and at at this rate I am pretty sure I could level 20 toons by then) but if not then it may change, I7 will after all be coming out on test 1st.
I am looking forward to this but would like to to make one condition and that is it is done without any bitter feelings on either side and purely on the grounds having fun.
And on a side note, since Ive always made the greatest effort to learn every aspect of every game Ive played I suppose, in a way, I would have to say skill is involved, otherwise why bother? 
Edit: For some reason I had 5 def debuffs in RI
Looking over it I would think yours is the better build esp movement wise and faster PA. Seems 3 recharge in blind is about .81 of a second faster then 1 (going by builder), may go for 2 but 3rd to me seems alot as we will be busy activating other powers and using insps.
Bah too tired, BED.
Do the fight on test. Respec before match (it wont cost you the respec). Whats the problem?
A Paragon Defender
The reason I get so mad about threads like this is that it gives IMO a completly wrong picture of PvP. It quickly just becomes an excuse for loosing. You had the best build, there is so much more to it.
Some examples:
Scrapper epics. The normal solution is allways body mastery for PvP.
This isnt quite the only truth, weapons mastery has very very good uses, because they get web granade which has -jump and -fly. Giving you melee toon a great chance to get into melee and get the kill unless the person your fighting also has superspeed.
This is an example of game knowlegde, a person who only has 14 days to learn wouldnt learn things like this. He simply havent seen enough of the game to make judgement calls like this.
Movement / reflexes. Getting that extra hit cause you have better reflexes or jumping in a way your opponent cant catch up with you. Being able to land right next to someone with bu used on the way down and ready to attack. This will often deside if your target can flee or you get the kill, or if you can safely run and your opponent misses the kill. Well using your own build, this can be taught in about 14 days.
Imagination: A good PvPer can use every single option he has and use them in different ways.
An example normally its a very bad idea to open with total focus if your a blapper, cause the animation time can easily get you killed. But sometimes wearing the target down from range isnt enough if there is a good healer arround. So you need to open with the hardest hitter you have in order to have enough damage to finish a person off in this case total focus. Its adapting with the weapons you have at your disposal. For an empath fort should allmost allways be given to the biggest damage dealer, but sometimes its worth giving it to another defender or a controller if they are very squishie. Its knowing when to break the normal attack paterns and think of something new.
The thing I think Chives is saying is that you can with some good guidence preforme really really well in PvPzones if you have a good build like spines regen, slotted for PvP.
What Im am saying is that there is a difference. In fight in the arena this is often the difference of winning 15 - 1 or 7 - 3. Yes you can quickly learn to win 7-3, but you really need skill to win 15 - 1 instead.
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
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What I see at the base of this thread, is people genuinely agreeing on some core aspects, but having different branches of thought on the matter. The REAL point of difference here, is the way we dice around with the terms, and the way we personally have come to think of that one word "skill". This may just end up being yet another agree to disagree thing, because once you stray into the zone of personal opinion, there isnt much you can do. Even then, I dont think we're here to convert one another to our own views anyway, right? 
[/ QUOTE ]You know, that sounds a lot like someone describing religion...
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If anyone can beat me, in fact, with a Claws Scrapper...
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It's really not difficult to take out a /Regen with Claws (in fact, the only Regen to best me in recent weeks was an EM/Regen Stalker - burst damage > me, but I really need a respec, so...). Hell, if you're still going to be around after I get Kuroshi to 50, I might even take you up on it.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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If anyone can beat me, in fact, with a Claws Scrapper...
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It's really not difficult to take out a /Regen with Claws (in fact, the only Regen to best me in recent weeks was an EM/Regen Stalker - burst damage > me, but I really need a respec, so...). Hell, if you're still going to be around after I get Kuroshi to 50, I might even take you up on it.
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I'll join you Syn.
No skill indeed, hah.
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pointless arguement seemingly for the sake of it, fact is there is skill in everything that we do, most know how to write yet cannot write a book, most can run yet cannot break the 10 second barrier in the 100 metres race, some of us can solo Lusca yet most cannot, most can ride a bike yet most cannot do the tour de france.
Simple premise is this, there is skill in everything that we consciously do in life.
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well put 
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I see no point to this thread
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Completely agreed. If everyone had just read my first post I believe it sums things up quite well.
illu/rad 1vs1 to decide this argument? You may aswell just go play rock paper scissors.
Play the game to enjoy it and let people have their own opinion.
Jupiter is slow looking into his notebook, but he always looks.
The [b]Retribution[/b] is coming.
[url="http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Valens_ii/"]Some of my toons[/url]
Well not so tired now, and not so annoyed about being called out as you did.
Ill/Rad fight, while perhaps interesting, would most likely end in a 0-0 draw esp. in a 10min fight.
Everyone has said their views and in the end its only a game so why really care?
Ill still be up for it at some point purely on the bases that I said I would.
Last post from me... I promise.
HAhahahaha, only just seen this thread.
I think people have just been had by the biggest wind-up merchant on union.
May have well started a thread entitled; " Hey Union, your all nimmers"
Hahahaha.
Intresting thread.. I think the OP is generally right, even if his vision went too far.
I think the point is...
This game got limits, limited number of useful skills, weird balance, just few sets are working others are totally gimps. buffs being too good, debuffs being worthless.
FOTMs in a sick way, standards.
There is NO art of makeing a build!! cos will be always similar to other builds.
No easy way to make a team build cos ppl tends to solo and play stuff which personally likes, so you cant tell to someone else to grind to lvl50 with a build you made.
And the fact I can fire a total focus while jumping 100 yards away from my target lol... (just an example)
But no reason to be sad, just play it for fun, this game is funny! Only sad thing is that this bad implemented pvp is changeing pve..
If you want a high competition pvp game go play Guildwars.. seriously.
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HAhahahaha, only just seen this thread.
I think people have just been had by the biggest wind-up merchant on union.
May have well started a thread entitled; " Hey Union, your all nimmers"
Hahahaha.
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Hehe, I don't really disagree with anyone at all, just made the thread to see what people thought 'skill' was.
I definately know there's a difference between a good player and a bad player, I mean, there are both good players and bad players out there let's face it there has to be something between them! But I'm not completely sure that's got anything to do with skill, or what I'd call skill, I'd more call it... cleverness (and build ).
World of Jackcraft.
Here is the build he used.
01) --> Lunge==> Acc(1) Acc(43) Dmg(43) Dmg(46) Dmg(46)
01) --> Fast Healing==> Heal(1)
02) --> Spine Burst==> Acc(2) Acc(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(40) Dmg(42) Rechg(43)
04) --> Reconstruction==> Heal(4) Heal(5) Heal(5) Rechg(39) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
06) --> Build Up==> Rechg(6) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) TH_Buf(37) TH_Buf(39) TH_Buf(39)
08) --> Impale==> Acc(8) Acc(9) Dmg(9) Dmg(36) Dmg(37) Rechg(37)
10) --> Quick Recovery==> EndMod(10) EndMod(11) EndMod(11)
12) --> Dull Pain==> Heal(12) Heal(13) Heal(13) Rechg(15) Rechg(15) Rechg(23)
14) --> Assault==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Integration==> Heal(16) Heal(17) Heal(17) EndRdx(23)
18) --> Quills==> Acc(18) Acc(19) Dmg(19) Dmg(21) Dmg(21)
20) --> Resilience==> DmgRes(20)
22) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(22)
24) --> Hurdle==> Jump(24) Jump(25) Jump(25)
26) --> Ripper==> Acc(26) Acc(27) Dmg(27) Dmg(34) Dmg(36) Rechg(36)
28) --> Instant Healing==> Heal(28) Heal(29) Heal(29) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
30) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(30) Jump(31)
32) --> Throw Spines==> Acc(32) Acc(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Rechg(34)
35) --> Revive==> Rechg(35)
38) --> Super Jump==> Jump(38)
41) --> Hasten==> Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
44) --> Focused Accuracy==> Rechg(44) Rechg(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(46)
47) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Acc(47) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(48)
He couldnt remember what level he took the powers but that doesnt really matter, he is lvl 48.
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr